Liberty Mutual Tower | 157 Berkeley Street | Back Bay

Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

It's not 1,000 permanent jobs; it's 500 construction jobs and 600 permanent, estimated.

However, that doesn't tell the full picture.

It is Liberty Mutual that is estimating hiring 600 new employees. They will be leasing out up to 75% of the property, when built, and taking over space as they expand.

They say they will hire 600 employees but the building will no doubt also be filled by existing employees and, perhaps, employees of other buildings.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

Please explain, Itchy. This is a new project that brings hundreds of jobs in construction, engineering and design (industries that are tanking right now), keeps a major company headquartered in Boston, brings over a thousand permanent jobs into the city, removes a parking lot, adds to the density, adds to the city's tax revenue...how does this translate to a "net negative for Boston"?

The above is called short term thinking.

This city has too much of it.

And it's a net negative.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

The above is called short term thinking.

This city has too much of it.

And it's a net negative.

...and I have to ask again...how is kicking off a major project in a recession and keeping a major company headquartered in Boston either "short term thinking" or "a net negative"?

The city has "too much" of what? Keeping Liberty Mutual's headquarters in the back bay is short term thinking??? How???
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

Agree with Ledjes. Even if this building is an architectural and planning nightmare it's not a "net negative." Might not live up to it's potential, but let's keep things in perspective.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

Agreed...the proposal isn't even out...those buildings are okay but not irreplaceable
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

I'm going to go out on a limb and say virtually every prewar building is irreplaceable. I would love to see a moratorium on their destruction.

It's short term thinking because it permanently sacrifices some good buildings for what will inevitably be bad ones, because the city isn't even considering other ways it can accommodate the proposal and keep the same jobs, and because it encourages similar blackmailing moves by other Boston companies that either have jobs to offer or jobs to take away if they can't have their way with the city's historic fabric on the cheap. There's a reason Liberty Mutual is doing this now - trust me, their business is not up.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

If we don't give property tax discounts to companies, they'll leave the state.
If we don't give film companies tax credits, they'll go elsewhere.
If we don't have legalized gambling, people will spend their money elsewhere.

Blah, blah, blah, blah.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

^^What else can you do? Just let them go?
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

I'm going to go out on a limb and say virtually every prewar building is irreplaceable. I would love to see a moratorium on their destruction.

It's short term thinking because it permanently sacrifices some good buildings for what will inevitably be bad ones, because the city isn't even considering other ways it can accommodate the proposal and keep the same jobs, and because it encourages similar blackmailing moves by other Boston companies that either have jobs to offer or jobs to take away if they can't have their way with the city's historic fabric on the cheap. There's a reason Liberty Mutual is doing this now - trust me, their business is not up.

I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head. In fact, a blanket landmarking for every prewar building is one of three legislative changes affecting the built environment that I'd most like to see introduced in Boston (the other two being to have an express policy of phasing out surface parking lots; and to introduce zoning regulations that place an emphasis on restricting width rather than height for developers willing/able to build up).

Please explain, Itchy. This is a new project that brings hundreds of jobs in construction, engineering and design (industries that are tanking right now), keeps a major company headquartered in Boston, brings over a thousand permanent jobs into the city, removes a parking lot, adds to the density, adds to the city's tax revenue...how does this translate to a "net negative for Boston"?

Yes, this would be an economic plus for Boston. It would create economic activity. I would not deny that. But this is an architecture forum, and what I had in mind is the impact of this building on Boston's built environment.

Lots of things can create economic activity without being a positive development for a city's built environment. In the simplest illustration of that, Keynes famously said that the state could create economic growth by paying people to dig holes. A more sophisticated example is the highways that were built through cities (like Boston) or scrapped (like the one through SoHo) in the years after WWII. Closer to the here and now, the postwar period has seen the likes of One Financial Center, the First National Bank Bldg, and One Beacon Street built. All of these things created economic growth (or would have). But none of them was necessarily good for the built environment or, for those of us who find the built environment relevant to it, quality of life.

I agree that it's good that Liberty Mutual will supposedly add jobs and that construction workers will have an extra paycheck. And it's true that we haven't seen renders of the Liberty project.

But I think that the city should finally have some more enlightened building sensibilities. What do I mean by that? Well, the Mayor/BRA tend to have a tight grip on what gets built in this city. But one relic of the urban-redevelopment Fifties/Sixties is that the BRA's portfolio is twofold: to oversee building and to promote economic development. That creates skewed (and vague) criteria for the way the built environment is regulated in Boston.

I'd like to see companies add jobs (and construction workers have work) in Boston. But I think economic development and the built environment need to be separated.

In this instance, I think it's almost cruel that we continue to raze prewar buildings (the likes of which -- let's be honest -- we'll never see again) while so much of Boston is surface lots, or on/off ramps, or the grassy vacuums next to highways, or just generally undeveloped/undense. So, to make Liberty happy, I'd like to see a hypothetical city economic development office help find it space and a developer to partner with. Simultaneously, I'd like to see a hypothetical separate buildings department make sure it doesn't raze perfectly good prewar buildings in a dense, historic part of the city in order to replace them with a chunky, suburban, generic landscraper-in-a-box.

