Green Line Reconfiguration

Now the SE quadrant...yuck, I still see that as a godawful shitshow on a trolley because of what traffic horrors lurk at the Melnea Cass/Mass Ave. intersection and all points across the I-93 wasteland. Maybe we have to draw the line at a three-quarters Ring-ish thing and just make the Dudley-Southie leg a Silver Line BRT branch into the Transitway.

My assumption is that much of that last quadrant has to be an elevated above Melnea Cass, then drop down under the Expressway/Red Line/Old Colony en route to U/Mass. That might cost a bit compared to a street car solution, but it's straight forward, and I don't think there is much of a NIMBY constituency to oppose the elevated section.
 
My assumption is that much of that last quadrant has to be an elevated above Melnea Cass, then drop down under the Expressway/Red Line/Old Colony en route to U/Mass. That might cost a bit compared to a street car solution, but it's straight forward, and I don't think there is much of a NIMBY constituency to oppose the elevated section.

If anything you need to reverse that plan. Building an elevated train across M Cass Blvd is going to be seen as a Great Wall blocking Dudley from Boston. They already had an el here and when it was removed they were promised better service. An el is going to rub the wrong way. Then on the other side near the Expy/Red/Old Colony is the best place for an elevated train because no one lives there and you can just fly over all the existing infrastructure. The land is contaminated fill, why dig through that?
 
So, let's assume F-Line's Green LRT network is built, how weak are headways on the branches? Even with segregation in key parts of the system, certain areas will be crimped with trains coming through every two minutes. I was under the impression that 2 minute headways is the ceiling for smooth operations. Is this wrong?

For example... is the BU Bridge - Kenmore stretch going to cause headways on the feeders to suffer due to the number of lines? Say from Harvard, BC, Oak Sq, and at least two lines from the Grand Junction. That's getting heavy. What sort of max headways can the branches be looking at there? Would 5 branches only be able to manage 10 minute max headways, to keep the shared trunk at 2min headways?
 
So, let's assume F-Line's Green LRT network is built, how weak are headways on the branches? Even with segregation in key parts of the system, certain areas will be crimped with trains coming through every two minutes. I was under the impression that 2 minute headways is the ceiling for smooth operations. Is this wrong?

For example... is the BU Bridge - Kenmore stretch going to cause headways on the feeders to suffer due to the number of lines? Say from Harvard, BC, Oak Sq, and at least two lines from the Grand Junction. That's getting heavy. What sort of max headways can the branches be looking at there? Would 5 branches only be able to manage 10 minute max headways, to keep the shared trunk at 2min headways?

Hard to say, because the whole system is going to look different with the D being load-spread down both Kenmore and Huntington, Huntington being fed into Boylston not Copley, the Seaport getting some thru-service action from Huntington/BBY, and so on.

What you can reliably assume is that the balance at Kenmore is going to tilt much heavier in the B direction with the load-spreading, and that the B direction itself will be vastly higher-capacity with the subway extension. If you're assuming BU Central gets built as a 4-track station to set up the line split, then the single-file trip time before the branching traffic clears itself out is the equivalent of Kenmore-Hynes. That's a large capacity ceiling to serve the diverging points there.

So consider, out of Kenmore:

-- The surface B outbound from St. Paul portal now needs to serve many fewer riders as a branch with the mainline subway now covering BU east campus. If headways stayed flat vs. today it would do its job equally well and suck up all growth.

-- If the Oak Sq. and Boston College lines split the frequencies 50/50 at Packards Corner (which is what they used to do), they both would cover out to Harvard Ave. equal frequencies as the B today. Harvard Ave. being the last stop before B demand drops off a cliff. In reality it's probably going to be 55/45 or 60/40 Boston College vs. Oak Sq. because one's a streetcar and one's a reservation, but whatever. There'd be a reduction in service up the hill on the B, which is the lightest-ridership portion. But that can be counterbalanced by extending C's up Chestnut Hill Ave. or Reservoir-diverging D's up Chestnut Hill Ave. to match BC frequencies to today. So assume the hill is the only place that takes a hit. Arguably, the hill should take a hit today with beneficial installation of a short-turn track past Harvard Ave. So that may be old news by the time you build this.

