Seaport Transportation

I wasnt implying using track 61. If they can propose the ginormous north south rail links they can propose a tunnell in southie.
 
stick n move said:
I wasnt implying using track 61. If they can propose the ginormous north south rail links they can propose a tunnell in southie.
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Because any tunnel you cut across the Channel...anywhere...blocks the last path for ever constructing the NSRL. The Big Dig only left slots open for threading north-south tunnels between east-west tunnels for the Alt. 1 (Dewey Sq.) and Alt. 2 (Dot Ave.) alignments of the NSRL. There are no new east-west tunnels that can be built without blocking the NSRL.

Dig anything new along the waterfront...no NSRL. Forever. Simple as that.



Second...I repeat: why are you proposing another billion-dollar tunneling job through Southie before doing Red-Blue and the Green-Transitway connector? Those are hands-down the two proportionally hugest downtown congestion relievers, because they actually tie together destinations into and through downtown while load-spreading spreading away from SS/DTX/Park. There is no substitute Option #3 that does the same caliber of load-bearing. Certainly not one that comes in the form of a neighborhood loop-back that doesn't reach anywhere across the other side of Dot Ave.

Either justify the Southie Branch in terms of what congestion looks like after you've saved up the $2.5B to build the other two critically important ones first, or it's a eye-of-beholder boutique project that wastes the same $$$ for a fraction of the benefit. The numbers don't lie which downtown subway digs are head-and-shoulders the highest-impact. This has been studied to death for 40 years.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
Because any tunnel you cut across the Channel...anywhere...blocks the last path for ever constructing the NSRL. The Big Dig only left slots open for threading north-south tunnels between east-west tunnels for the Alt. 1 (Dewey Sq.) and Alt. 2 (Dot Ave.) alignments of the NSRL. There are no new east-west tunnels that can be built without blocking the NSRL.

Dig anything new along the waterfront...no NSRL. Forever. Simple as that.



Second...I repeat: why are you proposing another billion-dollar tunneling job through Southie before doing Red-Blue and the Green-Transitway connector? Those are hands-down the two proportionally hugest downtown congestion relievers, because they actually tie together destinations into and through downtown while load-spreading spreading away from SS/DTX/Park. There is no substitute Option #3 that does the same caliber of load-bearing. Certainly not one that comes in the form of a neighborhood loop-back that doesn't reach anywhere across the other side of Dot Ave.

Either justify the Southie Branch in terms of what congestion looks like after you've saved up the $2.5B to build the other two critically important ones first, or it's a eye-of-beholder boutique project that wastes the same $$$ for a fraction of the benefit. The numbers don't lie which downtown subway digs are head-and-shoulders the highest-impact. This has been studied to death for 40 years.
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Never said anything about it being built before or after any other project, or that it was more important than them. My question is why has this never been proposed.

The reason I presented this is because in 10 years in my opinion the seaport is going to be in dire need of rail transit. This area is going to be the size of downtown with no rail line whatsoever. It may not be very important right now but in the future it is going to be very important. Red to Blue-very important, NSRL-very important, rail transit in seaport-will become very important later down the road. Im not saying build this tomorro, but so far I have seen almost 0 ideas other than the single track 61 dmu which has to wait for a shit ton of right of ways before it can meander down its single track to the convention center.

This would not just be for the seaport. Southie as a whole barely gets touched by rail transit, so a major neighborhood in Boston and the new waterfront innovation district have almost nothing in the way or real transit. This would go through the heart of southie serving lots of people there and also in the seaport.

Get track 61 done soon and then some time 15 years in the future build this and South Boston becomes very well served by rail.
 
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stick n move said:
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Never said anything about it being built before or after any other project, or that it was more important than them. My question is why has this never been proposed.

The reason I presented this is because in 10 years in my opinion the seaport is going to be in dire need of rail transit. This area is going to be the size of downtown with no rail line whatsoever. It may not be very important right now but in the future it is going to be very important. Red to Blue-very important, NSRL-very important, rail transit in seaport-will become very important later down the road. Im not saying build this tomorro, but so far I have seen almost 0 ideas other than the single track 61 dmu which has to wait for a shit ton of right of ways before it can meander down its single track to the convention center.

This would not just be for the seaport. Southie as a whole barely gets touched by rail transit, so a major neighborhood in Boston and the new waterfront innovation district have almost nothing in the way or real transit. This would go through the heart of southie serving lots of people there and also in the seaport.

