Providence-Cape Cod railroad idea

Commuting Boston Student

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Incredibly stupid for whom? This is a service paid for by RIDOT and serving the RI commuter market. All decisions about that service are going to hinge on how to maximize its advantage for the RI commuter market. Attleboro, MA's needs are not RIDOT's concern. And if RIDOT ponies up the subsidy within its MBTA contract to run a RI-centric service...like they are doing elsewhere...the T will go where they tell it to go. The T is slap-happy to run its trains on somebody else's money...that's how we're getting from Boston to Hyannis in 2013, no?

What I can say is that you have 10 years of Cape Codder data from 1986-96 to chew on and make educated guesses about the Providence-Cape ridership subset from the CC's original D.C.-Hyannis run. The Cape Codder went: Providence, Taunton, Wareham (M'boro didn't exist back then), BB, Sandwich, West Barnstable, Hyannis. No NEC stops. This is the most recent regular service run to the Cape, and the most reliable template for any new service.

OK...establishing that, if RIDOT is picking up the tab it is a reasonable assumption that they are going to want to pick up tix and parking revenue on this run from Pawtucket to max their intake and help fund this thing. Amtrak wouldn't want that, but this isn't Amtrak: it's a home-state service with a vested interest in serving Pawtucket station. Add that to the schedule as basic cost of doing business. Yes, it's a few minutes of schedule burn...on a stretch of NEC between Providence and Central Falls where you're only hitting 40-50 MPH to begin with. Not the end of the world.

Where's that leave the Attleboros? I don't know, but if you're working off the known-knowns from the Cape Codder service template and have to ration in-state revenue collection needs with your choice of possible NEC intermediates...this service map doesn't start with both of them included. It may end with one or more of them *earning* their way onto the schedule, but you don't start kicking numbers around that far removed from the known-knowns in the baseline. We aren't reaching here with a speculative market or a megaproject...it's re-initiating a recent service for a more narrowly-defined local market than the old D.C. intercity direct, and doing it with gradual upgrades that work Cape-backwards and overlap areas-first (i.e. Middleboro Jct. south). Nobody is doing this for NEC corridor development. That comes last when RI starts wrapping all its overlapping commuter rail dreams around a Providence hub. If Boston-Hyannis is a limited service that can gingerly start in 2013 and meet or exceed modest projections right from Season 1, Providence-Hyannis is a limited service that can gingerly start in 2015 on modest and easily exceedable projections when the T has more pooled equipment available and there's been a couple years worth of incremental speed improvements south of Middleboro.

That's it. Known-knowns, sharply defined market, conservative reach...build it up from there with the demand cresting at their backs. Even the T's not going to bother with the fully ADA'd and well-maintained Sandwich and West Barnstable intermediates for Season 1 until it gets more 40 MPH track to run on. There's no way it's going to be zippy enough east of Attleboro for Season 1 from Providence to consider stopping at any of the current or pending NEC intermediates. If South-frickin'-Attleboro's place in the pecking order is giving ANYONE indigestion...may I suggest not overthinking this so much at least for the first few seasons of service?
Yes, it's even stupid for RIDOT - because, again, not everybody boarding trains in South Attleboro or Attleboro is going to Boston, and not everybody boarding the Providence-Cape train would be going to the Cape. Also, not to engage in a pointless semantics argument for no reason, but the Cape is not the RI commuter market. Never has been, never will be.

More to the point, the express trains into Wickford that RIDOT is ponying up for - 808, 813, 817, and 819, notable in that they are (excepting a couple of Stoughton Line trains) the only trains which pass through Route 128 without stopping, as well as 806 which does stop at 128 - make stops at Attleboro and South Attleboro. Why? Well, I'm no expert but I'm guessing it's because RIDOT wants them to. And if RIDOT sees the merits of stopping an express train into Boston at the Attleboros, I think it's a safe bet they're going to be stopping their Train to the Cape there, too.

Of course, this is all assuming that it's going to be RIDOT at the helm at all - the entire argument flies out the window if it turns out that the CCRTA wants to run this hypothetical train, which is entire worlds more likely than RIDOT suddenly shifting focus away from South County Commuter Rail and Woonsocket Commuter Rail to go after a train to the Cape - a place which is, once again, well outside of RI's commuter market and has the added "bonus" of being a great way to ferry tourists out of a state that lives and dies on the strength of its tourism market.

CCRTA is serving a completely different market - but they likely want as many people as they can possibly get to pony up for the service, which suggests a full stop-load. Again, two of these are essentially free stops. Pawtucket Station is going in on a relatively twisty and low-speed section of track, and Attleboro is right on top of the split. Three minutes each, plus another minute even on accel/decel times. Seven minutes total isn't a deciding factor for anybody - it's barely worse than a rounding error or being a bit too generous with schedule pad.

If I had to guess, if all the Cape speeds rounded into nice enough shape and it got time to consider adding new intermediates...South Attleboro is still going to be the more likely skip. The station was built in the first place to offset the subsidy-loss induced closure of the original Pawtucket stop, and it sits on 150 MPH-rated straightaway that T diesels could blow through at 90 MPH. If it's a choice of one or the other, Pawtucket's the much lesser drag on the schedule because nothing is moving at full track speed through there. Easy decision. Attleboro-proper...it sits at the junction, so wouldn't burn much 90 MPH territory to plunk a stop there. But I'm still of the mind that you start conservatively, get the end-to-end service cooking, THEN *graduate* new intermediates on their merits.
Now, with CCRTA at the helm, South Attleboro probably looks a whole hell of a lot less attractive. I can see it being skipped - I could, in fact, probably make a good case for it being skipped. My "incredibly stupid" comment only applies to stopping at one of Pawtucket/South Attleboro/Attleboro and skipping the other two. Stopping at two out of three and skipping the least desirable stop - South Attleboro - certainly makes more sense than skipping both Attleboros or stopping at one of them and skipping Pawtucket.

By the way, that logic applies to MBTA service as well once a Pawtucket station is built - I think it'd be a missed opportunity, in a big way, to have some or most Providence Line trains stopping in South Attleboro and skipping over Pawtucket rather than the other way around.