-- Harvard's a shortie, and if it's going to live with a surface stub terminal for 20 years it'll have no more storage than Heath Loop does today. So E is the max frequency. Which is plenty good for, what, 3 or 4 stops at most after BU Central and 10 minutes at most to Harvard/Brattle Sq. from BU Bridge? You honestly could get by with a little bit less than that most hours of the day. It'll have more capacity to give when you build a river tunnel and go into the old Red Line tunnel with real tail-track storage...but we can't think about swallowing those kinds of expenses until much more important parts have been built downtown. Out-of-sight, out-of-mind...ceiling of E frequencies indefinitely.

-- The D gets boosted headways from 2 trunks, and it needs it because it's now feeding Needham. Both trunks hit Longwood, so the only stop that may take a headway hit is Fenway. That specific location in the Fenway is not at a loss for surrounding stations, so not that big a deal. I think if Fenway Center gets built out and the walking path connects the Emerald Necklace with Kenmore/Brookline Ave. the center of gravity is probably going to tilt more towards Kenmore just because the unbroken wall of destinations is easier to plow through starting from that end.

-- If you find some way to thru-route on the 'boomerang', which of course we're not making assumptions about...you don't touch any Central Subway mainline capacity so your B's-to-D's are nearly unlimited.

-- Given all this the traffic skew at Kenmore can change dramatically. Say it's 40/35/25 D vs. B vs. C today (I have no idea what it really is). Under this configuration is can go 50/25/25 B vs. D vs. C with C's being flat, D's being sharply reduced out of Kenmore but gaining MORE frequencies at the Brookline Vill merge (and functionally Longwood because it's flanked), and B's taking the spoils. The gained subway throughput on the +1 extension to BU Central with its orderly track split and elimination of all E traffic from Boylston to Copley raises the ceiling even further over today. Because now you can effectively pump to Kenmore what you used to only be able to pump to Copley. Grand Junction + Harvard gets all these gains, BC/Oak's share stays flat as described above.


Now consider, out of Brookline Village:

-- Needham needs some of the lowest headways on the system. I'd say 7 minutes at peak, 10-12 off-peak. This is a modest increase BV-Newton Highlands over regular D headways, but all of it functionally comes from the Huntington trunk which can do it.

-- D's get some boost from new demand to BBY and (a little bit) to South Station.

-- Circuit service Downtown-->BV-->Kenmore-->Downtown gets some demand, especially at peak. Maybe this ends up taking most of the Kenmore D slots, and it just becomes cleaner to route nearly all Riverside trains down Huntington. Whatever works.

-- Forest Hills streetcar can run at sparse headways, loop at Park St. It did in the old days; it can forking off BV and back-tracking to South Huntington. 7 minutes peak, 10 off-peak.


Out of Lechmere:

-- Union/Porter I would assume keeps flat headways for as long as Porter is the terminus since it's mainly a radial tie-in of other transit nodes like Red and 77, plus a Somerville Ave. de-clogger. If further branches to Waltham and Watertown are considered I would think Waltham would be no greater than Needham, and Watertown *moderately* greater by +1-2 minutes of frequency at most, not a whole lot different from the Oak Sq. line. Let's not get carried away: Arsenal St.'s tippy-top potential will never be Cambridge-level, not even if H2OTown scores the redev of its dreams on the scuzzy side of the street out to the Square. So figure the Union Branch's tippy-top ceiling is about equivalent to the B after it spits out of the St. Paul portal. Pleasantly brisk frequencies, but not brisk-brisk.

-- Medford probably grows a bit on raw demand and sees more growth.

-- Chelsea/Airport gets some big ridership demanding appropriate frequencies. BUT, you are routing a minority of those frequencies around the entire half-Ring. Maybe total frequencies go a bit higher than Medford because of that, but it would probably match Medford on frequencies out of Lechmere and the Central Subway.



South End: Obviously heavy heavy service, which makes that 4-track flying junction built 118 years ago a real lifesaver.

-- Washington St., being a streetcar, gets the lightest service. Better than Arborway, better than Oak Sq. But I would say not exceeding today's E just for the sake of dispatching sanity and fact that Dudley Sq. probably isn't going to have more than maybe Heath x2's amount of storage. They do, after all, need to store a shitload of buses at that terminal too so parking spots need rationing.

-- Assume something resembling today's D + E gets pumped out Downtown-Back Bay.

-- Assume something D-equivalent gets pumped out to the Seaport. And that the Seaport gets more overall augmented by BBY<-->South Station thru-routes.

