Orange County Government Center (Paul Rudolph) Preservation
- Thread starter davem
- Start date
Full disclosure: Goshen is my home town. I have deep roots in the community and growing up there helped form my preservationist ideals.
**None of these images are mine**
Goshen has roots dating back to the first decade of the 1700s, and as a community has a long, long tradition of embracing its almost wholy intact historic fabric dating back far longer then what is vogue for the movement. As an example, when the railroad pulled out of town in the early 80s they came up with an adaptive reuse of the train station as the village police department:
New construction has also embraced this historic context, such as this building put up on a former rail yard:
And this complex, which I believe was a partial renovation/restoration of old depot buildings as well as new construction:
The Rudolph building is completely out of context to the rest of the village which still retains almost its entire downtown:
There are also tons of old mansions, relating to the towns long history of hosting lawyers. Many are on the historic register and were designed by famous architects. This one is particularly notable as it was designed by Calvert Vaux, who was partners with Olmstead for a while (my friend also grew up in an apartment within before it was restored):
The the "Lawyers Row", which is almost directly across the street from the Government Center.
One of the earlier (1841) courthouses:
The 1887 Courthouse, which the Government Center was built to replace. This courthouse was contextual to the village not just in architecture but that it stands at a Y intersection giving it a monumental feel (there is also a memorial out of frame to the right)
For local government, the Village works out of "Maplewood", another old mansion:
The Town works out of one of the earlier schoolhouses:
Across the street from the government center is the old High School, reused as the main offices for the school district:
Just up the street is the monumental middle school:
There is also a great collection of Flatirons relating to Goshens irregular street patterns as chronicled here.
Goshen's primary economy relates to the government offices being located there, however the secondary economy relates to tourism, as the Historic Track (the oldest operating harness racing track in the US) is right in the village, within a stones throw of the Government Center:
Legend has it that harness racing as a sport developed because the lawyers used to drag race carriages down Main Street, terrorizing pedestrians. A track was built to allow them to do it safely.
Goshen is also host to an extremely popular Fourth of July event (the Great American Weekend). A 5k and 10k race, harness racing, craft fair, food fair, carnival, music tent, and opening of many of the historic homes for tours packs the village from end to end. Well almost end to end...
The town recently purchased a former Salesian Seminary off Main St and began the process of transforming the derelict property into a public park. It's only a half mile from the village green (which is reaching capacity for the GAW) and a third of a mile from the track.
However, the Orange County Government Center stands between the two. And it holistically destroys the streetwall and deadens Main St to the point there is barely any foot traffic. This is further compounded by a gigantic parking lot, demolished jail, and mansions across the street (maplewood being one)
^The smaller building behind the church on the village green is the aforementioned 1887 courthouse.
This is further compounded by the ill-thought procession to enter the building.
The original entrances were supposed to be accessible by a beautiful central courtyard:
This was abandoned almost immediately however, as the courtyard can only be accessed from the south, which requires walking around almost the entire building from the parking lot. And since it's a county building, everyone arrives by car. It is also not ADA accessible in any manner. Therefore the defacto entrance for anyone coming to the center for the passport office, DMV, or child courts has become a tiny metal side door:
Once inside, the interior is a confusing labyranth of passages, ramps and stairs. If you are my grandmother who couldn't go up stairs it ment circumventing the entire building several times to access elevators. This is another frequent complaint unrelated to the asthetics of the building.
In contrast to Rudolph's rather utopian vision of people walking (from where who knows, the train was on its way out when the designs were being made)
A large parking lot filled the void.
Shot-for-Shot
Another design flaw is the 87 roofs (above), which have been leaking almost since the initial construction. Visitors frequently walk under tarps inside to collect the flowing water. The entire structure is also infested with mold from this, leading to the abandonment of the courthouse itself in favor of a (terrible, also above) modernist addition. As already mentioned, it is also impossible to heat and cool properly (I can attest to this, one room will be 100 and the next 40), and the HVAC is difficult to impossible to upgrade due to the design of the building (it is integrated into the formwork. Same with the lighting, which is also rather dark).
In my opinion, it is also one of Rudolph's weaker works. As I mentioned, its placement on the site works against the entrance procession. Its best feature (the courtyard and pavilion, below) are unused and under appreciated due to them being on the wrong side of the building. The building itself is too far from the street on all sides, and its gigantic parking lot forces visitors through a side door.
