It's my Tea Party and I'll cry if I want to.

itchy

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I'm tired of reading arguments that are just trash all over the page, and thinking to myself, "that's an American voter. No wonder our country is f*cked up."

Not entirely sure what that refers to.

Moving away from the specifics of that claim and speaking a bit more broadly, spend some time living abroad and American voters may come to seem quite intelligent.

I've been wondering to myself lately, what if people had to be qualified to vote? Not an I.Q. test, but maybe a basic spelling test, at the very least?

Literacy tests have been tried before. They were a hallmark of Jim Crow.

The "smartest" people aren't necessary the ones most likely to cast their ballots in a way that benefits them, or others. Oliver Goldsmith expressed this intriguingly:

Ill fares the land, to hastening ills a prey,
Where wealth accumulates, and men decay:
Princes and lords may flourish, or may fade;
A breath can make them, as a breath has made;
But a bold peasantry, their country's pride,
When once destroyed can never be supplied.

Anyway, that's my hungover warbling for the morning... Any news on Filene's?
 
Re: Filene's

I've been wondering to myself lately, what if people had to be qualified to vote? Not an I.Q. test, but maybe a basic spelling test, at the very least? I'm tired of reading arguments that are just trash all over the page, and thinking to myself, "that's an American voter. No wonder our country is f*cked up."

Based on tea party pictures, I demand that to vote you must be able to explain the differences between socialism, communism and fascism.

Obama cant be all three, damn it.
 
Re: Filene's

Yeah, itchy, I was being a little bit facetious. It's just all the rhetoric that the Tea Party has been using that pisses me off.
 
Re: Filene's

Based on tea party pictures, I demand that to vote you must be able to explain the differences between socialism, communism and fascism.

Obama cant be all three, damn it.

He's not. He's just a socialist.
 
Re: Filene's

He's not. He's just a socialist.

Just by degrees. After all, when you think about it, you're a socialist too, right? You like your secure homeland, clean streets, low crime, social security, and safe food & drugs, right?

Sames as all of us.
 
Re: Filene's

Yeah, itchy, I was being a little bit facetious. It's just all the rhetoric that the Tea Party has been using that pisses me off.

I was in DC on April 15. I was there to visit a client that is a federal government agency, but I caught sight of the Tea Party crowd while eating in Union Station and, subsequently, walking to and from the agency. They were both nerdier (lots of people in costume) and kindlier/friendlier than I would have imagined. Abundant smiles, friendly encounters with random strangers, and children in tow. Generally middle-age (early or late); they looked like a suburban block party with American and "Don't tread on me" flags.

The signs mostly said something along the lines of, "We want less government," which didn't strike me as particularly controversial. Some mentioned Obama, but they were fairly tame.

If you compare this to the sort of anti-Bush rallies that we had just a few years ago, it's astounding how calm and toned-down the Tea Party types are, even accounting for the occasional "birther" who may attend their rallies (and I didn't notice any in DC). Yet if you juxtapose the media's reaction to one versus the other alongside that fact, I'm personally a bit shocked ... and embarrassed for the "honest-brokers" in the media.

I find it difficult not to have sympathy for the Tea Party people -- they see an exploding deficit, a government that appears to have little accountability, and new areas of life and commerce declared to be the government's realm, all of which they themselves will be footing the bill for at some point or other. Some may favor those things, but they are certainly legitimate grounds for protest (other than war, I don't know what else might be more legitimate). In a popular sovereignty, if people feel the government is growing unaccountable, if they don't speak out, no one will.

I can't even imagine people taking that initiative, or caring that much about their country's future, in other places I've lived; for the most part, the average person in most European countries (and presumably elsewhere) has little idea how their government works, how it is funded, or what its legitimate scope of responsibilities is. I'd venture to say that Americans, and especially the Tea Party crowd, are quite impressive in their civic-mindedness and informedness.
 
Re: Filene's

^^All of which would have been impressive if they cared one bit about these problems prior to January 20, 2009.
 
Re: Filene's

^^All of which would have been impressive if they cared one bit about these problems prior to January 20, 2009.

Exactly. This makes them appear completely disingenuous.

These people are complaining about spending, yet have said nothing about spending a trillion dollars on a war in Iraq that was started under false pretenses.

They are complaining about government health care, yet many of them (or their parents) are on Medicare - which IS government health care.

They are complaining about financial reforms, yet it is the small investors, the average citizens, that will be more protected by reform of Wall Street.

