MBTA Fare System (Charlie, AFC 2.0, Zone, Discounts)

poppycot said:
Tomorrow's the big day right? Very excited to see if people are going to be paying on the GLX
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yeah - i'm wondering how people are paying at GLX stations - does one still have to tap on at the fare vending machine or can you tap at doors on the GL trains?
 
as02143 said:
yeah - i'm wondering how people are paying at GLX stations - does one still have to tap on at the fare vending machine or can you tap at doors on the GL trains?
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CharlieCards still have to validate. Contactless can use the all door readers.
 
Sorry for the double post but apparently they are going to replace the fare vending machines again??

About the New Charlie System | Fares Overview | MBTA

Official website of the MBTA -- schedules, maps, and fare information for Greater Boston's public transportation system, including subway, commuter rail, bus routes, and boat lines.
www.mbta.com www.mbta.com
 

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As I understand it, the current fare gates and FVMs are Scheidt and Bachmann, the legacy vendor - the T signed a contract with them back in 2019 to upgrade the gates and FVMs, paralleling the cubic contract. The 2017 plan was to replace everything all at once - including fare machines and gates. In 2019 they decided to add a few steps to that. That's what is in place now - getting rid of the magstripe charlietickets and going for a tappable one, and therefore the ~2021/22 machines that could dispense cards were part of those interim upgrades.

AFAIK part of that was enabling the existing gates to actually interoperate with the cubic reader now stuck on top. But eventually, the Cubic contract calls for them to fully replace all fare control equipment - including the gates and FVMs with their hardware so new cubic built FVMs - which these likely are - were always part of the pipeline. That's especially true for the Bus station machines since those are completely new to the T. The S&B contract will eventually end, and so will support for their FVMs and gates.

Frankly, I'm more intrigued by the fact that they're very clearly different from the OMNY machines, which only just recently started being functional.
 
The interim S&B upgrade was also necessitated by PCI compliance deadlines. I am amused when the current fare gates crash and you can see that the built-in screens are displaying the upper left corner of a windows desktop.
 
nortor said:
There won’t be readers on the platform??
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Not at the GLX stations because reasons (Generally money) that I'm sure have been ranted about at extreme length on the GLX thread. Yes it's dumb, maybe they'll get around to fixing it at some point eventually.
 
I still can’t believe these cost so much. Are they going to be on the other GL surface stops? Seems extremely annoying to have to tap inside the car during rush periods, offboard scanning would unlock the full benefits of open payment.
 
nortor said:
I still can’t believe these cost so much. Are they going to be on the other GL surface stops? Seems extremely annoying to have to tap inside the car during rush periods, offboard scanning would unlock the full benefits of open payment.
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I mean, the main point of having the readers in the car is to allow all door boarding. Also, since you can’t really put readers at surface station. In terms of fare machines, I doubt we will see them put anywhere the don’t currently exist, save for maybe the D branch.
 
CheapLeak said:
I mean, the main point of having the readers in the car is to allow all door boarding. Also, since you can’t really put readers at surface station. In terms of fare machines, I doubt we will see them put anywhere the don’t currently exist, save for maybe the D branch.
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All door boarding is not at odds with some small card readers on the platform, though. That's exactly what Seattle does (although that's not a perfect example since they started having fare beating issues recently, to the point where they're considering adding fare gates back).

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I generally agree, but this conflicts with mobile-based payment methods. Orca card serves as proof of payment as well as the mechanism to pay. If I tap my phone and a fare inspector comes to ask for proof of payment, am I going to have to go through my Apple Pay transactions and match up time of payment etc? I think the MTA and new MBTA systems are pretty good in principle, and that they should also do platform payments, but there needs to be a virtual Charlie Card or associated app so proof of payment, monthly passes, and other tracking/direct deposit options are available.
 