And, no, this isn't going to impact Providence Line headways or make a measurable difference in service levels in Attleboro. Assigning the 90 MPH-rated locos and coaches in the fleet to the Providence pool alone creates far more new schedule slots in Attleboro and S. Attleboro than any Cape service ever would. RIDOT upgrading the freight track to passenger duty from Providence to Central Falls in prep for the new Pawtucket stop creates more schedule slots. 3rd track Readville-Canton, 4th track Readville-Forest Hills, passing tracks at Sharon and Mansfield, wiring up the extra tracks around Attleboro, level boarding at all stops...all of that creates more new schedule slots through Attleboro. There is nothing a Providence-Cape run would add that wouldn't be dwarfed by the regular Providence Line schedule expansion already in the works. Moreso after RIDOT South County is running at full load if the T decides to draw a line in the sand at T.F. Green for one-seat rides to Boston.

Schedule fluffing to Providence is an utterly unimportant consideration for this service vs. the quality of life in Attleboro. If Attleboro generates enough demand to the Cape to *graduate* into this narrowly-targeted RIDOT-run service, so be it. But let's see some study numbers first, because we're working from a service template here and aren't grandfathering intermediates by default. And yes, agencies that study these things, please do study...we don't know, and it would be beneficial to know.
Assigning exclusively 90 MPH equipment to any particular line would require the people lashing up consists to exercise their brains every once in a while, something they've proven unwilling or unable to actually do. (Every time I see a train where every car BUT ONE is a bilevel, I want to scream. Especially if there's a train with exactly one bilevel on it parked somewhere else.)

Level boarding and wiring at all stops isn't coming before 2020, and I think the odds are stacked against the track expansions coming before level boarding does. FRIP is the only thing I'm optimistic about because P&W and RIDOT seem to have their respective acts together. Cautiously optimistic.

That aside, every single train counts. Even if you're only adding one each way, each day, that's still one more opportunity for someone to board the train, and therefore it's that much likelier that the times are going to line up so that taking the train makes sense for somebody.

Would it matter as much if there was a train out every 15 minutes, all day long? Of course not. But that's not happening, that's probably not happening in 2020 and I'd be shocked if we had that in 2035.

But I'll agree with you in as far as I want to see these things studied. I'm just confident that the studies are going to prove me right, that's all.

As for Amtrak...they make a good mint catering to premium-class customers. That's their NEC meal ticket, and that's what got the Cape Codder goodish ridership on the first go-around. I agree that there's a local need that can more immediately be served from Boston or Providence and that the locals are going to have to make the first move on track improvements before Amtrak starts sniffing around. MA didn't exactly have their back in '96, so they'll want to see the commitment. But bottom-line is that if their NEC business class regulars show enough demand for reinstatement of D.C.-Hyannis, that's probably going to be one of the very first routes they revive. Robust Downeaster and Vermonter numbers during tourist season make it a low-risk/high-reward thing to try, and they can get away with charging high fares for it. And equipment, scarce as it perpetually is, is a lot less difficult to come by on warm-weather weekends than it is in the dead of winter or during peak business/school travel periods in Fall or Spring. We aren't talking big equipment needs...the old CC was 2 trainsets total for a Friday and a Sunday. That's barely a drop in the bucket for the NEC equipment pool. It's basically taking a New Haven-terminating Regional, sending it on thru to Providence...then "off-roading" it for a couple extra hours.
Again, not to enter into a semantics argument without reason but the total number of New Haven-terminating Regionals is zero, and until Amtrak stops negotiating with terrorists over 'bridge slots,' the total number of trains they could be running north of New York and aren't also happens to be zero.

Although in this case, based on how I refer to Connecticut's marine trade lobby here and elsewhere, you can probably guess that I don't consider the movable bridges a real obstacle to running more trains.

Brockton has 3 stops, Newton has 3 stops, Wellesley has 3 stops, Needham has 4 stops, Dedham has 3 stops, Melrose has 3 stops, Beverly has 5 stops.

So why is it necessarily bad for Taunton to have 3 stops? (for commuter rail, not Amtrak)
None of those towns merit 3+ stops either, except for Needham and Melrose and both of those should have seen Green and/or Orange Line service a long time ago. Even so, they all have one other thing in common: abysmal ridership numbers.

I can tell you why all of those stops are underperforming: because you've got 3+ stops doing the job of one.

If you axe Montello and Campello, those riders don't evaporate - they go to Brockton, and suddenly Brockton's ridership numbers have tripled! Same with Newton and Wellesley - instead of six stops with some of the lowest ridership numbers in the system, you'd have two stops putting up strong numbers day after day. Same thing's going to happen in Taunton if you build three stops there - the already low ridership expectations just got cut down to a third. With numbers as low as they are already, you just can't afford to divide the numbers like that.

Only, wait, it's even worse in this case! Given the overbuilt palaces promised at every single stop on the line by the South Coast Cheer Squad, we wouldn't just be getting three stations to do the job of one - we'd be paying three times when we could have paid once! And, considering how absurdly inflated the price tag on this disaster is already, paying more than we have to ought to be the last thing on anyone's mind.

Which is probably why, as F-Line mentioned, three stops for Taunton was put to paper and seriously proposed, possibly multiple times at that. It's not about great service, passable service, or anything that has any basis in reality. It's about paying more and getting polished shit - but polished shit stinks just as bad as regular shit, no matter how much you get it to shine.

Brockton and Newton cover a large amount of area. Needham, Newton, Melrose, and perhaps even Dedham are suited to rapid transit conversions. Beverly also covers some decent area, and some of those stops are split into two lines of service, and even then some of them don't see stops for all of the trains which pass through. All of these stations are also very old, too, and some not ADA compatible in the slightest. They're not massive, bloated hogs with 800 foot high level side platforms with elevators and ramps up the wazoo and a massive parking lot that never fills.
Newton isn't covering that large an area when you get right down to it, which factors in to why all three of those stops are struggling. (Not the only reason, but it's one of them.) Brockton's iffier, which is maybe why those three stops are the best-performing three stops of all 21 stops mentioned.
 

F-Line to Dudley

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Brockton has 3 stops, Newton has 3 stops, Wellesley has 3 stops, Needham has 4 stops, Dedham has 3 stops, Melrose has 3 stops, Beverly has 5 stops.

So why is it necessarily bad for Taunton to have 3 stops? (for commuter rail, not Amtrak)
It's bad because the stop spacing would've been absurd and would've rendered a would-be single track line nearly un-dispatchable around train meets with the schedules they were originally proposing to run on each branch. Yes...you can support close-spaced stops on a line that was engineered for it. This problem is this one wasn't engineered for it. The 3-stop idea got dropped years ago because of that...about the time the original schedules and ridership projections started getting revised down, down, down.