They are responding to right-wing fear mongering without taking the time to check the facts. The rich are getting richer and preying on the fears of the uneducated to push their agenda. You have to be pretty narrow minded and uninformed to take the word of the likes of Rush and Beck as the truth.

Forgive me, I generally dislike political discussion on an architectural board (and I consider myself politically moderate - a shrinking class).

It's just that this Tea Party thing boggles the mind. I've never seen so many people rally against their own best interests. It's like the Serfs taking to the streets screaming "more money for the Nobility."

/rant
 
Re: Filene's

Just by degrees. After all, when you think about it, you're a socialist too, right? You like your secure homeland, clean streets, low crime, social security, and safe food & drugs, right?

I think there are two questions at play that are quite significant, and which you ignore:

1) Socialism generally refers to moving from private, exchange-based control of economic transactions and toward public, use-based control of them.

I'm going to assume that when Obama is called a socialist, people are referring to ObamaCare, the stimulus or other major legislative initiatives (including, e.g., "cap and trade").

All of these initiatives do (or would) indeed move spheres of human activity from the private realm to the public sector. Indeed, federal government spending has jumped from the traditional post-WWII level of 20% of GDP to 25% this year, and budget projections going forward expect it to remain there.

You refer to, and implicitly label markers of socialism, certain other government programs, namely the military, sanitation departments, police forces, Social Security and food-safety standards.

It's true that those areas do involve government control of resources, and in a sense they may be "socialist." I think the issue for many people is the degree, and quality, of that public-sector control of resources. Few people, including those in the Tea Party (given that recent polls show the Tea Partiers are not significantly less comfortable with current levels of taxation than are other Americans), would like to see government eliminated; that would be anarchy.

The question, instead, is what areas of human activity government should play a prominent role in. Traditionally, America has had the military (at the federal level) and police forces (at the local level) placed under government's ken. There is good reason for this: Unlike any other entity or human organization, government can resort to physical detention and force to enforce its objectives; as such, it has overseen force-based law-enforcement and security mechanisms.

I think the other areas are palatable to people for various reasons as well: Food-safety standards, like any regulatory system, involve central oversight with the ability to punish (backstopped by force, if need be) violations, including and especially those coming from abroad -- given Congress' function to oversee commerce among the several states, this is a fairly natural place for federal oversight. Sanitation departments, like police forces, are always administered at the local level and don't involve federal powers. And Social Security is a "flat tax," meaning that it pays out to pensioners what they put in.

I think that people, Tea Partiers and the rest of us, may be fine with those things -- and many others. But with total government spending (federal + state + local) at ~40% of GDP, the concern is less for today and more for what is to come.

What distinguishes many of Obama's initiatives, and what many people find dubious about them, is that they would entail a fairly large expansion of power for the federal government, as well as large amounts of funding, either to achieve goals that not all agree with, or to achieve them in a way that not all agree with.

As an illustration of this, there are legitimate concerns that, while expanding insurance coverage is an obvious good, ObamaCare will do it in a way that unnecessarily raises costs for those who are insured and may ultimately put the entire existing system at risk, potentially leading to a government "rescue" of healthcare by moving toward a single-payer system.

Another area in which the Obama agenda differs from the programs you list and has more in common with, e.g., Medicaid, is that much of it (ObamaCare, much of the social spending in the stimulus, an ever-increasing timeframe for unemployment benefits) is redistributive -- it takes disproportionately from high-earners and gives back disproportionately to low-earners. Military, law-enforcement, the FDA and sanitation benefit all equally; and Social Security is a flat tax where all pay the same proportion into it. A redistributive transfer system, however, acts to penalize success for the sake of failure (crudely, but accurately, putting it), thereby disincentivizing the former and making the latter a more-palatable option for people. In its rejection of meritocratic, exchange-based systems, that is much more "socialist" than many of the more-popular areas of government responsibility at present.

Whether the programs Obama is proposing/advocating are needed, or would be beneficial to American citizens, is a fair question, as is whether government should have a greater degree of control, and the private sector less control, over these areas. One can argue without being a fool that economies that have greater degrees of socialization (in Western Europe, e.g.) see economic growth stagnate and unemployment plateau at a level more than twice of what we have historically had in the US (~9% vs. ~4%). I don't think anyone worried about those sorts of things is necessarily a fool, extremist, racist, or hick.

2) Secondly, I think that the general level of spending -- and how it will be paid for -- is a large concern that is short-sighted to dismiss. In Obama's first year, deficits exploded by a trillion dollars to $1.4 trillion, meaning the deficit alone was more than half the total 2007 US budget (see here for a good chart showing deficits/surpluses in recent years).

