State to take closer look at tolls on I-93

I would love to see numbers on that.

Best you could probably do is look at the % of each municipality within 128 that drives to work and assume that most of those people will be hopping on a major route for at least part of their commute.

Though I guess that doesn’t cover weekend usage. :unsure:

Another way to look at the question: if everything within 128 was tolled, how easy would it be for someone in Chelsea to avoid the toll vs someone in Dedham?
 
I would love to see numbers on that.
Also, I’m okay with tolls going to fix the respective tolled roads. It means we can steer previously highway targeted MassDOT money to transit instead of highways.

What, like the gas tax?
 
I haven't seen a study but aren't tolls considered to be really regressive? I suppose people could wave their tax return when going under the gantry but that's tough to do while driving.
 
I haven't seen a study but aren't tolls considered to be really regressive? I suppose people could wave their tax return when going under the gantry but that's tough to do while driving.
It’s a use tax - like a Charlie Card. But I’m sure a study from the Pioneer Institute exists for just this occasion.
 
Maybe. But the poster I was responding to was specifically trying to siphon money from “burbers”. Putting tolls on every road inside 128 will overwhelmingly hurt city-dwellers more so than suburbanites.
“Hurt” or “impact”? I live, work, and play inside 128, and I’m okay with charging anyone who feels it’s their God Given Right to pal round my neighborhood. Tolling the suburbanites who are so mad they got a ticket for parking in a Resident Only spot (after 8:00 PM, weekdays), when they were up from Milton or Raynham, bathing themselves in some Bud Light not only makes me grin, it makes me giddy. Charge all these people who feel they should have rights to occupy the streets I live on and pay for.

This will, quite literally, have no impact on this city-dweller. Except, to improve my quality of life.

edit: I can’t spell.
 
“Hurt” or “impact”? I live, work, and play inside 128, and I’m okay with charging anyone who feels it’s their God Given Right to pal round my neighborhood. Tolling the suburbanites who are so mad they got a ticket for parking in a Resident Only spot (after 8:00 PM, weekdays), when they were up from Milton or Raynham, bathing themselves in some Bud Light not only makes me grin, it makes me giddy. Charge all these people who feel they should have rights to occupy the streets I live on and pay for.

This will, quite literally, have no impact on this city-dweller. Except, to improve my quality of life.

I mean, you might have a point if the proposal is "tax the suburbanites". (I'll be clear, I don't actually know what the impacts of such a policy would look like, though if I take a data-free guess, I'd wager it might not be quite so awesome.) If it's "put usage taxes on all the inside-128 roads", that's going to cost a boatload in tolls for the city-dwellers, or, at least, the ones who drive and park in the Resident Only spots. Of course, while the "tax the suburbanites" idea is perhaps comparatively better policy, it's unlikely to win favor with all those suburban representatives on Beacon Hill, and seems kind of tailor-made to enrage exactly the kind of people who the politicians tend to (overly) listen to already.
 
Another way to look at the question: if everything within 128 was tolled, how easy would it be for someone in Chelsea to avoid the toll vs someone in Dedham?
This would also mean taking away the toll discounts that people in Chelsea and several neighborhoods in Boston have today. If you live in Chelsea the toll to drive over the Tobin is lower than the fare on the 111.
If we're going to have some new toll structure we have to rationalize the existing one first.
 
Maybe. But the poster I was responding to was specifically trying to siphon money from “burbers”. Putting tolls on every road inside 128 will overwhelmingly hurt city-dwellers more so than suburbanites.
Anecdotally, most people I know who live inside 128 and commute by car are reverse commuting to jobs on or outside 128. I think there would be a big backlash from city-dwellers too.
 
This will, quite literally, have no impact on this city-dweller. Except, to improve my quality of life.

But there are probably tons of people driving to your neighborhood from other urban neighborhoods within 128. People don’t just stay within a 5min drive of their house all the time.

And like 737900er said, plenty of people (myself included) reverse commute along a highway to places outside 128. There are some too who drive from one part of the city to another for work, be it downtown or Assembly or wherever. All those people are going to be paying your proposed toll practically everyday. The suburbanite from Milton who parks in your residential parking spot after 8pm on the first Friday of every month won’t be.
 
But there are probably tons of people driving to your neighborhood from other urban neighborhoods within 128. People don’t just stay within a 5min drive of their house all the time.

And like 737900er said, plenty of people (myself included) reverse commute along a highway to places outside 128. There are some too who drive from one part of the city to another for work, be it downtown or Assembly or wherever. All those people are going to be paying your proposed toll practically everyday. The suburbanite from Milton who parks in your residential parking spot after 8pm on the first Friday of every month won’t be.
Work where you live …or pay.
What we’ve been doing doesn’t work.
 