Taunton can't support 3 stations because it took a total bullshit service plan to make them believe they could support 3 stations in the first place. Once that myth got convincingly dispelled they settled on the notion of 2 stops.


It has nothing to do with "if Town X 'deserves' it, then why doesn't Town Y". SCR's outer stops are a whole hell of a further away from the terminal and have to fork off more separate branchlines than any of those other towns you name. Beverly's right near 128 and has two double-tracked branches forking off each other. Taunton's outside of 495 and has to tether off a single-track NEC branch that then forks even further outside of 495 into two more single-track branches. That's a huge difference in train capacity and a huge difference in dispatching difficulty. Even Brockton on the relatively constrained Old Colony is a lot closer to South Station and a lot closer to the branch junctions in Braintree for juggling a robust schedule's worth of train meets.

SCR stopped making any sense when they surrendered full double-tracking of the main as their first NIMBY concession, but pressed forward with the branch stations and their parking orgies like nothing ever changed with their baseline capacity.
 

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Yes, it's even stupid for RIDOT - because, again, not everybody boarding trains in South Attleboro or Attleboro is going to Boston, and not everybody boarding the Providence-Cape train would be going to the Cape. Also, not to engage in a pointless semantics argument for no reason, but the Cape is not the RI commuter market. Never has been, never will be.

More to the point, the express trains into Wickford that RIDOT is ponying up for - 808, 813, 817, and 819, notable in that they are (excepting a couple of Stoughton Line trains) the only trains which pass through Route 128 without stopping, as well as 806 which does stop at 128 - make stops at Attleboro and South Attleboro. Why? Well, I'm no expert but I'm guessing it's because RIDOT wants them to. And if RIDOT sees the merits of stopping an express train into Boston at the Attleboros, I think it's a safe bet they're going to be stopping their Train to the Cape there, too.
You cannot compare a train schedule that runs from Boston to ____, RI on the Providence Line to one that runs from ____, RI to Cape Cod. One is a baseline Providence Line train by any other name that expresses or turns in different spots, and one does THIS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED THING TO A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED PLACE. They don't dispatch the same or have the same schedule dependencies, they don't serve the same audience...the services don't do anything the same except share 10 miles of the same track, 1 anchor terminal, and possibly some pool equipment.

They're not related. Providence Line boardings in Attleboro are not an accurate predictor of would-be Rhody-Cape Weekend Fun Train boardings in Attleboro. Study it...yes, please study it. But don't work from a default assumption that they're related. Show there's a market for each intermediate stop first before adding it to this locals-only rehash of the Cape Codder routing.

And please point out where I suggested this was in any way serving the daily COMMUTER RAIL market any more than the Beantown-Cape Weekend Fun Train starting next summer. The semantic argument here is disagreement on what schedule load this actually entails. I think you're severely overestimating it. BOS-BB...yes, I think that's a viable full-blown Middleboro Line CR schedule to be had there like, tomorrow. BOS-HYA...not nearly so much, but there may be some potential to slow-cook a modest commuter schedule buildup over time. A long time, after many baby-steps upgrades. PVD-HYA...no, never a full commuter schedule. We are talking weekend excursions...Fri.-Sun. with a couple trips per day and maybe a crack-of-dawn Mon. train.

Same thing with Amtrak. The original Cape Codder was ONE round-trip per week...leave D.C. on a Fri., return on a Sun. Two train movements spread over 3 days, and 1-1/2 days in between where the trainset is available for regular NEC duty. I don't know why you seem to think that is such a strain on critical Amtrak resources. It's extremely limited service. But it did pretty well for that service.

The local service would be a bit more frequent than the old Cape Codder, by a lot. But relative to the Providence Line schedule...it's almost as much a drop in the bucket vs. the commuter schedule.


Of course, this is all assuming that it's going to be RIDOT at the helm at all - the entire argument flies out the window if it turns out that the CCRTA wants to run this hypothetical train, which is entire worlds more likely than RIDOT suddenly shifting focus away from South County Commuter Rail and Woonsocket Commuter Rail to go after a train to the Cape - a place which is, once again, well outside of RI's commuter market and has the added "bonus" of being a great way to ferry tourists out of a state that lives and dies on the strength of its tourism market.

CCRTA is serving a completely different market - but they likely want as many people as they can possibly get to pony up for the service, which suggests a full stop-load. Again, two of these are essentially free stops. Pawtucket Station is going in on a relatively twisty and low-speed section of track, and Attleboro is right on top of the split. Three minutes each, plus another minute even on accel/decel times. Seven minutes total isn't a deciding factor for anybody - it's barely worse than a rounding error or being a bit too generous with schedule pad.



Now, with CCRTA at the helm, South Attleboro probably looks a whole hell of a lot less attractive. I can see it being skipped - I could, in fact, probably make a good case for it being skipped. My "incredibly stupid" comment only applies to stopping at one of Pawtucket/South Attleboro/Attleboro and skipping the other two. Stopping at two out of three and skipping the least desirable stop - South Attleboro - certainly makes more sense than skipping both Attleboros or stopping at one of them and skipping Pawtucket.

By the way, that logic applies to MBTA service as well once a Pawtucket station is built - I think it'd be a missed opportunity, in a big way, to have some or most Providence Line trains stopping in South Attleboro and skipping over Pawtucket rather than the other way around.
...and I think you're overthinking the scope of this. Bigtime.

Assigning exclusively 90 MPH equipment to any particular line would require the people lashing up consists to exercise their brains every once in a while, something they've proven unwilling or unable to actually do. (Every time I see a train where every car BUT ONE is a bilevel, I want to scream. Especially if there's a train with exactly one bilevel on it parked somewhere else.)

Level boarding and wiring at all stops isn't coming before 2020, and I think the odds are stacked against the track expansions coming before level boarding does. FRIP is the only thing I'm optimistic about because P&W and RIDOT seem to have their respective acts together. Cautiously optimistic.
All of the Kawasaki bi-levels in the fleet are being retrofitted to the new Rotem cars' specs, so they'll get speed limits uprated. I don't think the coach fleet's going to be a problem if 100% of the bi's can do 90. It's keeping the loco classes segregated where MBCR has to show it cares enough.