Get track 61 done soon and then some time 15 years in the future build this and South Boston becomes very well served by rail.
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Stick -- it makes much more sense for your future link [Crazy Transit Pitch Variety] to start near to the existing Boston Globe site on the Braintree branch then add another platform at JFk/UMass which is becoming a major hub for the T and the site of a lot of development
dig deep to cross Dorchester Bay into Southy proper -- station on Broadway & N St. to serve Southy and the beaches
then run under the Reserve Channel to a Station @ Black Falcon
then under Summer St, to the back corner of the BCEC [Cipher & West Service] for the final station [Alewife style dual stub ends] or else connect back to the core of the Red Line @ Broadway
 
Don't know why we would just get rid of transit access near Broadway Station. If people want a rapid transit solution for the Seaport the myriad of Green Line extension plans are more realistic and would result in better coverage for everyone.
 
stick n move said:
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Never said anything about it being built before or after any other project, or that it was more important than them. My question is why has this never been proposed.

The reason I presented this is because in 10 years in my opinion the seaport is going to be in dire need of rail transit. This area is going to be the size of downtown with no rail line whatsoever. It may not be very important right now but in the future it is going to be very important. Red to Blue-very important, NSRL-very important, rail transit in seaport-will become very important later down the road. Im not saying build this tomorro, but so far I have seen almost 0 ideas other than the single track 61 dmu which has to wait for a shit ton of right of ways before it can meander down its single track to the convention center.

This would not just be for the seaport. Southie as a whole barely gets touched by rail transit, so a major neighborhood in Boston and the new waterfront innovation district have almost nothing in the way or real transit. This would go through the heart of southie serving lots of people there and also in the seaport.

Get track 61 done soon and then some time 15 years in the future build this and South Boston becomes very well served by rail.
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In 10 years? Then expend the energy getting the other two built within that 10 years if we're running out the doomsday clock. This hasn't been proposed because mobility through downtown is the limiter, and this thing does zip/zilch/zero to help that until the other projects are done and you can actually move people away from the the Big 3 downtown transfer stops to points N and W. That's where the Seaport congestion is coming from by orders of magnitude more--Downtown, not Dorchester and Quincy. Building a loop that slams into the same un-addressed brick wall of congestion at SS isn't something you can consider in isolation. It has very big and expensive project dependencies on the ones we've known for 40 years have had to be built.

"We haven't built A or B that are going to choke off Seaport mobility if we don't build them, so build completely irrelevant C because reasons" is a false choice. It hasn't been studied because the study itself would be a giant waste of money without the other projects already built and operating. Go accomplish something that matters first with the Transitway connector and de-cloggers for the SS-DTX-Park trinity and then you can study Southie-branching rapid transit lines to heart's content. But don't ask why Step #3 hasn't been born in total isolation of ironclad-prerequisite Steps #1 & 2. That kind of willfully obtuse logic doesn't even qualify it for a few bucks out of somebody's studies-about-studies slush fund.
 
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I didnt say build this before those the first time, second time,and Im not saying it now. All those things you state have been talked about and at some point in the future will be built. Im just saying there has been 0 discussion yet about how to address the problem that South Boston and the seaport will have in the future. The mayor and a lot of other people have stated many times that it is going to be a problem. I was simply giving an idea for that problem and wondering why after they state there is going to be a problem has not 1 single even extremely far fetched solution been thrown around. I have seen a freaking hyperloop to Boston proposal but no proposal for the seaport which everyone has been on record saying will need to happen. It just intrigues me that they acknowledge this but just ignore it. Im not trying to cause an argument here.
 
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The rail conversion of the transit way and proposed expansion of the Green Line IS the proposal for the Seaport, I don't understand what the disconnect is here. Even in Crazy Transit Pitch territory there's no way you can get heavy rail into the Seaport/Southie. The various unofficial proposals on here for getting the Green Line into the existing Silver tunnels is the only way that the Seaport is getting proper transit service.

Until then, get Silver under D, buy more busses, and convince developers to cut down on parking and shell out some money for SL expansion. Actual decision makers and the media have already discussed to death the Track 63 Dinky, and are starting to get onto the SL under D bandwagon.
 
Okay. So is there a real green line extension to southie proposal or is it just talk on here? Are there also any real SL under D proposals, I would be interested to read both.