The materials are also lackluster, no more then cinderblocks with a slight grain pressed in. It is also susceptible to staining very quickly. They cleaned the building twice while I was living there, and it looked good for only a few months before the dark stains came back. Solar glare also frequently leads to shades being drawn over its many windows, further adding to an aesthetic disaster.
More importantly, the building has been whole heartily and unequivocally DESPISED in Goshen since it was first proposed. The county wanted to project a futuristic image to keep it relevant with the times. The residents of Goshen wanted something that would be sensitive to their village. In addition, a beautiful mansion and its formal grounds were demolished to make room (Pictured below, its the building to the right of the rear of the left train). As the county owned the property, the residents of Goshen could do little more than complain and look on in dismay, as they have been for over 40 years.
If this building was anywhere but Goshen I (nor many of the other detractors) wouldnt have any issue with it. This has been stated many times by many people. However it is completely out of context in Goshen. It was never wanted, and has been working to destroy the image of the town for decades. In fact, when I first moved there in 2nd grade the VERY FIRST conversation I had with my new classmates was them asking what I thought of the "ugly cereal box building". The level of loathing of this building on the local level is unmatched, not even in relation to our own Government Center in Boston.
If a building is insensitive to its environment, why should the environment be sensitive to it?
Despite its history, this building does not deserve a future. It is wildly out of context to the rest of the village (particularly the adjacent Church Park historic district), leaves a shamefull impression on all visitors (to both the building and the village), and was built against the wishes of the public.
The only reason I would want to see it spared the wrecking ball is that I do not trust the county to build an adequate replacement. As I previously mentioned, the new courthouse built adjacent to it is equally horrid (and was also vastly behind schedule when being built), and I do not trust cash-strapped Orange County to be able to replace it with something vernacular and of quality. A possible hope may be in a public-private partnership, as many of the new construction buildings I posted above have been of remarkable quality and approperate asthetics. The county as a whole is just warming up to real ruban planning vs sprawl however, so I do not trust the leglistors to make a good decision.
The issue has been pressed as the center has been abandoned for over a year now, as Irene flooded the building and increased the amount of mold to a point that the offices had to be moved out into buildings spread out across the entire county.
On ArchDaily
On Wikipedia
Sorry, Paul
**None of these images are mine**
Goshen has roots dating back to the first decade of the 1700s, and as a community has a long, long tradition of embracing its almost wholy intact historic fabric dating back far longer then what is vogue for the movement. As an example, when the railroad pulled out of town in the early 80s they came up with an adaptive reuse of the train station as the village police department:
New construction has also embraced this historic context, such as this building put up on a former rail yard:
And this complex, which I believe was a partial renovation/restoration of old depot buildings as well as new construction:
The Rudolph building is completely out of context to the rest of the village which still retains almost its entire downtown:
There are also tons of old mansions, relating to the towns long history of hosting lawyers. Many are on the historic register and were designed by famous architects. This one is particularly notable as it was designed by Calvert Vaux, who was partners with Olmstead for a while (my friend also grew up in an apartment within before it was restored):
The the "Lawyers Row", which is almost directly across the street from the Government Center.
One of the earlier (1841) courthouses:
The 1887 Courthouse, which the Government Center was built to replace. This courthouse was contextual to the village not just in architecture but that it stands at a Y intersection giving it a monumental feel (there is also a memorial out of frame to the right)
For local government, the Village works out of "Maplewood", another old mansion:
The Town works out of one of the earlier schoolhouses:
Across the street from the government center is the old High School, reused as the main offices for the school district:
Just up the street is the monumental middle school:
There is also a great collection of Flatirons relating to Goshens irregular street patterns as chronicled here.
Goshen's primary economy relates to the government offices being located there, however the secondary economy relates to tourism, as the Historic Track (the oldest operating harness racing track in the US) is right in the village, within a stones throw of the Government Center:
Legend has it that harness racing as a sport developed because the lawyers used to drag race carriages down Main Street, terrorizing pedestrians. A track was built to allow them to do it safely.