^^Adjust ratios accordingly where you think the most growth is going to be. But you get the picture: Kenmore-level out to Tufts, and cherry on top of BBY<-->Seaport skipping downtown. Transitway is going to be nice and flush.



Central Subway:

-- Kenmore-Boylston: Significant capacity gains as noted by taking E's off Copley and throttling the D's out of Kenmore by slicing/dicing trunks. I like the 'circuit' service idea for rush hour mainly because it's so much easier to dispatch Boylston-->Kenmore-->BV-->TMC-->Boylston inside the CBD rather than all the way long-haul out to Riverside or Needham. So also consider the dynamics in play of short-turns and short-'circuits' for managing the loads at peak where demand is heaviest, then running things long-haul on the off-peak to keep up appearances on the fringes while keeping up frequencies on the trunks.

-- Park. Streetcars from Arborway and Oak: loop. Do not put them through the GC pinch. Remember: inner track is also a thru track now so you have traffic sorting at Boylston merge. I'd stick the Kenmores on the inner and South Enders on the outer. And just let tiny Arborway be the one that crosses traffic to loop.

-- Park-GC. Ooof. OK, this is a problem because of the tunnel expandability issue. Which is why you really really want to explore all options. Even if you can only wring THREE tracks of width, and make it 2 eastbound, 1 westbound (the mismatch being a traffic management thing for the routes at ends of their runs turning at GC)...that's a monumental improvement. Otherwise, I think you can get by but be prepared to do more Seaport-->Huntington and short-turning of trains inbound of Lechmere at GC/Brattle Loop.

-- GC-Haymarket. Reconfig GC station to split back into 4 tracks so you've got a third straight station with traffic separation. This mitigates the pinch between Park-GC a bit, which is why you can survive if it's not expandable. And it's doable. But if you can expand the Park-GC tunnel...you essentially have 2x the Central Subway capacity between Boylston merge and GC loop.

^^Lots of things should be looping at GC from the west. Washington St., and BC, for sure. Needham...sure. 'Circuit' service...sure.

-- Brattle Loop-Haymarket. I think Haymarket's easy enough to quad up for a 4th consecutive station with traffic sorting options, but you're largely home free at this point. Some stuff from the east like Grand Junction running 'circuit' GC-->Kenmore-->BU Central-->Lechmere should be looping at Brattle Loop and not continuing to Park.

-- North Station. Seaport-North Station rush-hour short-turns. The subway "North-South Link". Do it. Off-peak, maybe have Cleveland Circle revert to its traditional spot here and have South End stuff running longer-haul.

-- Lechmere. Some stuff will short-turn here on shift changes because of the carhouse, but otherwise whatever continues on from North Station is diverging somewhere past Lechmere.






It's rough, because so many moving parts are fitting together. And the traffic management is so very very very different than today because of the alternate trunks, alternate routings, re-shaped traffic, short-turns, reshaped by time-of-day traffic, etc. etc. It doesn't even remotely resemble today's Green Line because of the shape-shifting capability and ability to serve up destination pairs for any demand pattern. You don't necessarily even have to know today what those demand patterns are going to be, only where the blending can handle it.

But I think you can give everything headways no worse than today with no loss of mission-critical frequencies. And only one worrisome limiter: the Park-GC 2-track pinch. Which is augmentable by boosting on the couple routes (Huntington<-->Seaport, Brattle Loop<-->Lechmere diverging routes) that don't touch it...less-ideal as that sounds.
 
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I was looking on google maps trying to find an easy way to create an inner ring utilizing light rail on existing medians roads and bridges and came up with this. I will try to post pictures or a video later. This could create a one seat ride from Mattapan to Somerville.

* Get rid of the heath street turnaround and extend further down heath street
* Turn onto columbus ave following the center median stopping at jackson square * Keep following columbus ave with a station at washingon st
* Continue on to seaver st with a stop at humboldt ave
* Turn onto blue hill ave stopping at columbia rd, talbot ave, morton st (able to walk to morton st future indigo line)
* Stop at the library
* Stop at woodhaven st to link to a new indigo line station
* Continue further down blue hill ave and finally turning and connecting to the mattapan high speed line tracks.
* Utilize the Mattapan high speed line tracks until the stop connected with ashmont red line.

Your post inspired me to map three options for providing a radial linkage and serving the blue hill ave corridor. One option is dependent on a major expansion to the green line and is a crazy pitch the other is just a variation of your idea.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z-P0elakuhEs.kZQF5lkBrxjI&usp=sharing

I see option A as desirable in a full build mostly because it is in a reservation the whole trip although it is a little indirect. Option B I see as slightly less desirable because it involves street running and in a lot of ways is equivalent to option C.
 