Of course, Amtrak has a nice carrot-and-stick with its dispatching control of the NEC. They can always crack down on what schedule slots it allows if the T isn't giving an honest effort at assigning up-to-caliber equipment. If they really want more/better slots, they'll be motivated in a hurry. This is the first time in their history they'll have 'motivational' equipment at their disposal. MBCR may be lazy...but they're not totally stupid.


That aside, every single train counts. Even if you're only adding one each way, each day, that's still one more opportunity for someone to board the train, and therefore it's that much likelier that the times are going to line up so that taking the train makes sense for somebody.

Would it matter as much if there was a train out every 15 minutes, all day long? Of course not. But that's not happening, that's probably not happening in 2020 and I'd be shocked if we had that in 2035.

But I'll agree with you in as far as I want to see these things studied. I'm just confident that the studies are going to prove me right, that's all.
And again, that's the semantics argument here...you are waaaaaaaaaaaaay overestimating the size of the schedules needed to run a useful excursion service to the Cape. Look how constrained the Old Colony CR schedule is...they found the slots for Hyannis out of Boston. You're fretting about 10 miles of coexistence on the NEC out of Providence??? Yikes.

Boston-Hyannis, Year 1, 2013 season...replicated out of Providence, Year 1, 2015 season. Start from there. Slow-grow the track speeds. Slow-grow an extra slot. In each successive season. Until it's serving the local weekender market well enough from the north and the west. Then add Amtrak...on the same ONE PER WEEKEND schedule out of D.C. And slow-grow that...so it's a little faster in Years 2 or 3. And maybe, just maybe, by Year 5 there's room for another train.

And you're worried about making it from Providence to Attleboro Jct. without causing a back-up? And worried about intermediate stops?

Think smaller. MUCH smaller.
 

Ron Newman

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One reason to have multiple stops in a town is to facilitate walking to the stops, therefore reducing or removing the requirements for parking.

I vaguely recall the MBTA wanting to close the Belmont and Waverley stops, replacing them with a new stop in between -- which would have been in the middle of nowhere. Thankfully that plan seems to have met its deserved death.
 

Nexis4jersey

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Ok, I have to ask. Where did the "at least 50,000" figure come from. I'm from that area of Massachusetts, I am a big supporter of the development of that region, and I'm a very big supporter of LRT. However, I think that figure is ridiculous.

There are only 500,000 people along the route (inc. Providence and East Providence) to begin with. You're assuming 10% of the population would use that line. Why? If they're commuting to Providence, driving will be faster. Even with traffic. There will be little/no traffic for commuters from Providence to Fall River/New Bedford/Wareham. Light rail, for all intents and purposes, really only travels a max of 65mph. Now when you factor in stops along the route (and there are many), the LRT vehicles will only spend a small portion of the commute at 65mph. A motorist will be driving 65+ for the vast majority of their commute.

Parking in Providence/Fall River/New Bedford is cheap and readily available. It's not like Boston/NY/Philadelphia where it's $20+ per day to park. Traffic isn't much of an issue (Providence gets backed up on 195 for about a mile or 2 before the S. Main St. exit to downtown during a bad rush hour). And most people in that region live in households which require multiple vehicles anyway because even with a LRT connection between the cities, getting anywhere else requires driving.

Finally, a huge percentage of the population living along your proposed LRT corridor doesn't commute along I-195. Many people in the Fall River and New Bedford areas commute to work in Boston (via routes 79,24 and 140), to offices along route 128 (Burlington, Waltham, Dedham, etc), the South Shore (Quincy, Braintree, etc), Taunton, Brockton, etc. Between the people who live but don't work on the I-195 corridor and the people who do work on that corridor but would drive anyway, there's absolutely no way that you'd see anywhere even close to 50,000 commuters per day on that light rail line. And the VAST majority of the commuters who do use such a line would be from right within Providence and East Providence which would make an extension to Wareham an obscene waste of money. With a faster, more express Cape Codder service already in place, I couldn't even justify a seasonal LRT route to Wareham from Providence.

BRT isn't always more expensive than LRT. I'm not sure where that comes from. In this particular case, I can't imagine BRT would be more expensive when you factor in the cost of Infrastucture. For LRT, you need to reclaim ROWs (much of it is in poor shape or being used for other purposes like Bike trails), build large bridges (how does your LRT line cross from Providence to East Providence, Somerset to Fall River? How about New Bedford to Fairhaven?), and lay all sorts of new track and catenary. For BRT, you really only need to modify I-195. For the most part it would mean adding designated BRT lanes to the highway. No additional bridges or reclaiming ROWs.

As for stations, build platforms in the middle of the highway and have parking lots and pedestrian overpasses adjacent to the highway (similar to the outer edges of Chicago's Blue Line near O'Hare or BART in the outer reaches of the network along I-580). Most riders along the route would have to drive to the stations anyway because outside of Fall River, Providence and New Bedford most towns are suburban/rural and there aren't too many walkable neighborhoods. I-195 passes literally right underneath downtown Fall River which would make a BRT stop in that city about as Centrally located as humanly possible. You could even have the entrance/exit to the station come right up into the City Hall lobby. I-195 passes within a mile of downtown New Bedford too. In fact, it passes right through the middle of the most densely populated section of the city and one of the most crucial development districts (Acushnet Avenue and the Hicks-Logan area). Having a station there would be incredibly beneficial. Of course, since this is a pipe dream anyway, transferring to the New Bedford station from downtown would be easy on the city's local streetcar network. Outside of those cities, most of the area is suburban or rural and would be fiercely opposed to any major development in their communities.

Your concern is that BRT won't create economic development. I tend to agree that BRT generally isn't nearly as good at creating economic development. However, there are only a few pockets along that corridor that would really welcome any TOD/Urban development and those pockets would be served fairly well by BRT along I-195.

I'm not a BRT fan. I almost always support LRT in favor of it. I know there will never be any real transit connection between Providence and the South Coast of MA (aside from regular city bus service), but I can't imagine 50,000+ daily riders on a LRT network along the South Coast and there's no way a LRT network would be cheaper than accommodating BRT along I-195. Now, if there was a way to make faster LRT run along I-195, I'd support that over both. However, it would never happen.
1. , For Ridership I factored in the Job Hubs along the lines including the small towns like , Warren , Bristol , Barrington , and cities like Providence , East Providence , Fall River , New Bedford along with the various University's along the network. Like the University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth , Brown University & Roger Williams Law School. I also factored in future TOD like in and around New Bedford , Fall River , along the US 6 Corridor and in East Providence. When you factored in all of Commuter Patterns , University Students , and Future TOD , 50-80,000 isn't that high...