Goshen is also host to an extremely popular Fourth of July event (the Great American Weekend). A 5k and 10k race, harness racing, craft fair, food fair, carnival, music tent, and opening of many of the historic homes for tours packs the village from end to end. Well almost end to end...
The town recently purchased a former Salesian Seminary off Main St and began the process of transforming the derelict property into a public park. It's only a half mile from the village green (which is reaching capacity for the GAW) and a third of a mile from the track.
However, the Orange County Government Center stands between the two. And it holistically destroys the streetwall and deadens Main St to the point there is barely any foot traffic. This is further compounded by a gigantic parking lot, demolished jail, and mansions across the street (maplewood being one)
^The smaller building behind the church on the village green is the aforementioned 1887 courthouse.
This is further compounded by the ill-thought procession to enter the building.
The original entrances were supposed to be accessible by a beautiful central courtyard:
This was abandoned almost immediately however, as the courtyard can only be accessed from the south, which requires walking around almost the entire building from the parking lot. And since it's a county building, everyone arrives by car. It is also not ADA accessible in any manner. Therefore the defacto entrance for anyone coming to the center for the passport office, DMV, or child courts has become a tiny metal side door:
Once inside, the interior is a confusing labyranth of passages, ramps and stairs. If you are my grandmother who couldn't go up stairs it ment circumventing the entire building several times to access elevators. This is another frequent complaint unrelated to the asthetics of the building.
In contrast to Rudolph's rather utopian vision of people walking (from where who knows, the train was on its way out when the designs were being made)
A large parking lot filled the void.
Shot-for-Shot
Another design flaw is the 87 roofs (above), which have been leaking almost since the initial construction. Visitors frequently walk under tarps inside to collect the flowing water. The entire structure is also infested with mold from this, leading to the abandonment of the courthouse itself in favor of a (terrible, also above) modernist addition. As already mentioned, it is also impossible to heat and cool properly (I can attest to this, one room will be 100 and the next 40), and the HVAC is difficult to impossible to upgrade due to the design of the building (it is integrated into the formwork. Same with the lighting, which is also rather dark).
In my opinion, it is also one of Rudolph's weaker works. As I mentioned, its placement on the site works against the entrance procession. Its best feature (the courtyard and pavilion, below) are unused and under appreciated due to them being on the wrong side of the building. The building itself is too far from the street on all sides, and its gigantic parking lot forces visitors through a side door.
The materials are also lackluster, no more then cinderblocks with a slight grain pressed in. It is also susceptible to staining very quickly. They cleaned the building twice while I was living there, and it looked good for only a few months before the dark stains came back. Solar glare also frequently leads to shades being drawn over its many windows, further adding to an aesthetic disaster.
More importantly, the building has been whole heartily and unequivocally DESPISED in Goshen since it was first proposed. The county wanted to project a futuristic image to keep it relevant with the times. The residents of Goshen wanted something that would be sensitive to their village. In addition, a beautiful mansion and its formal grounds were demolished to make room (Pictured below, its the building to the right of the rear of the left train). As the county owned the property, the residents of Goshen could do little more than complain and look on in dismay, as they have been for over 40 years.
If this building was anywhere but Goshen I (nor many of the other detractors) wouldnt have any issue with it. This has been stated many times by many people. However it is completely out of context in Goshen. It was never wanted, and has been working to destroy the image of the town for decades. In fact, when I first moved there in 2nd grade the VERY FIRST conversation I had with my new classmates was them asking what I thought of the "ugly cereal box building". The level of loathing of this building on the local level is unmatched, not even in relation to our own Government Center in Boston.
If a building is insensitive to its environment, why should the environment be sensitive to it?
Despite its history, this building does not deserve a future. It is wildly out of context to the rest of the village (particularly the adjacent Church Park historic district), leaves a shamefull impression on all visitors (to both the building and the village), and was built against the wishes of the public.
The only reason I would want to see it spared the wrecking ball is that I do not trust the county to build an adequate replacement. As I previously mentioned, the new courthouse built adjacent to it is equally horrid (and was also vastly behind schedule when being built), and I do not trust cash-strapped Orange County to be able to replace it with something vernacular and of quality. A possible hope may be in a public-private partnership, as many of the new construction buildings I posted above have been of remarkable quality and approperate asthetics. The county as a whole is just warming up to real ruban planning vs sprawl however, so I do not trust the leglistors to make a good decision.