While some of this spending is deficit-caused and temporary, the big takeaway is that deficits are never again expected to be less than $650 billion, and after 2020 they're expected to drop again, never closing up to less than $800 billion (versus a high of $480 billion in 2004 for Bush, who, yes, was a shitty-ass president but closed the deficit to $188 billion by 2007).

Given a future of permanent deficits and government spending increasing 25% as a proportion of GDP, common sense tells us that somebody, somehow, is going to be called to pay for these things. Governments generally finance themselves via one of two ways (or both): deficits and taxes.

If you pursue the former route and pile on the debt, at a certain point people have to begin to ask when you're going to pay all of your debts back. As a sovereign borrower, the interest rates demanded of you by your creditors rise accordingly. And those higher interest rates are passed down through the entire economy, making it more difficult for businesses and individuals to receive credit, stultifying economic growth. No good.

As for taxes, if I'm a rational human being, why do I want to pay increased taxes for a plan that throws an estimated $250 billion per annum at subsidizing healthcare costs for 30 million people ($10,000 per person per annum!), is likely to raise costs for everyone, and may well break the entire existing system, leaving me with higher taxes, more expensive health insurance and the possibility that the whole thing breaks apart?

What we're seeing is socialized cost-sharing (and risk-taking) at a level that we previously didn't have. Is that "socialism"? Given its reliance on the state taking a larger share of the economy, disincentivizing productive economic activity, and redistributing wealth, it's not so crazy to call it that, even if you like Social Security (which is also on the brink of insolvency) or the army.

Is it legitimate to argue in favor of those things? Yes. But is it legitimate to protest against them, even if you're wearing a Ben Franklin hat and/or cowboy boots? I sure hope so.
 
Re: Filene's

Exactly. This makes them appear completely disingenuous.

They are responding to right-wing fear mongering without taking the time to check the facts. The rich are getting richer and preying on the fears of the uneducated to push their agenda. You have to be pretty narrow minded and uninformed to take the word of the likes of Rush and Beck as the truth.

This is what is off-putting about the direction this country is headed in: From the president's own rhetoric, down to that of people who support his agenda, there's a distinct sense that there is one truth, and Obama is in possession of it.

Bush sounded a similar note -- though it was about the somewhat-less-controversial issue of terrorism and being "with us or ag'inst us" -- and was vilified (rightly so -- I hated the guy and volunteered for a number of months for Obama) for it.

Today we have legitimate philosophical questions being debated, and those who take the opposition side are branded as liars and brainwashed zombies. It is a dangerous turn of events when, rather than engage in debate, people resort to ad hominem attacks and assumptions about the very legitimacy of the other side.

These people are complaining about spending, yet have said nothing about spending a trillion dollars on a war in Iraq that was started under false pretenses.

Yes, Bush was a bastard and the Iraq War was a lesson in deceit. I don't know what each Tea Party participant thinks of him or of that war, but I -- as someone who sees the Tea Partiers as a legitimate, vital phenomenon -- think he was bad for deficits and bad for the country.

With that said, just because Bush spent a trillion dollars for 10 years of war (which was bad) doesn't mean it's not bad that Obama now wants to spend $3 trillion for 10 years of a new entitlement that is supposed to cover a mere 30 million people (and that's the listed price!).

Given the fact that national security is a far more established government end than buying the middle class health insurance -- not to mention the fact that at a time of economically sunny skies and small deficits there was much less concern about deficit spending for obvious reasons than today -- I think this particular line of argumentation (Bush spent a trillion, so you can't complain if Obama spends as much as he wants!) is unconvincing.

They are complaining about government health care, yet many of them (or their parents) are on Medicare - which IS government health care.

I'm much happier giving old people entitlements to allow them to enjoy their last years than I am creating huge new entitlements for the middle class. Children and the elderly are helpless; that's not the case for the family of four earning $100K (or even $30K). Also, we pay into Medicare knowing that we'll have it one day. With ObamaCare, the insured are going to pay into it in order to benefit other people -- I'm happy giving to charity, but I hardly think it's "bogus" to be wary of large entitlements that take from workers in order to subsidize not their own retirement but the expensive health insurance of other workers.

Still, even if Medicare does philosophically sound more palatable to you, there's no denying the fact that it's, er, bankrupt. Or that it has played a large role in the considerable health-costs inflation we've seen since the '60s. Does it really provide a model -- fiscal insolvency, pushing up costs for all as you have more people able to get "free" care -- for a new entitlement?