While BHA is very tempting for a LRV line to Mattapan, that's a lot of length for dispatching into the central subway. 6 miles along the most direct route, which as citylover says, requires a lot of street-running. Such a line would be a nightmare to dispatch.

I think that Mattapan is best served by both converting the HSL to Red HRT and "Silver-Lining" the 28 bus, truncated at Dudley where it would meet the Green Line (via Washington Street).
 
To be honest I had kind of thought that as a super crazy pitch a way to fix the surface running issue with option A is that it could be tunneled from Dudley all the way to where it actually starts running on BHA but the expense involved would be considerable and at that point you might was well just tunnel to BHA along the more direct Warren Street route.
 
A full blown LRT subway replacement of the Washington St El (as far as dudley, and diverging to portal at BHA's median) would be pretty nice. Give it like 150 years.
 
From here

Fitchburg line would benefit from stop consolidation (Weston & Belmont). Part of a consolidation should include the extension of the trolley bus from Waverley to the new stop on Pleasant Street. I could even see that the consolidated stop would have Waverley at one of its ends and the new accessible entrance somewhere along Pleasant Street that would also be a location good for transit oriented development.

isn't the real solution for Belmont that the greenline come out from Union Square to:
California St
Porter Sq
Sherman St
Fawcett-Cambridge Park Drive
Brighton St (still in Cambridge!)
Belmont Center
Waverly
Beaver Brook

Ideally yes, Green would parallel Fitchburg and allow Fitchburg to do express runs inside 128. Don't stop at Beaver Brook though. Boot Fitchburg to the Central Mass and have Green take over Waltham. Waltham's the heavy hitter on inner Fitchburg. The extension wouldn't be worth the $$$ without it.
 
First proposed and studied in 1948.

Got a link?

I know the MTA received legislative approval in 1951 to bury the Wash El from Essex along Shawmut Ave, bend at the old siting of Arnold St to meet Wash St at Eustis, run under Dudely, and to an incline between Bartlett and Guild Sts where it would connect with the preserved El. In '52 the legislature approved new routing that would continue the subway to Valentine, where it would diverge from Washington to the west, run above (I believe, not sure) Columbus and Amory and run at-grade along the old NH mainline to Williams St in JP where it would connect with a small remnant of the old El and the old elevated FH station. The MTA has to spec out the engineering, land acquisition, and ops costs and it had to be possible below a proscribed price limit.

I've never found any of the actual engineering work done, but my hunch is that it was too expensive on spec and the interstate program (with SWC) fundamentally changed the way the State and MTA wanted to deal with the El and where it would go.
 
Got a link?

I know the MTA received legislative approval in 1951 to bury the Wash El from Essex along Shawmut Ave, bend at the old siting of Arnold St to meet Wash St at Eustis, run under Dudely, and to an incline between Bartlett and Guild Sts where it would connect with the preserved El. In '52 the legislature approved new routing that would continue the subway to Valentine, where it would diverge from Washington to the west, run above (I believe, not sure) Columbus and Amory and run at-grade along the old NH mainline to Williams St in JP where it would connect with a small remnant of the old El and the old elevated FH station. The MTA has to spec out the engineering, land acquisition, and ops costs and it had to be possible below a proscribed price limit.

I've never found any of the actual engineering work done, but my hunch is that it was too expensive on spec and the interstate program (with SWC) fundamentally changed the way the State and MTA wanted to deal with the El and where it would go.

I will have to dig for the link.
 
Got a link?

I know the MTA received legislative approval in 1951 to bury the Wash El from Essex along Shawmut Ave, bend at the old siting of Arnold St to meet Wash St at Eustis, run under Dudely, and to an incline between Bartlett and Guild Sts where it would connect with the preserved El. In '52 the legislature approved new routing that would continue the subway to Valentine, where it would diverge from Washington to the west, run above (I believe, not sure) Columbus and Amory and run at-grade along the old NH mainline to Williams St in JP where it would connect with a small remnant of the old El and the old elevated FH station. The MTA has to spec out the engineering, land acquisition, and ops costs and it had to be possible below a proscribed price limit.

