Portland Transportation Center

cneal said:
Why not bypass downtown Westbrook and Morrill's corner both, and just use the Maine Turnpike right-of-way to meet up with the mainline up in Riverton near the Presumpscot River?
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Insufficient clearance on the Turnpike ROW to median-run, running it alongside the Turnpike requires comparable amounts of eminent domain (just in a different place), and tunneling under the Turnpike results in the one-two punch of introducing steep grades and expensive deep-bore tunneling. You might accidentally end up salting the Portland-Montreal ROW too, but that could be considered an acceptable loss.

Also, the most direct route back - reversing on the platform and running backwards all the way to Brunswick (and beyond) is about 3.5 miles to where the detour, worth about 6.6 miles, would merge back with the main line. The tunneling option, illustrated here, is worth just about 4.75 miles - right in the middle, as befitting a middle-of-the-road solution. Not really that great a savings, mileage-wise.
 
Commuting Boston Student said:
This ROW is mostly intact, but also lousy with grade crossings and almost completely single-track. Double-tracking would be essential, and the turnout track is bounded on both sides by nasty potential grade crossings that would need to be blown up if the stated goal of no reverse moves is to be achieved.
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The ROW and track running parallel to Warren Ave would have to be completely rebuilt. That track is part of the old Portland Terminal Line that was once the Sanford and Eastern Railroad (and prior to that the Worcester, Nashua & Rochester Railroad). It was abandoned in the 1960's. The crossing at Riverside Street and much of the track in the area has been removed. There's also no overpass or underpass for the Maine Turnpike, which would need to be constructed. A credit union, small car dealership, storage lot for a large car dealership and masonry company all now sit in the former ROW. Too much land would have to be taken by eminent domain to make this work.

It would probably be cheaper and easier to run the track along the Turnpike ROW and tunnel to connect to the existing track, as was suggested. That's not going to happen.

And even if the detour into Westbrook would happen, it would completely screw up traffic in both the Cumberland Mills rotary in Westbrook (which is a cluster to begin with) several times a day, as well as Morrill's Corner (also a well-known cluster). Sure, Woodfords Corner gets spared, but I'd rather we have one screwed up traffic cluster than two.

So, by the sounds of it, we're stuck with the double-reverse move in Portland unless Union Station is rebuilt.
 
Dr. StrangeHat said:
The ROW and track running parallel to Warren Ave would have to be completely rebuilt. That track is part of the old Portland Terminal Line that was once the Sanford and Eastern Railroad (and prior to that the Worcester, Nashua & Rochester Railroad). It was abandoned in the 1960's. The crossing at Riverside Street and much of the track in the area has been removed. There's also no overpass or underpass for the Maine Turnpike, which would need to be constructed. A credit union, small car dealership, storage lot for a large car dealership and masonry company all now sit in the former ROW. Too much land would have to be taken by eminent domain to make this work.

It would probably be cheaper and easier to run the track along the Turnpike ROW and tunnel to connect to the existing track, as was suggested. That's not going to happen.

And even if the detour into Westbrook would happen, it would completely screw up traffic in both the Cumberland Mills rotary in Westbrook (which is a cluster to begin with) several times a day, as well as Morrill's Corner (also a well-known cluster). Sure, Woodfords Corner gets spared, but I'd rather we have one screwed up traffic cluster than two.

So, by the sounds of it, we're stuck with the double-reverse move in Portland unless Union Station is rebuilt.
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Situations like this are exactly why we have eminent domain to begin with. Nobody needs to lose their home here, every taking is industrial/commercial - and it really shouldn't be that hard to relocate a credit union, two fast food joints and a car dealership. If it were me at the helm, I'd try and buy off the masonry company with improved access to freight and letting them stay in exchange for running rail right through them, but I don't know if that's even an actionable proposal.