They are complaining about financial reforms, yet it is the small investors, the average citizens, that will be more protected by reform of Wall Street.

With its $50bn bank bailout fund, Dodd's current plan encourages moral hazard and the notion of too-big-to-fail. It disincentivizes banks from being responsible businesses, as the government backstop will now be enshrined in law, and its upshot is that there is no real cost banks will pay if they take on excessive risk.

Wall St. reforms are necessary, but the current plan is a sop to the biggest banks and does little to stop the recklessness that led to the events of Sept 15, 2009.

It's just that this Tea Party thing boggles the mind. I've never seen so many people rally against their own best interests. It's like the Serfs taking to the streets screaming "more money for the Nobility."

Getting stuck with a $3 trillion bill (at the minimum) to provide some people with health insurance at the price of $10K per year per person, all of which is likely to make costs rise for those of us who have insurance and put the entire system at risk for various reasons ... that doesn't sound like it's in my interests.

I'm sure you disagree with the likely effects of ObamaCare, and I hope you're right, but your certainty about your position doesn't entitle you to compare other people worried for good, mathematical reasons about their own interests to "unwashed Russian peasants demanding more money for the people who force them brutally to labor, scythe in hand, till their dying day." I think the Tea Party does a hell of a job understanding and defending its self interests, and I recognize your right to disagree.

Forgive me, I generally dislike political discussion on an architectural board (and I consider myself politically moderate - a shrinking class).

Calling people with legitimate political concerns "narrow-minded," "uninformed" and dismissing their often rather well-thought-out notions as a "response to right-wing fear-mongering" doesn't sound very moderate to me (nor does it make me think you really don't like to engage in political discussion!).

Take some time to consider the fact that, while you may not agree with people, they might have very legitimate reasons to think that the current political agenda is not one that is likely to help their own interests -- after all, who is to say that he understands the self-interests of another better than that man himself? If there were someone so enlightened that he did, why would we need democracy (at least for those darn Tea Party morons) at all?

So ... any news about Filene's?
 
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Re: Filene's

I'm not going to bother reading any of that. Can we talk about Filene's again?
 
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Re: Filene's

As an illustration of this, there are legitimate concerns that, while expanding insurance coverage is an obvious good, ObamaCare will do it in a way that unnecessarily raises costs for those who are insured and may ultimately put the entire existing system at risk, potentially leading to a government "rescue" of healthcare by moving toward a single-payer system.

Do we have a single-payer system? No. Does Obama advocate one? Probably deep down in his heart, but he's no socialist if he doesn't have the balls to take a consistent stand for the only genuine form of "socialized medicine".

Whether the programs Obama is proposing/advocating are needed, or would be beneficial to American citizens, is a fair question, as is whether government should have a greater degree of control, and the private sector less control, over these areas. One can argue without being a fool that economies that have greater degrees of socialization (in Western Europe, e.g.) see economic growth stagnate and unemployment plateau at a level more than twice of what we have historically had in the US (~9% vs. ~4%). I don't think anyone worried about those sorts of things is necessarily a fool, extremist, racist, or hick.

Yes, and the greater inequity within economies that have lesser degrees of socialization is also something one can intelligibly worry about.
 
Re: Filene's

I think there are two questions at play that are quite significant, and which you ignore:

1) Socialism generally refers to moving from private, exchange-based control of economic transactions and toward public, use-based control of them.

Boy that's a long post. will read it, soon. :)

This statement doesn't jibe w/what i can remember of my economics studies -- but i was always a poor student. Maybe you could throw down some citations to jog my memory?
 
Re: Filene's

(time to move this thread, right? ;)

A redistributive transfer system, however, acts to penalize success for the sake of failure (crudely, but accurately, putting it), thereby disincentivizing the former and making the latter a more-palatable option for people. In its rejection of meritocratic, exchange-based systems, that is much more "socialist" than many of the more-popular areas of government responsibility at present.

Have to vigorously disagree w/you here. That's one description of a redistributive system, but not necessarily the most accurate and certainly not the only one.

The distribution of wealth is, like essentially everything we're talking about, a market externality. If a relatively even distribution of wealth is considered a social good (and it widely is) it's not enough to sit back and wish for it because the market can not be expected to deliver, anymore than the market will deliver the optimal amount of public defense.

Now clearly the distribution of wealth of, say, sixteenth century London, and the social framework ensuring that distribution of wealth, was disincentivizing for some people -- actually most people. In fact, the situation contributed to armed factions, intrigue and regicide. So that can't be right for us.