Decreasing the number of automobiles funneling into our city on a daily basis would be a good thing for the city as a whole. Charging a fee/toll to bring an automobile into an urban core has been demonstrated to have an effect on that negative action.

If you are in the category of people who would be charged a lot of money under such a plan (urbanite or suburbanite), then you are in the category of people whose transportation decisions are harming the city. I can imagine that's a hard pill to swallow.

Politically, it's hard to sell people on the idea that they need to change their behavior for the benefit of the world beyond themselves. We live in both a highly individualist and a coddled society, where bad actors rarely confront the indirect effects of their bad actions. For it work, there would need to be a collective belief that the toll money would actually be used to make transportation systems better, directly or indirectly.
 
If you are in the category of people who would be charged a lot of money under such a plan (urbanite or suburbanite), then you are in the category of people whose transportation decisions are harming the city. I can imagine that's a hard pill to swallow.

I agree that we need to price in the externalities of transportation decisions, but in order to get there it needs to be a legitimate choice for people.

With the state of the T, lack of affordable housing options, poor reputation of BPS (deserved or not), nonexistent overnight transit, job growth outside of traditional cores with good transit, etc. driving doesn't really seem like a choice for a lot of people -- it's their own only option. Putting tolls just covers up for the core policy failures that led to this situation in the first place.

If people want to live in New Hampshire and pay a toll to drive into Boston, that should be a choice. If someone lives in New Bedford because that's the only place they could afford a house and drives into Boston because SCR is slow, unreliable, and expensive that's different problems that tolling just covers up.

Politically, it's hard to sell people on the idea that they need to change their behavior for the benefit of the world beyond themselves. We live in both a highly individualist and a coddled society, where bad actors rarely confront the indirect effects of their bad actions.

This is a bit soapboxy, but I think part of the problem is a society that's made ownership of single-family real estate (which is highly individualist, as you say) one of the most important markers of success and a primary driver of wealth generation -- but has created a huge number of negative externalities.
 
Politically, it's hard to sell people on the idea that they need to change their behavior for the benefit of the world beyond themselves. We live in both a highly individualist and a coddled society, where bad actors rarely confront the indirect effects of their bad actions.

For myself and (I assume) a lot of other people as well, it’s not a matter of behavior or decisions: there really is just no alternative to driving. I work in an industrial park with no transit or housing for miles.

If I could take a bus from my house [or reasonably close] to work [or reasonable close], I’d be happy as a clam.

You can’t punish or demean people for not taking advantage of alternatives that don’t exist.
 
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For myself and (I assume) a lot of other people as well, it’s not a matter of behavior or decisions: there really is just no alternative to driving. I work in an industrial park with no transit or housing for miles.

If I could take a bus from my house [or reasonably close] to work [or reasonable close], I’d be happy as a clam.

You can’t punish or demean people for not taking advantage of alternatives that don’t exist.

Why did you clip the last sentence? I'll quote it here:

For it work, there would need to be a collective belief that the toll money would actually be used to make transportation systems better, directly or indirectly.

The point is to support and encourage alternatives. Without that, any urban toll plan is DOA, politically speaking.

EDITED TO ADD: What you call a punishment, I'd call a change in incentive. People drive because the alternatives are more expensive, less convenient, slower, less comfortable, non-existent, or some combination of those reasons. Those are the existing incentives that "punish" people who choose not to drive or can't drive. The incentives need to change to encourage a modal shift. That might feel like a punishment to those whose actions are being discouraged, but it's imperative to build a better world.

For example, if living in Boston and commuting to an industrial park becomes too expensive to justify, people's behaviors will shift. That could mean a change in residential location, it could mean a change in job, it could mean a relocation of the job-site. Follow the incentives and you'll understand the behavior, in the aggregate.
 
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EDITED TO ADD: What you call a punishment, I'd call a change in incentive. People drive because the alternatives are more expensive, less convenient, slower, less comfortable, non-existent, or some combination of those reasons. Those are the existing incentives that "punish" people who choose not to drive or can't drive. The incentives need to change to encourage a modal shift. That might feel like a punishment to those whose actions are being discouraged, but it's imperative to build a better world.

For example, if living in Boston and commuting to an industrial park becomes too expensive to justify, people's behaviors will shift. That could mean a change in residential location, it could mean a change in job, it could mean a relocation of the job-site. Follow the incentives and you'll understand the behavior, in the aggregate.