2. I'm thinking about the growing population who does want to drive , what about the Elderly or Disabled? Its not just about the Future congestion along the corridor but best serving everyones needs which my proposal does. Sure the Eldery and the Disabled will only make up a few thousand of the 50-80,000 daily riders , but you have to think about them. Along with Tourist sites along the network , these lines would super charge the regional tourism industry. Also the cost of gas is likely to climb in the future , up to 15$ by 2030 if China and India continue there Auto booms....would like to see the small towns and cities struggle or be able to survive people in this region need Alts.

3.
Parking may be cheap for now , but Gas is becoming more and more expensive it was only a decade ago that it was 1.50$ a gallon and now it ranges between 3-5$. And it will only increase not providing alts is foolish at best and will lead to the further collapse of a weak region. Building the network would strengthen the network.

4. BRT Is pretty pricey in this region , look at the Urban Ring and New Britian - Hartford BRT at those prices at might as well be LRT and the development spured by BRT is pretty small. Although the Seaport development is huge , but other then that most BRT developments are small. Reclaiming ROW for Light Rail is easy compared to other forms of Rail , the space needed is that much and often the trail can co-Exist next to the line.

5. Your taking the cheap and low ridership way out with a LRT/BRT proposal along the Interstate. You of all people should no that ridership isn't that high with lines that hug the Interstate....and development opportunities are often not there or suppressed. Developers also tend to shy away from development along Interstates due to the noise and pollution... The CTA Blue line is one of the Worst for Ridership along with the Dan Ryan part of the Red line , people cite the noise and pollution among other things for not using it. BART along 580 is a boondoggle , Ridership is below where it was projected and development along the corridor is Suburban. My Proposal services most of population along the corridor. Studies have shown people are willing to walk up to 1/2 a mile to a transit stop so that takes care of most of the corridor. I propose a new Bridge over the Taunton River , a transit only Cable Stayed Bridge with tracks for LRT , BRT and Sidewalk... BRT would run along I-195 between Providence and Fall River terminating at the City Hall. The BRT can run along the highway but the LRT should run along the old ROWs and dense or high trafficked corridors.

6. What areas along are I-195 are ripe for development?
 

Commuting Boston Student

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You cannot compare a train schedule that runs from Boston to ____, RI on the Providence Line to one that runs from ____, RI to Cape Cod. One is a baseline Providence Line train by any other name that expresses or turns in different spots, and one does THIS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED THING TO A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED PLACE. They don't dispatch the same or have the same schedule dependencies, they don't serve the same audience...the services don't do anything the same except share 10 miles of the same track, 1 anchor terminal, and possibly some pool equipment.

They're not related. Providence Line boardings in Attleboro are not an accurate predictor of would-be Rhody-Cape Weekend Fun Train boardings in Attleboro. Study it...yes, please study it. But don't work from a default assumption that they're related. Show there's a market for each intermediate stop first before adding it to this locals-only rehash of the Cape Codder routing.
They have overlapping schedule dependencies and stand a very good chance of winding up with an overlapping dispatcher. Same or similar equipment, same or similar end points, and 10 miles (more if the service terminates at T.F. Green, which is likely no matter how you slice it) of shared track means that they're actually not as different as you're claiming they are!

If you ask me, working from the assumption that they're totally disconnected is just as much of a fallacy. I also think that the time to look at and demonstrate demand for intermediate stops is right now - while such a run is in its planning phases. If the studies say I'm wrong, so be it - but that requires us to have the studies at all.

And, for the record,

And please point out where I suggested this was in any way serving the daily COMMUTER RAIL market any more than the Beantown-Cape Weekend Fun Train starting next summer. The semantic argument here is disagreement on what schedule load this actually entails. I think you're severely overestimating it.
Here's the first two sentences of the first paragraph of your previous post:

Incredibly stupid for whom? This is a service paid for by RIDOT and serving the RI commuter market.
Now, we agree that a commuter train and an excursion train are not the same thing. I think that, if operated frequently enough, commuters become an ancillary market for a commuter train, as evidenced by the overwhelming number of people riding Amtrak between Boston and Providence and between New Haven and New York and between Baltimore and Washington, despite commuter lines being in place for all three. In fact, two out of those three aren't even really that bad!

BOS-BB...yes, I think that's a viable full-blown Middleboro Line CR schedule to be had there like, tomorrow. BOS-HYA...not nearly so much, but there may be some potential to slow-cook a modest commuter schedule buildup over time. A long time, after many baby-steps upgrades. PVD-HYA...no, never a full commuter schedule. We are talking weekend excursions...Fri.-Sun. with a couple trips per day and maybe a crack-of-dawn Mon. train.

Same thing with Amtrak. The original Cape Codder was ONE round-trip per week...leave D.C. on a Fri., return on a Sun. Two train movements spread over 3 days, and 1-1/2 days in between where the trainset is available for regular NEC duty. I don't know why you seem to think that is such a strain on critical Amtrak resources. It's extremely limited service. But it did pretty well for that service.

The local service would be a bit more frequent than the old Cape Codder, by a lot. But relative to the Providence Line schedule...it's almost as much a drop in the bucket vs. the commuter schedule.




...and I think you're overthinking the scope of this. Bigtime.
And I think you're underthinking the scope of this. The days of one round-trip weekly are over. If Amtrak brings that route back, it's coming back as four round-trips weekly at minimum - and I really don't see it coming back as anything other than one daily. No more, no less.

By the way, I expect there to be one or more daily runs on the Boston-Cape train by the end of June. ("Just in time for Independence Day!") Not everyone is working 9-5 Monday-Friday anymore, and while the weekend excursion market hasn't diminished any, there's nothing precluding a great many trips starting on Monday or Thursday and ending on Tuesday or Wednesday instead. And, whether we're talking about a commuter or an excursion train T.F. Green-Hyannis, I expect one train daily as the minimum there, too.

Let's be real. I'm not seeing hourly headways, I'm not seeing five round trips daily... I'd be surprised with three, to be honest. Certainly, though, the days of "one trip out on Friday night, one trip back on Sunday" are well and truly over. That's a pretty great way to shoot yourself in the foot if you tried it today.

And again, that's the semantics argument here...you are waaaaaaaaaaaaay overestimating the size of the schedules needed to run a useful excursion service to the Cape. Look how constrained the Old Colony CR schedule is...they found the slots for Hyannis out of Boston. You're fretting about 10 miles of coexistence on the NEC out of Providence??? Yikes.