The redistributive systems of some other times & places has been disincentivizing in other ways. The expropriation and oligarchic nuttiness of Russia in the past 10 years is one interesting case. i suspect we don't want that system.

Also interesting is the relatively even distributions and even handed distributive systems of Taiwan in the 2nd half of the 20th century, and Beijing's distribution of wealth to China's peasants at the end of the 20th century, in both cases acting as the kerosene in the belly of the dragon. Part of what makes people afraid that the PRC's project will end badly is actually that the distribution of wealth is becoming less even and in destabilizing way.

Are Russian oligarchs living in a meritocracy? Do the Chinese really want more politically-empowered princelings and less egalitarianism? Would changing either of those systems to be more redistributive light a match?

More importantly, are we wanting to live in a permanent gilded age? Do we aspire to having a bunch of Oliver Twists running around with blackened faces? Do you think Oliver Twist will work harder and eventually succeed if and only if the answer to "please, sir, may I have another" is heck no?

Does it do us collectively much good that our CEO's make so much more than their lowest paid workers? If you think so, why doesn't it work that way in Korea, Singapore, the entire EU, Japan, or really anywhere else? Does it make our political process work better that we have so many millionaires and billionaires competing for public office. Is it part of the social good that your freedom of speech and political access is far less than the top 2% of the country's wealth-holders? Actually, it's probably you, right? -- maybe if you just worked a little bit harder...

The distribution of wealth is more complicated than you think. And it isn't a matter of what you like or don't like -- the degree to which we redistribute wealth is a big economic issue of critical importance to generations, not one that you can sum up in that kind of one liner. It's not about taking anything from you or me, or people like you and me -- you and me are just not that important, in the big picture.

It's about getting the balance of opportunities, incentives, legal constraints, political and economic power and investment right. And saying it's all about the incentives and preferences that get you personally out of bed in the morning is really asking the tail to not only wag the dog but also do your calculus homework for you.
 
Re: Filene's

Well, the socialists at British Airways have just asked their government to bail them out of the Icelandic volcano fiasco to the tune of 30 million pounds a day, or 150 million so far.

I guess this is income redistribution from the taxpayer to the fat cats. Isn't that the way it's gone recently?

Is the government bailing out the likes of AIG and Citicorp really socialism?

Associated Press said:
BA Chief executive Willie Walsh said European airlines have asked the EU and national governments for financial compensation for the closure of airspace. He pointed to a precedent: compensation paid to airlines after the closure of U.S. airspace following the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks...
... by the American socialist regime at the time.
 
Re: Filene's

The signs mostly said something along the lines of, "We want less government," which didn't strike me as particularly controversial. Some mentioned Obama, but they were fairly tame.

If you compare this to the sort of anti-Bush rallies that we had just a few years ago, it's astounding how calm and toned-down the Tea Party types are, even accounting for the occasional "birther" who may attend their rallies (and I didn't notice any in DC). Yet if you juxtapose the media's reaction to one versus the other alongside that fact, I'm personally a bit shocked ... and embarrassed for the "honest-brokers" in the media.

The problem doesn't lay with a few 'outliers' holding signs, it is with the people who are vetted and are invited to speak at Tea Party events.
From a recent South Carolina rally:

A Tea Party rally in Greenville, South Carolina over the weekend took some of the Tea Party's violent rhetoric to new levels, with speakers attacking everything from President Obama's citizenship to Sen. Lindsey Graham's sexuality.

[snip]

The event took place at the Bi-Lo Center in Greenville, and featured former Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO) as its keynote speaker. Tancredo, who ran for the Republican presidential nomination in 2008, said that Americans are "going to have to pray that we can hold on to this country." He added, referring to President Obama: "If his wife says Kenya is his homeland, why don't we just send him back?"

Pastor Stan Craig, of the Choice Hills Baptist Church, was particularly angry about the state of Washington, saying he "was trained to defend the liberties of this nation." He declared that he was prepared to "suit up, get my gun, go to Washington, and do what they trained me to do."

Again, these weren't random people plucked out of the crowd and interviewed by the 'honest-brokers', but invited speakers. If you can find an equivalent to this type of rhetoric from anti-Bush events, hit us up with a link.

I trust you when you say you've had a positive experience with the North East area Tea Party folks. I know one myself and she is a very sweet lady, but the other side of the movement is a huge problem for people like her and yourself. Just sweeping them under the rug and calling them 'fringe' (or worse, 'liberal plants' - the new meme) doesn't do anybody any favors. These people need to be denounced publicly, loudly and often if the Tea Party want to gain any kind of foothold among the mainstream.
 

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