The issue has been pressed as the center has been abandoned for over a year now, as Irene flooded the building and increased the amount of mold to a point that the offices had to be moved out into buildings spread out across the entire county.
On ArchDaily
On Wikipedia
Sorry, Paul
Last edited:
Beton Brut
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Thanks for your thoughtful post, davem. Goshen looks like a lovely town. It calls to mind Cold Spring and Beacon on the East side of the Hudson, places I find myself with some regularity. I need to visit Goshen the next time I visit my friends in the Hudson Valley.
I appreciate the recognition that this isn't Rudolph's strongest work, and that its failures are both in design and execution. The concrete block seems ill-advised given the harsh winters in this region, but I'm guessing that a cast-in-place approach (like our own oft-maligned Hurley Building) would have be out of site from a budgetary standpoint.
I only hope that if the County goes forward with "fixing" this building, that they don't half-ass the job. As a preservationist, I have no issue with modifying a design if the changes improve the building's functionality, but my preference would be to make a effort to be sympathetic to the building's ethos.
I appreciate the recognition that this isn't Rudolph's strongest work, and that its failures are both in design and execution. The concrete block seems ill-advised given the harsh winters in this region, but I'm guessing that a cast-in-place approach (like our own oft-maligned Hurley Building) would have be out of site from a budgetary standpoint.
I only hope that if the County goes forward with "fixing" this building, that they don't half-ass the job. As a preservationist, I have no issue with modifying a design if the changes improve the building's functionality, but my preference would be to make a effort to be sympathetic to the building's ethos.
kz1000ps
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That's a damning picture you paint, davem, and I find it hard to not side with you in calling for (eventually) hitting the restart button on this site. I get that brutalism is under attack from all angles and I appreciate the style as much as the next archi-nerd, but this seems an odd choice for preservationists to turn into their cause célèbre when you consider just how many fatal flaws the structure has.
And davem, I also hail from a Hudson Valley town, though a bit further north than you (up by Albany). Check out this little tour of my hometown, which has a similar history and feel to your home...we also had tons of lawyers and politicians like our 8th president, Martin Van Buren, way back in the day.
And davem, I also hail from a Hudson Valley town, though a bit further north than you (up by Albany). Check out this little tour of my hometown, which has a similar history and feel to your home...we also had tons of lawyers and politicians like our 8th president, Martin Van Buren, way back in the day.
JohnAKeith
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Two to three times a year, I drive back Route 9 from Stamford, NY to Massachusetts. Going through Kinderhook (and, Claverack!) is a highlight of each trip.
Love the photos. Love them.
Thanks for sharing them.
Love the photos. Love them.
Thanks for sharing them.
Bumping this...
http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140502/NEWS/405020344
I've been looking around, but I can't find much more on what is being torn down and what's staying. I'm assuming the world monuments people will be happy. The article also mentions a NYC developer came in at the 11th hour offering to buy the entire complex, and build O.C. a new government center complex in exchange for the current site. It doesn't say why his proposal was rejected, but it obviously was. A shame, because that could have made a really great project.
The economy of Goshen has been almost wholly destroyed since the complex closed in 2011. Last time I went home almost half the villages storefronts were vacant. People think Mass is screwy with its lack of county government, but the wholesale failure of O.C. to get this project moving makes me think we know what we're doing.
Kind of unrelated, but while going through my hard drive I found some pics from before all this happened, and since you guys enjoyed the last ones I thought I'd share. My friends family is really into ballooning and took me on one of their rides. If anyone here EVER gets a chance to go up in a balloon, DO IT! It was one of the most amazing and relaxing experiences of my life, even though we hit a tree =)
Downtown, looking east. The Government Center is the large, hazy building in the center rear.
The west side of the village. Of note is the former train station turned police station, and the surprisingly good infill just behind it (which, thanks to the gov't center closing, has yet to lease and bankrupted the developer...)
The main intersection, looking east. The small fountain with a light post at the center of the square is a few hundred years old, and was originally installed for horses to get a drink. The small steeple at top center is the Town Hall, former school I posted a picture of in the first post. The street with the arrows is the former Erie Main Line railroad ROW.