Boston-Hyannis, Year 1, 2013 season...replicated out of Providence, Year 1, 2015 season. Start from there. Slow-grow the track speeds. Slow-grow an extra slot. In each successive season. Until it's serving the local weekender market well enough from the north and the west. Then add Amtrak...on the same ONE PER WEEKEND schedule out of D.C. And slow-grow that...so it's a little faster in Years 2 or 3. And maybe, just maybe, by Year 5 there's room for another train.

And you're worried about making it from Providence to Attleboro Jct. without causing a back-up? And worried about intermediate stops?

Think smaller. MUCH smaller.
I'm not fretting about anything. I never claimed there would be backups on the line. All I'm arguing is that there's no real reason to preclude the commuter market on this stretch of the NEC. Do I want it emphasized? No, of course not! But if it costs you basically nothing in money and in time to stop the train at two more stations, why wouldn't you?

Mind you, if you really want this to be an excursion train and only an excursion train, then - cut Pawtucket, cut both Attleboros, cut Middleboro, and run T.F. Green - Providence - Taunton - Wareham. T.F. Green's there so you can market your Train to the Cape to people flying in - why deal with Logan and Boston if you don't have to? - and anyone on the Providence Line can ride into Providence for the transfer. I have no problem with that, I think that's a perfectly acceptable way to run this train.

It's when you're saying "well, make some of the commuter stops but skip others" that I start seeing an issue.
 

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They have overlapping schedule dependencies and stand a very good chance of winding up with an overlapping dispatcher. Same or similar equipment, same or similar end points, and 10 miles (more if the service terminates at T.F. Green, which is likely no matter how you slice it) of shared track means that they're actually not as different as you're claiming they are!

If you ask me, working from the assumption that they're totally disconnected is just as much of a fallacy. I also think that the time to look at and demonstrate demand for intermediate stops is right now - while such a run is in its planning phases. If the studies say I'm wrong, so be it - but that requires us to have the studies at all.
T.F. Green-Attleboro Jct. is the *highest* capacity portion of the NEC east of New Haven. And it'll get higher-capacity still when the FRIP work starts happening between Providence and Central Falls and when the extra tracks in Attleboro get wired up. Dispatching that is a piece of cake vs. juggling a Providence Line train in mixed traffic from SS to Canton Jct. The number of Cape slots you'd be talking is about the same as the number of freight movements per day through there. Hell...if CSX dumps its Middleboro daily on MassCoastal that's +2 evening schedule slots that open up 6 days a week. P&W can get instructions on Cape train days to use only the East Providence Secondary to serve its East Junction Branch customers in Attleboro, Seekonk, and E. Providence instead of taking the NEC shortcut on a loop through S. Attleboro. CSX can bump its non-Middleboro Attleboro weeklies and run-as-directed 'flex' slots to non-Cape train days.

There aren't train conflicts today. There definitely won't be post-upgrades. But even if there were a conflict the freights can be bartered with around the weekend. Non-issue.



Here's the first two sentences of the first paragraph of your previous post:
Bad word choice on my part. This is clearly a weekender market, not a weekday commuter. But if RIDOT's paying they get to decide what their weekender market is. Backed by the appropriate study data.

Now, we agree that a commuter train and an excursion train are not the same thing. I think that, if operated frequently enough, commuters become an ancillary market for a commuter train, as evidenced by the overwhelming number of people riding Amtrak between Boston and Providence and between New Haven and New York and between Baltimore and Washington, despite commuter lines being in place for all three. In fact, two out of those three aren't even really that bad!
We'll cross that bridge when we get there. But a Fri.-Sun. / May-Sept. thing isn't going to be something anyone's planning a car-free commute to a job around. This is not exactly a service that's risking mission creep. Boston-Hyannis...yes, that's one where the pent-up demand is eventually going to call for permanent commuter rail to Buzzards Bay and some form of limited year-round schedule on-Cape during commuter hours. Hyannis did have a full-load CR schedule until the whole Old Colony commuter division went splat in '58. There was no such service out of Providence postwar, and no demand for dailies today or in 2020.


And I think you're underthinking the scope of this. The days of one round-trip weekly are over. If Amtrak brings that route back, it's coming back as four round-trips weekly at minimum - and I really don't see it coming back as anything other than one daily. No more, no less.
Take that up with Amtrak management. I'm not going make assumptions on what they're going to be absolutist about, if they're going to be absolutist about anything. However...the Vermonter and Ethan Allan Express don't need two locomotives per train midsummer to push the snow away. Less equipment is in the shop during the summer recovering from cold weather wear-and-tear. Certain routes, like the Ethan Allan (Killington resort) and Downeaster (foliage season) have different seasonal ridership spikes where they'd need extra coaches on the consist. Schools are out and business travelers take vacations...certain Regionals slots aren't so oversold and can run 6-8 cars in summer instead of 8-10. The Cape Codder was 1 loco + 3 coaches back in the day. I would be shocked if it takes more than 4 coaches to run it today. It is not going to be a struggle to bum 4 coaches in midsummer. It is most definitely not going to be a struggle to find diesels when those double-ended snow-pushers have summers off.

By the way, I expect there to be one or more daily runs on the Boston-Cape train by the end of June. ("Just in time for Independence Day!") Not everyone is working 9-5 Monday-Friday anymore, and while the weekend excursion market hasn't diminished any, there's nothing precluding a great many trips starting on Monday or Thursday and ending on Tuesday or Wednesday instead. And, whether we're talking about a commuter or an excursion train T.F. Green-Hyannis, I expect one train daily as the minimum there, too.

Let's be real. I'm not seeing hourly headways, I'm not seeing five round trips daily... I'd be surprised with three, to be honest. Certainly, though, the days of "one trip out on Friday night, one trip back on Sunday" are well and truly over. That's a pretty great way to shoot yourself in the foot if you tried it today.

I'm not fretting about anything. I never claimed there would be backups on the line. All I'm arguing is that there's no real reason to preclude the commuter market on this stretch of the NEC. Do I want it emphasized? No, of course not! But if it costs you basically nothing in money and in time to stop the train at two more stations, why wouldn't you?