I know that doing anything involving the Turnpike ROW is not actionable, and based on what I've read so far looking into this, I'm guessing "Rebuild Union Station" isn't actionable either - NNERPA dismissed the idea in this release, although I think they were a little hasty in doing so. That having been said, I don't want to see half the problem get solved, as finishing the wye would result in - and 'doing nothing' is probably not actionable. So, for better or worse, it seems like they want to keep PTC and so I guess we're stuck with that station location.

In fairness, my wanting to preserve that stretch of the Portland Terminal Line that became part of my argument against a Turnpike ROW is that you might cut off access to the rest of that line - I was operating under the assumption that it went to Montreal. Upon further inspection... it doesn't. So cutting off the northwest movement in favor of the due-north move is probably not that much of a loss. (Someone can come in and correct me if that line has some ancillary value.) Still, there's not going to be any tunneling - but it looks like there shouldn't be any problem with constructing an overpass for the Maine Turnpike on the north side of Exit 48, it looks like there's a surviving underpass on the south side, and anything we do with this merry little jaunt into Westbrook probably comes paired with fixing Cumberland Mills and Morrill's Corner anyway - those both look like disasters even before we do anything to them.

Don't get me wrong, rebuilding Union Station is the best possible outcome and I'd happily throw everything I've got behind that instead... but it doesn't look like that's what will end up happening. Going through Westbrook seems like the next best possible outcome.
 
Commuting Boston Student said:
and it really shouldn't be that hard to relocate a credit union,
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That isn't exactly a small potatoes credit union. It's fairly sizable and was built in 2005-2006:

http://maps.google.com/?ll=43.68440...anoid=Jonb-FuIR3UAROXhv08YpA&cbp=12,78.9,,0,0

http://maps.google.com/?ll=43.68419,-70.327917&spn=0.004043,0.004528&t=h&z=18

The masonry company is small and their storage yard is literally the entire width of the old ROW. They'd only be left with their main building and small parking lot on Riverside. You'd have to buy them out completely.

Similar deal with the small car dealership. They are literally smack in the middle of the old ROW. They'd have to be bought out completely as well.

The large car dealeship with it's storage yard in the old ROW is a major player in New England (Berlin Group). Given the fact that they are (a) a sizeable car dealership and (b) car salespeople, you can bet they will play hardball to get absolute top $ for that property and nothing less.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see the Downeaster swing through Downtown Westbrook, with a possible flag-stop in Downtown Westbrook. I'd love to be able to take the train to Boston, get hammered at a Bruins game (if the NHL ever pulls its head out of its butt), come home and not have to drive from the Portland Transportation Center to Westbrook. I just don't think this option is feasible. There are too many hurdles for something that already has to jump through a lot of hurdles just to get going and operate (i.e. passenger rail), and eminent domain is a VERY touchy subject in these parts.

To me, the most ideal situation (in terms of giving Portland a downtown station) that presented itself but was axed was the option of running the train along Commercial Street, building a new station on the site of the parking lot at the corner of Center and Commercial Street, then continuing the train on down Commercial Street, around the East End along the current Narrow Guage ROW, across Back Cove on a re-built Back Cove trestle, and on-ward along that line.

That option was discussed, but it was deemed unfeasible. I can see why, though. Ever try to drive down Commercial Street in the summer? It's a real-life game of Frogger, with idiot tourists not paying attention to where they're walking. I swear some of them actually try to get hit. I can't imagine bringing an Amtrak train through there.
 
I get that eminent domain is a touchy subject, and I'll admit that my biggest character flaw is easily my propensity towards tearing down or punching through things I see as obstacles to progress. It's why I'm so forward with advocating for eminent domain takeovers (among other things), something that I've been assured is quite terrifying to other people. And at the end of the day, taking the scorched-earth stance probably does more harm overall than it does good - but, I think the same can be said of going too far in the other direction, of being far too gun-shy and so unwilling to take an unfavorable position that you end up causing your projects and yourself far more trouble than you would have if you'd taken the unfavorable position to begin with.