The Perperterian Church, who's front lawn serves as an expansive town green. It's an odd relationship, as the church owns it but almost any public event that happens (fairs, farmers market, outdoor movie nights) happens on its property. I guess we're lucky, as most NY towns don't have a "common", but thanks to the church Goshen does, and it's an incredible asset. It's steeple also hides the only cell tower in the area, and many publicly funded monuments are on the lawn as well. The yellow brick building behind is the old O.C. Courthouse, and in the background is the 1/4 mile "Historic Track", the oldest harness racing facility in the country. The grandstand and bandstand date to the 1880s, IIRC, but the track itself is much older. The high school graduations are held here, since it's the only venue large enough (our football program is pathetic). The track is another great asset the town has that really sets it apart. It's only used for a racing one weekend a year, but they host concerts and a bunch of other stuff year round, in addition to being a practice facility for trainers.
View looking west. Same stuff as before, but without all the glare. (I guess the air currents are better in the early morning, but the sun made it difficult to take pictures, to say the least. I've never had the full spectrum split from my lens before, and it happened in half of these pictures.) Church Park and the fountain are the bottom left. Probably one of the most flattering pictures I've taken of the town. The furthest mountain range you can see is likely in New Jersey. The next town to the west is Warwick, which is right on the boarder.
Looking east again, from almost the same place as the previous picture. You can get a good sense of just how oppressive and out of place Rudolph's government center really is from this shot. "Lawyers Row" is in the bottom right, the yellow building in the bottom left is the Orange Inn, which is either built on the foundation of a jail, or itself housed jail cells in the basement. Either way, it is apparently extensively haunted, if you believe such things ;-)
Former High, now Middle School. Almost all of lower NY state used the same architect during this period to design it's schools, and they all have a very similar aesthetic. Goshen's however, is regarded as the crown jewel of them all. My parent's house is somewhere out near the power lines in the background towards the right. The water tower you can see was the site of more than one juvenile late night misadventure.
Just outside of town, I believe this is Sarah Wells Trail, named after the first female settler to the area in 1712. The large, hazy range in the background at left is the Shawangunk Ridge ("The Gunks"), one of the best rock climbing areas in the east.
Artsy Fartsy. I believe it was right after this shot we crashed into a tree in the middle of the field. "Push your way out" were the directions I was given, and the wind just kind of pulled us up and out of the tree. Then a few miles later we missed our landing in a farm field, instead popping across the street to the local country club, crashing into a sand pit. More than a few golfers came over and gave us a hand getting everything off the course so they could play through.
http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140502/NEWS/405020344
Times Herald Record said:
I've been looking around, but I can't find much more on what is being torn down and what's staying. I'm assuming the world monuments people will be happy. The article also mentions a NYC developer came in at the 11th hour offering to buy the entire complex, and build O.C. a new government center complex in exchange for the current site. It doesn't say why his proposal was rejected, but it obviously was. A shame, because that could have made a really great project.
The economy of Goshen has been almost wholly destroyed since the complex closed in 2011. Last time I went home almost half the villages storefronts were vacant. People think Mass is screwy with its lack of county government, but the wholesale failure of O.C. to get this project moving makes me think we know what we're doing.
Kind of unrelated, but while going through my hard drive I found some pics from before all this happened, and since you guys enjoyed the last ones I thought I'd share. My friends family is really into ballooning and took me on one of their rides. If anyone here EVER gets a chance to go up in a balloon, DO IT! It was one of the most amazing and relaxing experiences of my life, even though we hit a tree =)
Downtown, looking east. The Government Center is the large, hazy building in the center rear.
The west side of the village. Of note is the former train station turned police station, and the surprisingly good infill just behind it (which, thanks to the gov't center closing, has yet to lease and bankrupted the developer...)
The main intersection, looking east. The small fountain with a light post at the center of the square is a few hundred years old, and was originally installed for horses to get a drink. The small steeple at top center is the Town Hall, former school I posted a picture of in the first post. The street with the arrows is the former Erie Main Line railroad ROW.