Mind you, if you really want this to be an excursion train and only an excursion train, then - cut Pawtucket, cut both Attleboros, cut Middleboro, and run T.F. Green - Providence - Taunton - Wareham. T.F. Green's there so you can market your Train to the Cape to people flying in - why deal with Logan and Boston if you don't have to? - and anyone on the Providence Line can ride into Providence for the transfer. I have no problem with that, I think that's a perfectly acceptable way to run this train.

It's when you're saying "well, make some of the commuter stops but skip others" that I start seeing an issue.
And this is why I can't emphasize enough: THINK SMALLER. The T can't even stop at Barnstable and West Sandwich now because the track speeds are so low. Those are probably going to have to be Year 2 additions. So...what makes anyone think a run out of Providence is going to have the luxury in Years 1, 2, 3 of making too many intermediate stops? I am not talking 2020 here. I'm talking 2015. Year 3 of the Boston-Hyannis trial blowing out its numbers and somebody deciding, "Hey...we're playing with house money here. Let's try one Providence round-trip on a lark and see what happens." You know what's gonna happen...it's going to be oversold and people will want more.

Well...maybe the Old Colony Main is 40 MPH by that point and can make Sandwich and West Barnstable. But the Middleboro Secondary will be a couple years behind the mainline on that improvements curve. Pawtucket's only in final design...that won't exist until 2017 at the earliest. They won't be stopping at the Attleboros when they have to pace themselves on that slow track. It'll be express from Providence to Middleboro for the first couple years. Maybe they get to add a flag stop in Taunton at some point akin to the non-ADA slab of pavement in Wareham, but they've got a few years of work just pacing themselves to Middleboro before those options open up.

It is premature to start talking about Attleboro and South Attleboro. They won't be on any schedule in Year 1. Talking about them now is fretting. I only mention Pawtucket because when it does open it's RIDOT's baby and there's a little self-interest involved in pumping its utilization. Chalk it up to political expediency, but that's how the game's played. But the point is EVEN THAT ONE is going to have to 'graduate' onto the schedule by sheer fact that it won't exist by the time this trial could feasibly start. Now...project X years out and X incremental speed increases out on the slow segments before anyone can even think about adding more intermediates. The Attleboros aren't going to enter the conversation for a few years if self-interest puts RIDOT's Pawtucket pride-and-joy #1 on the pecking order. And if the MA intermediates aren't going to enter the conversation for a few years, then let's see some study numbers saying they're worth adding at all. Or which one is worth adding first.

If you are already seeing a problem in skipping commuter rail stops, then you've jumped the cart about 7 years before the horse. It's a long time before that'll matter. Simplify. This is a slow-grower that physically can't happen on an impatient timetable.
 

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T.F. Green-Attleboro Jct. is the *highest* capacity portion of the NEC east of New Haven. And it'll get higher-capacity still when the FRIP work starts happening between Providence and Central Falls and when the extra tracks in Attleboro get wired up. Dispatching that is a piece of cake vs. juggling a Providence Line train in mixed traffic from SS to Canton Jct. The number of Cape slots you'd be talking is about the same as the number of freight movements per day through there. Hell...if CSX dumps its Middleboro daily on MassCoastal that's +2 evening schedule slots that open up 6 days a week. P&W can get instructions on Cape train days to use only the East Providence Secondary to serve its East Junction Branch customers in Attleboro, Seekonk, and E. Providence instead of taking the NEC shortcut on a loop through S. Attleboro. CSX can bump its non-Middleboro Attleboro weeklies and run-as-directed 'flex' slots to non-Cape train days.

There aren't train conflicts today. There definitely won't be post-upgrades. But even if there were a conflict the freights can be bartered with around the weekend. Non-issue.
You're right, there's absolutely no capacity or conflict issues, and there probably still wouldn't be any capacity issues at maximum build with 24 tph. Once again, I am not coming at this from the position that a Cape Train is somehow going to create conflicts on this stretch of this line. It won't cause a conflict no matter if you're expressing trains or stopping them, it's not going to cause a conflict no matter what top speed any or all of these services are running at.

I am not ruling out a potential conflict further downline caused by the artificial capacity constraint of the mythical "bridge slots" imposed by the political hostage takers of the Marine Trades Association - but that has no bearing on a local service. I'm not making a capacity argument here. I'm making a utilization argument.

Bad word choice on my part. This is clearly a weekender market, not a weekday commuter. But if RIDOT's paying they get to decide what their weekender market is. Backed by the appropriate study data.



We'll cross that bridge when we get there. But a Fri.-Sun. / May-Sept. thing isn't going to be something anyone's planning a car-free commute to a job around. This is not exactly a service that's risking mission creep. Boston-Hyannis...yes, that's one where the pent-up demand is eventually going to call for permanent commuter rail to Buzzards Bay and some form of limited year-round schedule on-Cape during commuter hours. Hyannis did have a full-load CR schedule until the whole Old Colony commuter division went splat in '58. There was no such service out of Providence postwar, and no demand for dailies today or in 2020.



Take that up with Amtrak management. I'm not going make assumptions on what they're going to be absolutist about, if they're going to be absolutist about anything. However...the Vermonter and Ethan Allan Express don't need two locomotives per train midsummer to push the snow away. Less equipment is in the shop during the summer recovering from cold weather wear-and-tear. Certain routes, like the Ethan Allan (Killington resort) and Downeaster (foliage season) have different seasonal ridership spikes where they'd need extra coaches on the consist. Schools are out and business travelers take vacations...certain Regionals slots aren't so oversold and can run 6-8 cars in summer instead of 8-10. The Cape Codder was 1 loco + 3 coaches back in the day. I would be shocked if it takes more than 4 coaches to run it today. It is not going to be a struggle to bum 4 coaches in midsummer. It is most definitely not going to be a struggle to find diesels when those double-ended snow-pushers have summers off.



And this is why I can't emphasize enough: THINK SMALLER. The T can't even stop at Barnstable and West Sandwich now because the track speeds are so low. Those are probably going to have to be Year 2 additions. So...what makes anyone think a run out of Providence is going to have the luxury in Years 1, 2, 3 of making too many intermediate stops? I am not talking 2020 here. I'm talking 2015. Year 3 of the Boston-Hyannis trial blowing out its numbers and somebody deciding, "Hey...we're playing with house money here. Let's try one Providence round-trip on a lark and see what happens." You know what's gonna happen...it's going to be oversold and people will want more.