Well, to move back towards the original topic - I could easily see a Westbrook Station getting built in the vicinity of Cumberland Mills, probably off of what looks like an empty lot on Warren Avenue. I think you're selling yourself short by pushing for a flag stop - the geometry of the curve introduced by the Westbrook detour is far too unforgiving to be cleared at a rate of speed faster than 10 mph. Once you decelerate that much, it hurts you nothing (or else close enough to nothing to be a rounding error) to come to a full stop. Back Bay is an excellent example of this in action.

I don't think picking up Westbrook is enough to take the sting off of the Westbrook detour, and it certainly wouldn't be reason enough on its own to go forward with this - but it's something to think about. Also, to the point of the credit union - I'm not familiar with that credit union in particular, but as I understand it, most credit unions tend to be favorable towards community development projects. I think there would exist the opportunity to come to a favorable agreement with them for the land, especially if you can sell them on the merits of passenger/commuter rail in the area and then give them space in the station itself. Again, I don't know if a proposal along that line is actionable, but it's probably worth some consideration at least. Certainly, I'd expect the McDonald's and the Subway that the Westbrook detour would end up demolishing to move into PTC and/or a Westbrook Station, and probably at a reduced rate as part of the buy-out package.

There are options for taking over the land that aren't totally negative - just because I'm not particularly averse to exercising eminent domain powers if and when negotiations break down doesn't mean I wouldn't much rather come to a mutually beneficial agreement with all affected parties. After all, "New Westbrook routing of the Downeaster moves forward with full support from local partners" sounds a whole hell of a lot better than "After deal for land acquisition falls through, local businesses prepared for lengthy eminent domain battle," does it not?
 
The Turnpike ROW idea was actually mentioned to me by someone from Maine DOT — main reason being that the ROW is sufficient for a high-speed rail line (they recently widened most overpasses in Portland to accommodate a 6-lane highway, which is now unlikely to be built) and because the ROW contribution from the Turnpike Authority could be leveraged as a local match for federal funding.

This is pretty much a moot argument, though. The probability of any of these ideas moving from lines on the map to budget line item is roughly equivalent to the odds of NNEPRA finding a spare $100 million in the luggage car.
 
cneal said:
The Turnpike ROW idea was actually mentioned to me by someone from Maine DOT — main reason being that the ROW is sufficient for a high-speed rail line (they recently widened most overpasses in Portland to accommodate a 6-lane highway, which is now unlikely to be built) and because the ROW contribution from the Turnpike Authority could be leveraged as a local match for federal funding.

This is pretty much a moot argument, though. The probability of any of these ideas moving from lines on the map to budget line item is roughly equivalent to the odds of NNEPRA finding a spare $100 million in the luggage car.
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The problem is that you're mandated to keep a certain amount of separation between the railroad ROW and the highway concrete. I'm not sure what the exact dimensions are (I want to say it's either 50 feet or 100 feet), but they're definitely more than two highway lanes worth of space - so, while in theory you could slap down tracks in the median at a 1:1 rate of canceled highway lanes to tracks, in practice you actually need 2 or 3 lanes to evaporate for every track.

If the overpasses had been widened to accomodate an 8-lane or 10-lane highway, I could see it, but not at 6 lanes unless you're willing to push the highway out and trade the excess space on the shoulders for more room to work in the median, which is an expensive proposition that might have you running afoul of interstate highway standards and so is unlikely to happen in its own right.

I wouldn't be so quick to count out NNERPA - Wayne Davis has proven himself more than capable of getting things done, and the narrative is ever-so-slowly shifting towards support for passenger rail. There is a non-zero chance that doing something about PTC becomes a budget line item in the future. It's not a big chance, but it very well could happen.
 