I've never found any of the actual engineering work done, but my hunch is that it was too expensive on spec and the interstate program (with SWC) fundamentally changed the way the State and MTA wanted to deal with the El and where it would go.

The report was: Greater Boston Development Committee's 1948 report "Surging Cities". That year the legislature allocated $18 Millions to subway the Main Line (Orange Line) El south of downtown as far as Cedar Street in Roxbury. But then Urban Renewal hit and highways became the priority.

Referenced about 3/4 of the page down in:

http://www.bostonstreetcars.com/the-growth-of-boston-rapid-transit.html

Paper copies of "Surging Cities" are available in several local libraries (MIT, Suffolk, Boston Athenaeum, UMass Boston, Simmons...). I cannot find an online (scanned) version.
 
Ah okay, thanks I'll see if I can dig that out one of these days.

I was just questioning whether it was studied as a Light-Rail link all the way back in 40's. Appears it was still conceived as heavy-rail at that point. Thanks for the info nonetheless, I've been culling as many of these plans as I can over the past few years - a lot of good ones to be had on archive.org as well, but I can't find the "Surging Cities" report either.
 
Ah okay, thanks I'll see if I can dig that out one of these days.

I was just questioning whether it was studied as a Light-Rail link all the way back in 40's. Appears it was still conceived as heavy-rail at that point. Thanks for the info nonetheless, I've been culling as many of these plans as I can over the past few years - a lot of good ones to be had on archive.org as well, but I can't find the "Surging Cities" report either.

The light rail option emerged in the early 50's -- pretty much what F-Line continues to propose, using the Tremont Street Spur out of Boylston to go on down Washington Street as surface rail. Very early in the urban renewal planning the Main Line (Orange Line) was planned for rerouting down the southwest rail corridor (It was to run in the median of I-95).
 
The light rail option emerged in the early 50's -- pretty much what F-Line continues to propose, using the Tremont Street Spur out of Boylston to go on down Washington Street as surface rail. Very early in the urban renewal planning the Main Line (Orange Line) was planned for rerouting down the southwest rail corridor (It was to run in the median of I-95).

Yeah, you know what I'd really like to know - and wasn't going to ask, but now you've peaked my interest - is when exactly that option became the operative solution rather than a subway. We can place the SWC realignment idea to the early fifties, but after '52, but with the LRV...I'll go over that streetcars link you provided, probably a ballpark year in there.
 
Long-time lurker, first-time poster.

What would a plausible scenario look like for converting the Green Line to something resembling the Blue Line? Since the Blue and Green lines both used to service streetcars, I think this is the most "realistic" scenario for a heavy rail conversion. What would service look like? Would the B and C stay surface light rail and turnaround at Kenmore? Would the Boylston curve (and Boylston Station) need to be replaced? What about the tight turns at Park Street? How would you phase construction of such a conversion? Closing the tunnel would be a shit-show, and how would you raise platforms to meet heavy rail vehicle floors while light rail is in service? Do you build a parallel tunnel nearby or even underneath and start over? Questions, questions.
 
Long-time lurker, first-time poster.

What would a plausible scenario look like for converting the Green Line to something resembling the Blue Line? Since the Blue and Green lines both used to service streetcars, I think this is the most "realistic" scenario for a heavy rail conversion. What would service look like? Would the B and C stay surface light rail and turnaround at Kenmore? Would the Boylston curve (and Boylston Station) need to be replaced? What about the tight turns at Park Street? How would you phase construction of such a conversion? Closing the tunnel would be a shit-show, and how would you raise platforms to meet heavy rail vehicle floors while light rail is in service? Do you build a parallel tunnel nearby or even underneath and start over? Questions, questions.

We will have space elevators and flying cars before any of the subway lines get reconfigured for new types of vehicles.
 
It's a crazy transit-pitch, given it involves widening tunnels under the undocumented Back Bay fill with unknown water-table and unmapped utilities, yadda, yadda, yadda.

If the crazy pitch happened it would probably look like the Blue Line part of the BussesAin'tTrains proposal below. It's probably just as cheap (as in not cheap at all), and more beneficial to keep the Green Line as light rail and add a Riverbank Blue Line:

Crazy Transit Pitch

EDIT: TANGENT: bring something new to the conversation and stop with your worn-out anti-transit schtick. You lost all credibility the second you proposed getting rid of all other kinds of transportation and paving over everything for automobiles. 1970 called, and they said: "1955 called."

EDITX2: Welcome to the forum, Nick!
 

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