Well...maybe the Old Colony Main is 40 MPH by that point and can make Sandwich and West Barnstable. But the Middleboro Secondary will be a couple years behind the mainline on that improvements curve. Pawtucket's only in final design...that won't exist until 2017 at the earliest. They won't be stopping at the Attleboros when they have to pace themselves on that slow track. It'll be express from Providence to Middleboro for the first couple years. Maybe they get to add a flag stop in Taunton at some point akin to the non-ADA slab of pavement in Wareham, but they've got a few years of work just pacing themselves to Middleboro before those options open up.

It is premature to start talking about Attleboro and South Attleboro. They won't be on any schedule in Year 1. Talking about them now is fretting. I only mention Pawtucket because when it does open it's RIDOT's baby and there's a little self-interest involved in pumping its utilization. Chalk it up to political expediency, but that's how the game's played. But the point is EVEN THAT ONE is going to have to 'graduate' onto the schedule by sheer fact that it won't exist by the time this trial could feasibly start. Now...project X years out and X incremental speed increases out on the slow segments before anyone can even think about adding more intermediates. The Attleboros aren't going to enter the conversation for a few years if self-interest puts RIDOT's Pawtucket pride-and-joy #1 on the pecking order. And if the MA intermediates aren't going to enter the conversation for a few years, then let's see some study numbers saying they're worth adding at all. Or which one is worth adding first.

If you are already seeing a problem in skipping commuter rail stops, then you've jumped the cart about 7 years before the horse. It's a long time before that'll matter. Simplify. This is a slow-grower that physically can't happen on an impatient timetable.
Forget mission creep - there's no risk that any train is going to be running from Providence to the Cape before 2020. I'm not "thinking small" precisely because I don't see this as a priority item on anybody's radar. No way the MBTA/MBCR starts this up on their own volition, and the CCRTA's not touching this until the CapeFLYER fun train graduates up to a full-scheduled commuter service.

On the great big list of RIDOT/RIPTA priorities, this one comes in well behind South County and Woonsocket Commuter Rail - honestly, this one's probably behind the Worcester Extension to the Woonsocket Commuter Rail! Nevermind that the same "around the horn" routing that the Cape Train would take splits in Taunton - one branch out to the Cape, and one branch down to Newport. If RIDOT's in a position to run trains that far out, do you really think they're going to go for the Cape Train before or instead of the train to Newport? Not. A. Chance. And I'm saying that as somebody who doesn't even like the "around the horn" routing for a Newport train!

And, lest we forget, between enough priority projects to last them several lifetimes and the history they've got with the MBTA, Amtrak's not getting near this one with a 20-foot pole unless someone else is willing to play ball and make it more than worth their while. As you've said yourself in this thread... based on the ongoing debacle that is South Coast FAIL, that ain't happening unless something changes in a big way.

I'm looking at the long game here, because let's face it. This isn't happening for a long, long time.
 

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On the great big list of RIDOT/RIPTA priorities, this one comes in well behind South County and Woonsocket Commuter Rail - honestly, this one's probably behind the Worcester Extension to the Woonsocket Commuter Rail! Nevermind that the same "around the horn" routing that the Cape Train would take splits in Taunton - one branch out to the Cape, and one branch down to Newport. If RIDOT's in a position to run trains that far out, do you really think they're going to go for the Cape Train before or instead of the train to Newport? Not. A. Chance. And I'm saying that as somebody who doesn't even like the "around the horn" routing for a Newport train!

And, lest we forget, between enough priority projects to last them several lifetimes and the history they've got with the MBTA, Amtrak's not getting near this one with a 20-foot pole unless someone else is willing to play ball and make it more than worth their while. As you've said yourself in this thread... based on the ongoing debacle that is South Coast FAIL, that ain't happening unless something changes in a big way.

I'm looking at the long game here, because let's face it. This isn't happening for a long, long time.
The CapeFLYER costs $190K to operate for the 2013 season. It's quite likely going to turn an operating profit. Now, the up-front startup cost is absorbed by CCRTA flex funding for transportation related to tourist season, but it is not a reach and what trains they do add to the schedule will be rationed inside what can break even on operating.

Don't forget as well, as a condition of the state's $100M purchase of CSX property they have IOU's to upgrade the freight track on the South Coast and Cape to ensure that MassCoastal can grow the carloads it interchanges in Middleboro with CSX and that CSX can carry heavier carloads back to Framingham every night. The full slate of improvements is nobody's idea of a capital priority, but they are obligated to throw some token bits of manpower at those tracks every year to inch it forward. It's buried in the line items at MassDOT spread out over the years to pay down that $100M. Some of these improvements already took place this year in the form of grade crossing improvements so MassCoastal doesn't have to stop-and-protect at crossings for its Cape trash train. Nearly all of them are now fully gated from Middleboro to Hyannis, including a couple infill installs this summer. The state also did a full inspection this summer of all MassCoastal territory with its track geometry train to ID all the lumpy spots they'll fix with next year's state-of-repair funding. And they'll have to spread the love to the Middleboro Secondary to likewise do a state-of-repair infusion and gate a couple of the last unprotected crossings.

This is happening now. In this funding environment. And happening enough to get CapeFLYER thrown together in a few months' time. RIDOT gets some flex funding too for tourist season, and is portioning small bits of it to the Newport dinner train to fix up their track. If they want to take a flier on ONE round trip from Providence to the Cape just to see what happens...it's not going to cost them as much to integrate it into the on-Cape schedule because all of CCRTA's associated services are in-gear for a regular in-season train schedule. Total operating cost from Providence on a more limited schedule than from Boston is considerably less than $190K operating and considerably less than $1M of annual flex funding to start up. The bar is much lower for them to break even on a trial schedule.

Yes. That can happen in 2015 if they see a break-even on operating. The chances are at least par. Don't hold out thinking 2020 is when track conditions will improve enough, because that's already creaking along in constant motion. Think smaller. The resource mobilization to 'try' this is much smaller than you seem to be assuming. If CapeFLYER can break even in Year 1, and profit in Years 2 and 3...a Providence trial--only a trial--can launch the first year the numbers look break-even. You think the T isn't distracted enough right now with other things on their plate? They still got this thrown together the second the numbers washed. If it trends like expected, RIDOT can hit that same break-even calculation and it's go-time for a Providence trial. Way before 2020. With other things on their plate.

If intermediate stops, other projects, Amtrak, etc. etc. are even entering the conversation...you're not thinking small enough. The other players here are thinking small enough. That's how we netted a REAL service in the first place. This is no longer the realm of fantasy maps.
 

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