We have a crater where Filene's (Filene's! in Downtown Crossing! the crossroads of the freaking city!) was. We have a huge mass of parking lots in the Seaport that will never be developed apparently because nobody needs to build new offices. We have highways that cleave the city. If you have a company looking to add space, why not even try to help broker a deal between them and a developer active in these areas?

Instead, we'll continue to chip away at the apparently whorishly cheap historical fabric of the city (at least it's cheap if you're Druker, Hynes, or some other friend of Boss Menino with plans to build a crappy-looking box). We'll repeat the mistakes of building highways, building One Financial Center and probably even just digging holes (my money says we can an "art installment" like that on the Greenway at some point) because the built environment is closely tied to politics here, and our politicians are bankrupt. Every time I look at One Financial Center or the Mass Pike, I see wrongs that need to be righted. I think about how much money some spectacularly rich individual who cares about Boston's built environment will have to waste to fix those mistakes and give us a beautiful skyline, or an engaging street-level atmosphere, or sew together separated swaths of the city.

It's mere aesthetics, you might say. Yes, jobs are important, but I would argue that aesthetics are important too. And from Caesar Augustus to the Habsburg Emperors to the Rockefellers and Vanderbilts, there was a time when plenty of fairly pragmatic-minded people would have agreed with that. Even today, a place like London agrees with that and legislates accordingly. As the global financial capital, I don't think it's hurting too badly as a result.
 
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Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

Well said, itchy.

Why, I'll bet the bozos-in-charge still think a parking lot is an integral part of the city instead of the absence of the city.

They probably still think that because of rules they made themselves, building short and fat is efficient and the antidote to being out of scale.

And at some level they suffer from the bizarre delusion that a boring new building is better than a nicely-detailed old gem renovated and perhaps augmented.

They need to go back to school and learn something worth knowing.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

Very well said indeed. Your passion is to your credit, and I actually agree with you. I, for one, would chain myself (almost) to the Dainty Dot building to keep it from the wrecking ball - I LOVE that building even more than the SC&L. I too feel strongly that we need to preserve Boston's pre-war built environment; these buildings give Boston its scale and personality. I honestly could not agree more with you on this topic.

My point is with the label "net negative." A: even if we, on this forum, ultimately give it a mediocre grade at best, it still won't be a net negative for the city ? keyword: net; and B: aren't we being just a little premature on our judgment? Has anyone here seen anything that represents a design for the building? How about even a massing model? Nada...there?s nothing to judge yet.

It?s the speculative negativity that bothers me. I, for one, will buck the trend here and try to be a bit more sanguine about this project. Some day some owner/developer will do the right thing for Boston?s built environment...and maybe, just maybe, it'll be Liberty Mutual, and maybe, just maybe, even czsz will offer it praise. (pushing my luck here, cz?)
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

It's mere aesthetics, you might say. Yes, jobs are important, but I would argue that aesthetics are important too. And from Caesar Augustus to the Habsburg Emperors to the Rockefellers and Vanderbilts, there was a time when plenty of fairly pragmatic-minded people would have agreed with that. Even today, a place like London agrees with that and legislates accordingly. As the global financial capital, I don't think it's hurting too badly as a result.

Noble language, but applying it to the topic at hand, does anyone have any info about the Salvation Army building to show that it is remotely important/special/worth keeping? It was built in the 1950's and seems to generate raging hard-ons simply for the fact that it displays some Art Deco elements in a city with few. Meanwhile, we haven't even seen the new renderings and we're castigating Liberty Mutual.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

I would not say that every pre-WWII building should be saved. Some are simply not worthy and can better be replaced by a more modern structure -- such as Copy Cop by the Apple Store.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

Every rule has exceptions. Yet we still make rules.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

Why must we choose between economic growth and civic improvement?

Again, I have to wonder why not build a slender tower on half the parcel in question. Jobs would still be created. Liberty Mutual would get the space it needs, in the location it wants. Old buildings / urban fabric / quality of life would be preserved. Is it that much more expensive to build a half million sq. ft. on 50 floors than to build it on 25? With that sort of thinking, we'll value engineer away the possibility of ever building anything decent.

It is short-term thinking to rubber stamp what we already know will be a stump that stretches almost an entire block, without looking at other options.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

PlanBoston said:
Is it that much more expensive to build a half million sq. ft. on 50 floors than to build it on 25?

Yes, yes it is.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

... and if no one is willing to spend 20% - 30% more to build an interesting building instead of the cheapest possibility, all we will ever see is glass cubes. We might as well stop talking about architecture, there will be none built anymore.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

And it'll never happen. More height means more elevators, fire stairs and mechanical chases. And with more space given over to vertical circulation that theoretical 50-story building would need to be more like 55-60 to achieve the same amount of net rentable space as the fat 25-story example. On the construction end, it'd also mean higher gauge/strength steel, more cranes and hoists, and more staging and logistical issues.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

Yeah, but think about the ego boost those Liberty Mutual Board of Directors would get.

I wonder if technology will make building tall become more affordable? Carbon Nanotubes used in elevator construction? Floors engineered to not rely on each other for support (as in, if a plane crashes, only the floors above will come tumbling down)? Some type of lightweight, flexible clear membrane used in place of glass? Miniaturization of mechanical/HVAC systems? Thinner spaces between floors?
 

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