They just posted this picture on the "Portland Maine History 1786 to Present" Facebook page (I seriously love that page..so many great historical photos of the city):

577908_457534397644325_928766596_n.jpg


Per the description:

"This is looking east on Commercial Street from the Million Dollar Bridge, circa 1920. Special passenger train is sitting where the Maine Central RR's passenger station was before 1888 (don't know why it is there or even which railroad). Maine Central RR freighthouse to the right (now the container terminal), former MCRR office building to the left; beyond it with the peaked roof was the Boston & Maine RR's former station and offices, at this time a railroad YMCA."

So, running passenger trains along Commercial Street was done in the past. People were smarter in the past, though, and weren't walking around with their faces glued to their smart phones.
 
^Neat photo, thanks for sharing. I assume that the track pictured above went all the way around the Eastern Prom on the current Narrow Gauge right of way and across the old railroad trestle to points north. It makes sense to have rail connection to the bustling waterfront that we apparently had in this part of town. I think my Dad has said that he remembers seeing trains on some part of Commercial Street when he first moved here but I'm not sure when the tracks were paved over.
 
Dr. StrangeHat said:
So, running passenger trains along Commercial Street was done in the past. People were smarter in the past, though, and weren't walking around with their faces glued to their smart phones.
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I have to take objection to this. Just because it was done in the past doesn't necessarily make it a good idea, and certainly doesn't necessarily mean it was a good idea then either.

In this case, I think it'd be a bad idea to restore street-running on Commercial Street - both for the people on the street as well as for the rail services. By necessity, the trains would be capped at a very low rate of speed, and the waterfront itself would be obstructed. Furthermore, I'm certain that it isn't exactly the best thing in the world for the machinery itself to be street-running for any extended length of time - certainly, the half-mile or so it would need of running along Commercial Street. Remember, we aren't talking about LRVs here. While it's certainly possible to design for street-running, I can say with confidence that nothing running on the rails in Portland today has been or would be.

Compounding the problem is that the train would pass alongside the waterfront - and for the several minutes that it's making its slow jaunt on through, access to the docks would be blocked. This would happen at least a dozen times a day, no questions asked. More if freight ever ran on those rails - and certainly, with the docks right there, freight wanting access isn't outside the realm of probability.

Certainly, in a vacuum, I think restoring that connection and moving Portland's station over to the waterfront makes sense - but I don't think on a practical level it can or should be done, and I think the reasons for that are more complex than "well, people are just dumber than they were 90 years ago."

(Of course, if you were going to run a streetcar/LRV in downtown Portland, Commercial Street is one of the best options for it, but that's not what's being discussed here.)
 
Dr. StrangeHat said:
That option was discussed, but it was deemed unfeasible. I can see why, though. Ever try to drive down Commercial Street in the summer? It's a real-life game of Frogger, with idiot tourists not paying attention to where they're walking. I swear some of them actually try to get hit. I can't imagine bringing an Amtrak train through there.
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Dr. StrangeHat said:
People were smarter in the past, though, and weren't walking around with their faces glued to their smart phones.
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;)
 
Corey said:
^Neat photo, thanks for sharing. I assume that the track pictured above went all the way around the Eastern Prom on the current Narrow Gauge right of way and across the old railroad trestle to points north. It makes sense to have rail connection to the bustling waterfront that we apparently had in this part of town. I think my Dad has said that he remembers seeing trains on some part of Commercial Street when he first moved here but I'm not sure when the tracks were paved over.
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The RR tracks were still be used in the early 1970's, by Portland Terminal Company (Maine Central RR) and Canadian National. There were some businesses down there that still received boxcars of goods, either dry or refrigerated. The tracks did indeed run around the East End and across the Back Cove trestle, but were owned by different companies.
 
