South Station Tower | South Station Air Rights | Downtown

type001 said:
Not sure who you’re addressing or why. It’s the opposite actually. Someone subjectively didn’t like the floor and then told everyone to go out there and compare their apples to our oranges.
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You just made Bill Blass' point by completely mischaracterizing my points to 1) diminish me, 2) defend Boston.

I love Boston. In this case, Boston's train station is far from the best. It could have been so much better. I wish people here would put hometown pride aside and admit that. Openness to accepting constructive criticism is a good way get out of the echo chamber and improve things.
 
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I think the larger point is that the platform is one thing and the station/headhouse is another. There have been innumerable posts here with unanimous consensus that, at the very least, the station should be cleaned (the ceiling... woof). It's a beautiful building and hasn't been well-maintained in going on 30-plus years. The platform is pretty damn nice, as platforms go. I've been -- and frequently go to -- all the stations in NYC and elsewhere that you've cited. Their platforms are gross. The *stations* are nice.
 
chrisbrat said:
I think the larger point is that the platform is one thing and the station/headhouse is another. There have been innumerable posts here with unanimous consensus that, at the very least, the station should be cleaned (the ceiling... woof). It's a beautiful building and hasn't been well-maintained in going on 30-plus years. The platform is pretty damn nice, as platforms go. I've been -- and frequently go to -- all the stations in NYC and elsewhere that you've cited. Their platforms are gross. The *stations* are nice.
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Yes, and get rid of those food booths clogging up the passenger waiting area. I got off a train last week and had to work my way through the congestion just to get to the red line. There's plenty of room for food booths off to the side. Bostonians, please don't attack me for saying this, but Grand Central has their food booths below the main concourse; South Station already has a similar setup with the food courts on the side. They should stay on the side and keep the passenger waiting area free for waiting passengers.
 
I agree with some of the South Station criticism, but I feel like the grandeur of the arches makes up for any shortcomings on the platform side of South Station.

But the interior headhouse is inexplicably bad, and it's very concerning that improvements seemingly aren't happening anytime soon.
 
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SMCYB said:
You just made Bill Blass' point by completely mischaracterizing my points to 1) diminish me, 2) defend Boston.

I love Boston. In this case, Boston's train station is far from the best. It could have been so much better. I wish people here would put hometown pride aside and admit that. Openness to accepting constructive criticism is a good way get out of the echo chamber
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I promise to let you have the last word on this, but I will not accept what you wrote. I absolutely did not make his *point*, which wasn't even a relevant point. He was looking for anything tangential to write that.

You are upset because someone called you out on your comparison.

City Hall and The State Services buildings are offensively bad. We good now?
 
SMCYB said:
You just made Bill Blass' point by completely mischaracterizing my points to 1) diminish me, 2) defend Boston.

I love Boston. In this case, Boston's train station is far from the best. It could have been so much better. I wish people here would put hometown pride aside and admit that. Openness to accepting constructive criticism is a good way get out of the echo chamber and improve things.
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What I think I'm trying to say that we aren't comparing apples to apples. To put it into pictures, what I think you're comparing is this:
1000041311.jpg
the problem, as I see it, is that the arches aren't the same type of space as the other 3 pictures. They're not indoor waiting room space, but instead part of the platform area. They are an interstital space set between the concourse and the station platforms. Theres no seating, no bathrooms, no retail, its outdoors and exposed - but its a glorified pass through to get from the waiting room to the platforms and your train on the other side, and should, in essence, be thought of as a particularly robust platform canopy and entranceway. Its a colonnade and a train shed. If you have a problem with the flooring choice thats fair enough, but I'd point out that its an outdoor space in New England. Its going to get wet, cold and slippery, and here tile, terrazzo, etc is inappropriate for a space that doesn't have doors.

In terms of what was built, I'd say this is the fairer comparison, where yes, once you consider the arches you pass through I'd argue what Boston built compares favorably to NYP and GCT, if not quite to the standards of GC Madison.
1000041309.jpg


If we're talking concourses in this set of pictures I think everyone here would agree that South Station compares very poorly and desperately needs to be improved - but it wasn't part of the scope of this project and under separate and problematic management and responsibility. One station, multiple aspects - some new and good, some desperately in need of investment.
1000041307.jpg
 
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Stlin said:
What I think I'm trying to say that we aren't comparing apples to apples. To put it into pictures, what I think you're comparing is this:
View attachment 66249the problem, as I see it, is that the arches aren't the same type of space as the other 3 pictures. They're not indoor waiting room space, but instead part of the platform area. They are an interstital space set between the concourse and the station platforms. Theres no seating, no bathrooms, no retail, its outdoors and exposed - but its a glorified pass through to get from the waiting room to the platforms and your train on the other side, and should, in essence, be thought of as a particularly robust platform canopy and entranceway. Its a colonnade and a train shed. If you have a problem with the flooring choice thats fair enough, but I'd point out that its an outdoor space in New England. Its going to get wet, cold and slippery, and here tile, terrazzo, etc is inappropriate for a space that doesn't have doors.

In terms of what was built, I'd say this is the fairer comparison, where yes, once you consider the arches you pass through I'd argue what Boston built compares favorably to NYP and GCT, if not quite to the standards of GC Madison.
View attachment 66248

If we're talking concourses in this set of pictures I think everyone here would agree that South Station compares very poorly and desperately needs to be improved - but it wasn't part of the scope of this project and under separate and problematic management and responsibility. One station, multiple aspects - some new and good, some desperately in need of investment.
View attachment 66247
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That's fair. Thank you for being the first person here to actually have a conversation with me. That's what I'm here for; not to be told I need the last word or other childish things like that.