But that doesn't change the fact that what you call incentives aren't necessarily fungible behaviors for all involved. Changing residential location isn't necessarily a simple matter. Some locations are too expensive for many, some of them have lousy services, some of them have lousy schools. Changing jobs also isn't necessarily simple for a lot of people, and suggesting that people should just "get another job" as a justification for tolls may or may not be good policy, but it'd be ridiculously unpopular. Moreover, the idea that the jobs will necessarily move is also not necessarily likely to happen; they're not always location-agnostic anyway, and there'd be plenty of companies that wouldn't move.

It absolutely is a punishment if you start imposing tolls on people who aren't likely to be able (let alone willing) to immediately uproot/rework their lives in the hopes of future improvements. It's one thing to target things like tolls to contexts where there are viable, useful alternative modes, and to use those as part of a strategy for encouraging those and new alternatives. It's very different if you impose these widely, because that's when you run headlong into forcing people to make choices they don't want to make. It's not easy to decide to move from a chosen place to live, it's not easy to decide to change jobs, it's not easy for employers to just relocate, all of these things have costs, all of them have trade-offs, and if you just impose tolls by fiat, people aren't going to see that as an incentive to change, they're going to see it as an extra burden heaped on them. So, in real life, far from being an incentive towards better transportation, what you'd actually get from an overbroad policy (and I mean anything other than very, very targeted) is a whole host of angry, angry people who the politicians listen to. Telling people to eat their vegetables is a politically disastrous proposition, and while it's perfectly fine to lament that fact, we don't actually get to ignore it, because the drivers vote too.
 
Tolls can be regressive and unfairly burden low income people. With today's technology and electronic tolling, it would be easy enough to index tolls according to personal income. Tolls on every expressway inside 128, plus a few of the more major parkways (SFR, etc.), could (if allocated properly) provide funding for much needed transit improvements. Someone a few posts up stated that what we have now isn't working, and I don't see much Federal funding at all coming along for transit for decades to come. Tolling (indexed to personal income level) seems a sensible and fair way to raise revenue. It may also have the added bonus of decreasing traffic a bit.
 
But that doesn't change the fact that what you call incentives aren't necessarily fungible behaviors for all involved. Changing residential location isn't necessarily a simple matter. Some locations are too expensive for many, some of them have lousy services, some of them have lousy schools. Changing jobs also isn't necessarily simple for a lot of people, and suggesting that people should just "get another job" as a justification for tolls may or may not be good policy, but it'd be ridiculously unpopular. Moreover, the idea that the jobs will necessarily move is also not necessarily likely to happen; they're not always location-agnostic anyway, and there'd be plenty of companies that wouldn't move.

It absolutely is a punishment if you start imposing tolls on people who aren't likely to be able (let alone willing) to immediately uproot/rework their lives in the hopes of future improvements. It's one thing to target things like tolls to contexts where there are viable, useful alternative modes, and to use those as part of a strategy for encouraging those and new alternatives. It's very different if you impose these widely, because that's when you run headlong into forcing people to make choices they don't want to make. It's not easy to decide to move from a chosen place to live, it's not easy to decide to change jobs, it's not easy for employers to just relocate, all of these things have costs, all of them have trade-offs, and if you just impose tolls by fiat, people aren't going to see that as an incentive to change, they're going to see it as an extra burden heaped on them. So, in real life, far from being an incentive towards better transportation, what you'd actually get from an overbroad policy (and I mean anything other than very, very targeted) is a whole host of angry, angry people who the politicians listen to. Telling people to eat their vegetables is a politically disastrous proposition, and while it's perfectly fine to lament that fact, we don't actually get to ignore it, because the drivers vote too.

For it work, there would need to be a collective belief that the toll money would actually be used to make transportation systems better, directly or indirectly.
 
Tolls can be regressive and unfairly burden low income people. With today's technology and electronic tolling, it would be easy enough to index tolls according to personal income. Tolls on every expressway inside 128, plus a few of the more major parkways (SFR, etc.), could (if allocated properly) provide funding for much needed transit improvements. Someone a few posts up stated that what we have now isn't working, and I don't see much Federal funding at all coming along for transit for decades to come. Tolling (indexed to personal income level) seems a sensible and fair way to raise revenue. It may also have the added bonus of decreasing traffic a bit.

HARD disagree. The wealthiest person I know is destitute in the eyes of the IRS. Mark Zuckerburg has an on-paper salary of just $1. Elon Musk lost far more money than he made last year.

While the technology you are describing may exist, our financial system is very far from any kind of justice of the form you describe.
 
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HARD disagree. The wealthiest person I know is destitute in the eyes of the IRS. Mark Zuckerburg has an on-paper salary of just $1. Elon Musk lost far more money than he made last year.

While the technology you are describing may exist, our financial system is very far from any kind of justice of the form you describe.
You're right. The very wealthy getting off with minimal income tax would have to be factored in. Am alternative to Federal income tax amounts would need to be used to guage income level.
 

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