The Perperterian Church, who's front lawn serves as an expansive town green. It's an odd relationship, as the church owns it but almost any public event that happens (fairs, farmers market, outdoor movie nights) happens on its property. I guess we're lucky, as most NY towns don't have a "common", but thanks to the church Goshen does, and it's an incredible asset. It's steeple also hides the only cell tower in the area, and many publicly funded monuments are on the lawn as well. The yellow brick building behind is the old O.C. Courthouse, and in the background is the 1/4 mile "Historic Track", the oldest harness racing facility in the country. The grandstand and bandstand date to the 1880s, IIRC, but the track itself is much older. The high school graduations are held here, since it's the only venue large enough (our football program is pathetic). The track is another great asset the town has that really sets it apart. It's only used for a racing one weekend a year, but they host concerts and a bunch of other stuff year round, in addition to being a practice facility for trainers.
View looking west. Same stuff as before, but without all the glare. (I guess the air currents are better in the early morning, but the sun made it difficult to take pictures, to say the least. I've never had the full spectrum split from my lens before, and it happened in half of these pictures.) Church Park and the fountain are the bottom left. Probably one of the most flattering pictures I've taken of the town. The furthest mountain range you can see is likely in New Jersey. The next town to the west is Warwick, which is right on the boarder.
Looking east again, from almost the same place as the previous picture. You can get a good sense of just how oppressive and out of place Rudolph's government center really is from this shot. "Lawyers Row" is in the bottom right, the yellow building in the bottom left is the Orange Inn, which is either built on the foundation of a jail, or itself housed jail cells in the basement. Either way, it is apparently extensively haunted, if you believe such things ;-)
Former High, now Middle School. Almost all of lower NY state used the same architect during this period to design it's schools, and they all have a very similar aesthetic. Goshen's however, is regarded as the crown jewel of them all. My parent's house is somewhere out near the power lines in the background towards the right. The water tower you can see was the site of more than one juvenile late night misadventure.
Just outside of town, I believe this is Sarah Wells Trail, named after the first female settler to the area in 1712. The large, hazy range in the background at left is the Shawangunk Ridge ("The Gunks"), one of the best rock climbing areas in the east.
Artsy Fartsy. I believe it was right after this shot we crashed into a tree in the middle of the field. "Push your way out" were the directions I was given, and the wind just kind of pulled us up and out of the tree. Then a few miles later we missed our landing in a farm field, instead popping across the street to the local country club, crashing into a sand pit. More than a few golfers came over and gave us a hand getting everything off the course so they could play through.
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kz1000ps
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Sad about your town's economy cratering, but I do love me some Hudson Valley balloons! I've never been up in one but growing up in Columbia County we had those things flying awfully close to our home all the time. These are all from the 1990s...
I think that's me in the grey
Pretty sure this is the closest they ever got
So close they had to land in our next door neighbor's yard
I think that's me in the grey
Pretty sure this is the closest they ever got
So close they had to land in our next door neighbor's yard
I think the valley must have great air currents, or something. Getting woken up to the WOSHHHHHHHHHKRTTT! of the propane tanks firing just outside my window is a vivid summer memory. They commonly would land in a big farm field right across the street from my parents house, and quite often we had conversations with the people in the balloons from our deck.
Was there a stream or other water near you? Even a small trickle apparently effects the air a lot, so they tend to follow them. That's how we wound up hitting that tree. Also, some of the picture links are broken in your OK thread. It's amazing how similar the residential architecture of your hometown is to mine!
Was there a stream or other water near you? Even a small trickle apparently effects the air a lot, so they tend to follow them. That's how we wound up hitting that tree. Also, some of the picture links are broken in your OK thread. It's amazing how similar the residential architecture of your hometown is to mine!
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kz1000ps
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Hmm there were plenty of irrigation ponds and streams a few hundred yards in any direction (we were surrounded by apple orchards) but none immediately around my home. But I will tell you that no more than a few months after moving into the place that WOSHHHHHHHHKRTTT sound scared away one of our cats forever. Had to keep them indoors from then on.
And yeah, sorry about the dead links in that post. F*cking Imageshack has proven itself to be totally unstable, and that's why I switched over to Flickr 4 years ago. Some day when I have loads of time on my hands I'll go back and replace all the links...maybe.
And yeah, sorry about the dead links in that post. F*cking Imageshack has proven itself to be totally unstable, and that's why I switched over to Flickr 4 years ago. Some day when I have loads of time on my hands I'll go back and replace all the links...maybe.