It's true that the domed area is an outdoor space, but one of my earlier points is that it didn't have to be so exposed to the elements if the designers had put some more thought into ventilating the diesel exhaust (over the tracks perhaps with ductwork or something), and closing off that rain gap over the headhouse that most people here seem to agree on.

The South Station project was a big opportunity. They technically did the job and what they did is "good enough." But I don't think good enough is enough. It could have been so much better. But that's why some architects are famous and some aren't.
 
SMCYB said:
That's fair. Thank you for being the first person here to actually have a conversation with me. That's what I'm here for; not to be told I need the last word or other childish things like that.

It's true that the domed area is an outdoor space, but one of my earlier points is that it didn't have to be so exposed to the elements if the designers had put some more thought into ventilating the diesel exhaust (over the tracks perhaps with ductwork or something), and closing off that rain gap over the headhouse that most people here seem to agree on.

The South Station project was a big opportunity. They technically did the job and what they did is "good enough." But I don't think good enough is enough. It could have been so much better. But that's why some architects are famous and some aren't.
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All fair points, but in this day and age, at the scale of major public works, some architects are famous because they were given a budget to make something worthy. This TOD project, 20-something years in the making, wasn't standing on the strongest of financials to make a really well designed public space (nor does it have the NYC-scale of investment backing), and our state government unfortunately really isn't concerned with funding public transit improvements because they can get their votes more easily elsewhere. Without money, we're stuck with what we have, famous or excellent architect (there's a difference) or otherwise.
 
RandomWalk said:
The Amtrak lounge is nice, but the rest of the South Station interior is a mess. It needs a ground up rehab that properly respects the head house.
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The saddest thing is we had a chance at it. The original lease that financed the current headhouse was for was a 35 year term that would have expired on Dec 31 2024 with 2 10 year options. Within 6 months of Baker taking office in 2015, in June 2016 Pollacks MassDOT reissued the lease for a new 99 year term to the same firm that had built the current concourse in 89, Beacon / EOP. A year later in 2017 EOP sells the lease to AAC, who leaves the station in its current state. If they simply hadn't done that, by now we would have a new S. Station operator.

I get that thst was the same timeframe they were finalizing the Hines deal, but yea... while a 99 year ground lease to Hines who are building a tower is appropriate, no sane landlord in their right mind should write something that long for an structure they share and intend to occupy. 20, 30 years in conjunction with a major investment sure, but without it? No one except an active saboteur is so asinine to set up a PPP like that.
 
If the lessee has a 99-year lease and no intention of refreshing the property, then it seems to me that any improvements will fall upon the lessor. Maybe that would be more palatable if a long-term plan to address the building's shortcomings was created. A bad lease doesn't get any better by letting the building fully depreciate.
 
They screwed up royally with the CVS. The (interior) balcony was enclosed and made into a run of the mill pharmacy.

It would a perfect location for a nice restaurant. A place to grab some food or a drink while waiting for a train, to meet someone, or people watch. I’m thinking something along the lines of the oyster bar at GCT.
 
I looked it up. It seems you need either first class ticket, sleeper car ticket, or top-level membership to access the lounge. Is that right? I used the waiting area at Moynihan in NY Penn, but it was just a seating area off to the side.
 
That's the scoop, yeah. That said, having never been there before, I just asked if I could check out the lounge -- I wasn't traveling at all that day -- and the person minding the entry was cool about it. Never hurts to ask. I've since been "legitimately" a few times when traveling Acela first class.
 
SMCYB said:
I looked it up. It seems you need either first class ticket, sleeper car ticket, or top-level membership to access the lounge. Is that right? I used the waiting area at Moynihan in NY Penn, but it was just a seating area off to the side.
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Its for 'select plus' and 'select executive' status but anyone can purchase a one time pass for $35 I believe. The space is barely used every time I visit and it makes for a great South Station experience so def recommend it.
 
SMCYB said:
I looked it up. It seems you need either first class ticket, sleeper car ticket, or top-level membership to access the lounge. Is that right? I used the waiting area at Moynihan in NY Penn, but it was just a seating area off to the side.
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There's a Metropolitan Lounge at Moynihan, too, distinct from the Amtrak seating area. It's in a mezzanine above the main floor, and is significantly nicer than the side area.
 
HenryAlan said:
There's a Metropolitan Lounge at Moynihan, too, distinct from the Amtrak seating area. It's in a mezzanine above the main floor, and is significantly nicer than the side area.
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And Philly, DC, Chicago, LA and Portland OR.
www.amtrak.com

Amtrak Station Lounges

Looking for a place to relax while you're on your journey? Stop in and visit one of our private lounges in select stations across the country.
www.amtrak.com www.amtrak.com
 
South Station falls short of the grandeur it could achieve, but a few strategic changes would make a world of difference:
  • Remove the central kiosks. They create unnecessary clutter and amplify the sense of claustrophobia.
  • Take down the oversized ad billboards. These block what little natural light the station has, making the interior feel even more closed in.
  • Brighten and soften the space. Warmer colors and gentler lighting—along the lines of the restored Denver Union Station—would transform the hall into a more inviting civic space.

The Terminal Bar at Denver Union Station.

https://savingplaces.org/stories/the-creative-and-beautiful-reuse-of-denver-union-station
 
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