In the mean time I expanded on the green line idea. This would use the existing silver line tunnel, upon the exit would make a right turn onto D st, follow D. st and make a left turn onto w broadway, another left onto e broadway where it would continue down broadway as far as needed. It could turn around, reverse direction, or even follow summer st. back to D st. If the track 61 dmu station were to be in front of the convention center there could be an indigo-green connection there. The logan connection would be solved when the red to blue connector is put in,NSRL, and a new aquarium station with commuter-blue line connection, seeing that orange and green already are connected to the blue line. Both this and the red line I showed would require new tunneling and Im not sure how this would be able to connect into the rest of the green line. The red line at least would essentially be the same line just moved over a few blocks.

 
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stick n move said:
Okay. So is there a real green line extension to southie proposal or is it just talk on here? Are there also any real SL under D proposals, I would be interested to read both.
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As far as I know there's not. But that doesn't mean we should ditch the most reasonable options for Seaport transportation to start waxing poetic about a Red Line bypass that will definitely never ever happen.

I've said this before, if we want our tinker toy amateur city planner transit proposals to be taken seriously, then we need to actually organize ourselves into an advocacy group, or work with existing ones to get these ideas attention in the media.
 
I get it, red line is a bad idea. My point I was making was there are proposals for all kinds of shit way off in the future, but there is nothing at all in the works for the seaport which the mayor and other important people have said needs to happen. Its just weird that nothing even far fetched is being tossed around here by anybody outside of this website.
 
stick n move said:
I get it, red line is a bad idea. My point I was making was there are proposals for all kinds of shit way off in the future, but there is nothing at all in the works for the seaport which the mayor and other important people have said needs to happen. Its just weird that nothing even far fetched is being tossed around here by anybody outside of this website.
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Other half-baked ideas get airings on Curbed, or UHub. We just don't promote any of our ideas. That's why we don't get any publicity.

The government has their heads too far up their asses to actually address "our crumbling infrastructure" on anything other than emergency stop-gaps, or individual spotlight projects. Long-term planning seems almost exclusively to be in the realm of advocacy groups.

I resignedly and ironically chuckle every time I see all of us cheer new housing activations in the city. Do public officials not realize what happens to a city that increases population and density without making simultaneous upgrades to transportation infrastructure? Gridlock and failure.
 
stick n move said:
I get it, red line is a bad idea. My point I was making was there are proposals for all kinds of shit way off in the future, but there is nothing at all in the works for the seaport which the mayor and other important people have said needs to happen. Its just weird that nothing even far fetched is being tossed around here by anybody outside of this website.
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Stick -- I'd wait until Jeff Immelt, Charlie and Marty have a chance for a proper sit down sometime in the immediate post July time frame

GE will bring the old heavy duty style of influence of a: Fidelity, Raytheon, John Hancock, DEC, Liberty Mutual, Gillette, etc. -- to the discussion of all matters that have a direct impact on GE

Except that as Marty and Charlie both have a personal commitment to making GE's HQ plan work -- Jeff's requests will be given a lot of weight

Hopefully, we will have a early head's-up" in the next couple of weeks as GE is scheduled to make some sort of pronouncement on February 18
 
stick n move said:
Okay. So is there a real green line extension to southie proposal or is it just talk on here? Are there also any real SL under D proposals, I would be interested to read both.

In the mean time I expanded on the green line idea. This would use the existing silver line tunnel, upon the exit would make a right turn onto D st, follow D. st and make a left turn onto w broadway, another left onto e broadway where it would continue down broadway as far as needed. It could turn around, reverse direction, or even follow summer st. back to D st. If the track 61 dmu station were to be in front of the convention center there could be an indigo-green connection there. The logan connection would be solved when the red to blue connector is put in,NSRL, and a new aquarium station with commuter-blue line connection, seeing that orange and green already are connected to the blue line. Both this and the red line I showed would require new tunneling and Im not sure how this would be able to connect into the rest of the green line. The red line at least would essentially be the same line just moved over a few blocks.

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If you want to resurrect the Broadway route (and it WAS a "Green Line" route before there was a Green Line), do it from the Tremont Street portal, where it originated from back in the day (although I am not sure how you get there from here now.)

Keep the transit way for Seaport and not Southie proper.

And my understanding is that a lot of Southie really does not want this kind of transit down Broadway.
 