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Justbuildit said:
I generally agree, but this conflicts with mobile-based payment methods. Orca card serves as proof of payment as well as the mechanism to pay. If I tap my phone and a fare inspector comes to ask for proof of payment, am I going to have to go through my Apple Pay transactions and match up time of payment etc? I think the MTA and new MBTA systems are pretty good in principle, and that they should also do platform payments, but there needs to be a virtual Charlie Card or associated app so proof of payment, monthly passes, and other tracking/direct deposit options are available.
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I seriously doubt that we'll have fare inspectors. Under the current system they could only work in the inbound direction anyway unless fares are reinstated at Logan on the Silver Line and the T changes the "open fare gates during diversions" policy. I don't think Amex/MC/Visa are in the business of $0.00 transactions. You can't have fare inspectors when you have fare system that allows boarding at certain stations for free, and the patches to that are messy.
 
Yeah I agree we won't get inspectors, but the natural outcome with tap to pay at all the surface stations is that people will just skip payment. It's not a huge issue, as there are already a lot of fare hoppers on surface green line trains, so either we need faregates or just accept that enforcement will be a real challenge.
 
737900er said:
I seriously doubt that we'll have fare inspectors. Under the current system they could only work in the inbound direction anyway unless fares are reinstated at Logan on the Silver Line and the T changes the "open fare gates during diversions" policy. I don't think Amex/MC/Visa are in the business of $0.00 transactions. You can't have fare inspectors when you have fare system that allows boarding at certain stations for free, and the patches to that are messy.
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Could they have people tap for no charge at Logan? Not having fare inspectors seems crazy to me since we just spent a billion dollars on a payment system.
Justbuildit said:
I generally agree, but this conflicts with mobile-based payment methods. Orca card serves as proof of payment as well as the mechanism to pay. If I tap my phone and a fare inspector comes to ask for proof of payment, am I going to have to go through my Apple Pay transactions and match up time of payment etc? I think the MTA and new MBTA systems are pretty good in principle, and that they should also do platform payments, but there needs to be a virtual Charlie Card or associated app so proof of payment, monthly passes, and other tracking/direct deposit options are available.
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Does AFC 2.0 not work the same as, for example, Presto where the inspectors just have you tap the same card? Ideally proof of payment could be done on either a virtual CharlieCard or any payment method.
Teban54 said:
All door boarding is not at odds with some small card readers on the platform, though.
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Yeah, this is what I meant. It would speed boarding if people could validate on the platform as well. Edited to add: in this May globe article it says the Mattapan line will have platform readers but the latest MBTA press release says there will be onboard readers on the trolleys.
 
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nortor said:
Could they have people tap for no charge at Logan? Not having fare inspectors seems crazy to me since we just spent a billion dollars on a payment system.
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This is my understanding as well. Based on this flowchart I previously posted, which I assume the MBTA will follow a very similar version of, on the airport SL they just need to do the first step - validate the card, with no fare submission. That would allow any downstream fare inspector to see that the card was tapped. In fact, we know that the Cubic system has that functionality - otherwise the fare capping system as implemented on OMNY would not work.

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The actual problem I foresee is communicating that to folks - especially tired tourists arriving at Logan with their hands full, that Yes, they need to tap their credit cards, but no, they won't be charged for it.

That seems like one of those areas which definitely could use further development - perhaps a simple "take a number" type dispenser on those buses would be more traveler friendly. Or policy could just define that anyone who appears to be a bonafide tourist/logan arrival gets a educational flyer and a map instead of a penalty, or that fare inspectors use common sense when faced with a claim that they'd just arrived at Logan via a SL transfer.
 
I just watched a group of half a dozen people at a small above-ground green line stop get on. With all-door boarding, they just waltzed in through the back and none of them tapped. The MBTA needs to step up its messaging and enforcement or else I think the fare evasion rate will be like 70% lmao
 
cubbe8 said:
CharlieCards still have to validate. Contactless can use the all door readers.
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Well this has me much less excited - I still have to waltz up to the front like a schmuck and tap up at the driver's seat or use those FVMs to get a ticket/reciept?
 
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