Northern New England Regional & High Speed Rail ideas

Portland Metro - Electric tram train
Gorham
Westbrook
Rosemont
Portland Union
West End
Old Port
East End
East Deening
Cumberland Foreside
Yarmouth
Yarmouth JCT
Auburn
Lewiston

Rockland/Brunswick line
Portland Union
Riverton
Yarmouth JCT
Brunswick
Freeport
Bath
Wiscasset
New Castle
Thomaston
Rockland

Downeaster Local
Milford
Old Town
Orono
Bangor
Newport
Pittsfield
Fairfield
Waterville
Augusta
Gardner
Brunswick
Freeport
Yarmouth JCT
Riverton
Portland Union
Old Orchard Beach
Saco-Biddeford
Wells
Dover
Durham-UNH
Exeter
Lawrenece
Haverhill
Woburn
North Station
 
I may be new on this board, but I do know a few things about what's been discussed in this thread, so here goes. (Fair warning: I'm a Portlander and a little bit of a railfan, but I am in no way, shape or form a "transit advocate.")

  1. The northbound wye leg from PTC to the Pan Am main line is not off the table. NNEPRA's recent Annual Report specifically says they'd like to build it presuming they can find funding. I don't think they'd consider eating the 15 minutes at PTC for the brake test a loss compared to the mile-long backup move they have now. So far as having to have a cab car on the back end, they have that now: there's a cabbage on the Boston end, and an engine on the Portland end. It's arranged that way because they aren't allowed to park a running diesel under the TD Garden overhang.
  2. The major unaddressed obstacle to the Westbrook rerouting that was mentioned is the reason the Portland & Rochester was cut off in the first place: there's no room to run a train under the Turnpike by Home Depot & Joker's. If you can find the money to raise the Pike far enough to allow a train to pass under, you've already found the money to build the Mountain Junction wye track. Plus, even if you make it back to Deering Junction, there's no room for a connecting track from the Warren Ave. line to Pan Am Northbound.
  3. So far as the station goes, all the available evidence I've seen indicates that NNEPRA was hoping to build a station on Commercial St., just to the west of the Casco Bay Bridge, in the area that is now being discussed for a cold storage warehouse. That changed when the Forefront project came in, which promised (promises) to give people a reason to be in the Thompson's Point area (not to mentioned being marketed as a Transit-Oriented Development). NNEPRA and Concord Coach don't "split the rent" for the PTC building; the real estate arm of Concord Coach owns the place, so they're effectively NNEPRA's landlords (and it's the only station that NNEPRA has to pay for using). However, with the latest changes to the Forefront project (moving the arena onto the Suburban Propane property), rumors have surfaced (in the Bangor Daily News) that the Portland City Council is thinking of building a new station, essentially in the parking lot that adjoins the current PTC, which would be connected to the arena and parking garage via a skybridge. The pricetag the BDN gave was $25 million.
 
Agreed on your 2nd point

Dr. StrangeHat said:
The crossing at Riverside Street and much of the track in the area has been removed. There's also no overpass or underpass for the Maine Turnpike, which would need to be constructed.
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As much as I'd like to see it, the Westbrook re-routing simply is not feasible. The wye discussed in your point #1 is by far the most viable option to take 15 minutes off the Downeaster schedule.

I also think the West Commercial Street station next to the Casco Bay Bridge is off the table now, too, with Eimskip moving into the International Marine Terminal and wanting to expand and connect to rail.
 
Again, this is just a bureaucrat drawing lines on the map, so take it with a huge grain of salt. But the MDOT official I talked with a couple years ago, talking about long-range expansion options, was not talking about re-routing the line through Westbrook. His route went out the Mountain Division line to the Turnpike, turned right, then followed the Turnpike ROW north-northeast up to the Blackstrap Road area in Falmouth, where trains would rejoin the Pan Am line.

One reason to do this is that the Turnpike route would only have 5 street crossings (at Brighton, Warren, Forest, Riverside and Blackstrap) compared to over 15 on the current Pan Am route. This guy also suggested that freight traffic should also be encouraged to use the bypass, since there aren't many rail-dependent businesses in the Morrill's Corner area any longer, and repurpose the existing line from Riverton to Libbytown as a cheap light rail line.
 
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