We've hashed this out elsewhere as well, and I agree with Jeff. Southie residents won't want any rail up the gut of the neighborhood. Rail-in-road should be looked at more, and should be included in any feasibility studies - if only to absorb political ire - but it likely would be rejected for Southie.

Easiest incremental way to get GL to Southie would be to the transitway conversion to dual-mode; have GL trains peel to the south out of the portal and stop at Boston Design Center; either overbuild or track-in-pavement the new haul road they're building that will get semi-trucks off of 1st St.; GL trains share that restricted access road with trucks; terminal and only station in Southie proper, "City Point" north of E1st St but east of OSt. Then serve most of Southie with frequent key bus routes either up the gut on Broadway, or flanking the neighborhood on the north and south that gives more residents a <10min ride to either Andrew or City Point

Something like this (with the terminal perhaps a thousand feet west to avoid land-sharing/swapping issues with MassPort)

i5j2Jo6.png
 
BussesAin'tTrains said:
We've hashed this out elsewhere as well, and I agree with Jeff. Southie residents won't want any rail up the gut of the neighborhood. Rail-in-road should be looked at more, and should be included in any feasibility studies - if only to absorb political ire - but it likely would be rejected for Southie.

Easiest incremental way to get GL to Southie would be to the transitway conversion to dual-mode; have GL trains peel to the south out of the portal and stop at Boston Design Center; either overbuild or track-in-pavement the new haul road they're building that will get semi-trucks off of 1st St.; GL trains share that restricted access road with trucks; terminal and only station in Southie proper, "City Point" north of E1st St but east of OSt. Then serve most of Southie with frequent key bus routes either up the gut on Broadway, or flanking the neighborhood on the north and south that gives more residents a <10min ride to either Andrew or City Point

Something like this (with the terminal perhaps a thousand feet west to avoid land-sharing/swapping issues with MassPort)

i5j2Jo6.png
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It's so interesting this was brought up today. I just took the dog for a walk out to Castle Island yesterday before the huge snowstorm, and I was thinking of almost exactly this alignment or maybe up East Broadway. The Design and Innovation Building in the Marine Industrial Park seems to be getting some major tech. tenants and architecture firms. I think Autodesk has recently moved about 200 people from Waltham. So, I think this alignment makes sense.

I've been spending some time in Portland, Oregon recently and their Portland Streetcar is a good example of how transit in the street reservation is done right.

http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/
 
^I would love it if we got some new Green Lines that all terminated at major parks... You could get one to Franklin Park, another to City Point, maybe Arborway (as discussed in the CTP threads...)

But really, really really really, why is the state govt so insanely inept on transportation? If any region NEEDS a truly new transit solution it is without question the Seaport... Im as cynical as they come, but I just dont get why every time there's another press story about Seaport transportation it's some stupid panel that's going recaliber a traffic light or work more with private bus carriers... just asinine.
 
FK4 said:
^I would love it if we got some new Green Lines that all terminated at major parks... You could get one to Franklin Park, another to City Point, maybe Arborway (as discussed in the CTP threads...)

But really, really really really, why is the state govt so insanely inept on transportation? If any region NEEDS a truly new transit solution it is without question the Seaport... Im as cynical as they come, but I just dont get why every time there's another press story about Seaport transportation it's some stupid panel that's going recaliber a traffic light or work more with private bus carriers... just asinine.
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They're terrified of finding the money, and they're terrified of suburban voters who only think about their cars. It's really that simple. What we need to be doing is start pressuring the city so that they can start pressuring the state.
 
BussesAin'tTrains said:
They're terrified of finding the money, and they're terrified of suburban voters who only think about their cars. It's really that simple. What we need to be doing is start pressuring the city so that they can start pressuring the state.
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Busses -- Forget the Green Line -- its time to focus on making positive contributions by suggesting achievable, realistic improvements to the Silver Line
 
whighlander said:
Busses -- Forget the Green Line -- its time to focus on making positive contributions by suggesting achievable, realistic improvements to the Silver Line
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In the meantime, sure. Absolutely. I'm open to suggestions to make the Silver Line significantly improved. The only purpose to GL conversion is to connect the transitway to the broader system, which is the only way it will be a bigger success going forward. It's foolish to "forget" big improvements when going with incrementalist approaches. Always keep the bigger goal in mind and in advocacy.
 
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