"This tunnel will be a bargain" -- Big Dig Bashin'

Regarding the initial post to this thread, the light issue (you can see all the plastic ties in there, looks like a PITA to put those on.) But I am extremely glad to see LED lights as an option for replacement lights. I have also heard street lights and parking lights also using LED lighting. This is a great move as the long term cost and maintenance is reduced greatly, and it is much better for energy saving, money saving, and more environmentally friendly.

It is sad though that the problems continue to exist.
 
Bing, bing, bing. We have a winner. First swear word on ArchBoston.
 
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Urb -- people always wonder why you come out into the sunshine when you enter the I-90 tunnel from the Pike enroute to Logan -- real basic hydraulics

If one of the tunnels floods -- the open hole keeps syphoning from carrying water up over the top and then down again to flood everything. That's also why the Red Line had some gates put in to isolate the section passing through the Fort Point Chanel and under the immersed tube tunnels for I-90 that were then towed into place and sunk onto the 100+ support piers. if the I-90 tunnel had missed and broken the Red Line the flooding would have been confined.

I think the most servious threat to the T system would be a breach of the Blue Line trans-harbor Tunnel. That breach would flood Aquarium, State, Government Center Blue Line platforms and I suspect that State would couple the flood into the Orange Line. If that part of the scenario is valid then you'd lose Haymarket, DTX and Chinatown on the Orange. The big question is what happens to the Red Line at DTX -- over flow (not syphoning as everything is open to the air) could then flood South Station, the Silver Line Tunnel to Courthouse and possibly Park Street. A lot of buildings are connected to the T through entrances or just emergency passages -- it would be an interesting project for some student interested in infrastructure and modeling -- probably get a grant from DHS

Due to elevation, I don't think State would flood. It may come close, but not enough. But again, if there's any tied emergency egresses or utilities between Aquarium and the CAT, then it'll just find another way into the system.
 
and 3) can anyone say with confidence that the contractor corruption with the ceiling plate epoxy glue was only limited to the Pike tunnel?

Yes. Tip O'Neill ceiling panels are steel-to-steel positive connection. When they poured the ceiling for that tunnel they were smart enough to cast angle iron into the concrete. No epoxy required.
 
Urb -- people always wonder why you come out into the sunshine when you enter the I-90 tunnel from the Pike enroute to Logan -- real basic hydraulics

I don't think so Whig. That's where the Core Block is going (i.e., it's getting covered up anyway). I thought they didn't cover that up because it was the main access for the connection between the Fort Point Channel tunnel and the Ted Williams tunnel. The plan being to sell air rights there after the project was complete and let someone else cover it up.
 
I don't think so Whig. That's where the Core Block is going (i.e., it's getting covered up anyway). I thought they didn't cover that up because it was the main access for the connection between the Fort Point Channel tunnel and the Ted Williams tunnel. The plan being to sell air rights there after the project was complete and let someone else cover it up.

...right after they finish building all those grand Meninotowers on the Back Bay Pike air rights parcels. Any day now. :rolleyes:
 
I don't think so Whig. That's where the Core Block is going (i.e., it's getting covered up anyway). I thought they didn't cover that up because it was the main access for the connection between the Fort Point Channel tunnel and the Ted Williams tunnel. The plan being to sell air rights there after the project was complete and let someone else cover it up.

AmFolk -- The key point is not that it is uncovered -- but that its nearly at the surface -- you go down from the Pike through the S. Boston & Airport Exit to cross the Fort Point Chanel then come up in the SPID before decending under the harbor in the TED

If a ship was to strike and rupture the TED the water would only flood up to sea level as there can be no vacuum and hence no syphon. If the tunnel was closed in at the SPID then water could syphon into the tunnel under the Fort Point Chanel and possibly the O'Neil as well. The same kind of break in the underground connection to the O'Neil Tunnel exists with the ramps coming and going to the Callahan and Sumner Tunnels.
 
AmFolk -- The key point is not that it is uncovered -- but that its nearly at the surface -- you go down from the Pike through the S. Boston & Airport Exit to cross the Fort Point Chanel then come up in the SPID before decending under the harbor in the TED

If a ship was to strike and rupture the TED the water would only flood up to sea level as there can be no vacuum and hence no syphon. If the tunnel was closed in at the SPID then water could syphon into the tunnel under the Fort Point Chanel and possibly the O'Neil as well. The same kind of break in the underground connection to the O'Neil Tunnel exists with the ramps coming and going to the Callahan and Sumner Tunnels.

I don't understand what you mean by a "break". There's ramps which stay below sea level between the Sum/Cal+CAT and the CAT+Ted.
 
Not if they keep up with maintenance and mitigate at the source. The tunnels that are having the engineering (as opposed to contractor corruption) problems are the Pike tunnel and single-layered slurry wall main tunnel where the construction methods were never before used on any major civil engineering project. They did unlayered slurry walls because it was the only way to cram an extra lane of traffic and turnouts on the same footprint as the old Artery, and they had to do the ground freeze to jack the surface while navigating around such a complicated maze of tunnels. They knew they were going to have groundwater seepage and thawing issues from Day 1. Where it's gone awry is that the contractors were lackadaisical while they had the ground torn open about documenting subsurface conditions, and of course when they were doing finishing work on the backside of the project they were cutting corners left and right oversight-free. So the scope of the problem became a big fucking surprise.


The leakage in the main tunnel is more vexing because 1) they're still in repressing info mode and continually underquote to the public exactly how many gallons are spilling from how many places; 2) this whole things crashing from the ceiling and KILLING PEOPLE risk that we likewise aren't getting straight answers on, and 3) can anyone say with confidence that the contractor corruption with the ceiling plate epoxy glue was only limited to the Pike tunnel? And in each case you can clearly see that it's the public trust issues that are most problematic. Tunnels through the water table leak. And will leak unevenly. The engineering task is to mitigate it to a controlled minimum and not get nasty surprises where gushers open up where there were none before. And do it before it hits deferred maintenance territory like the Red Line Alewife extension where they just let it leak like a sieve for 25 years before doing anything. These are patchable leaks. If they do due diligence on the discovery phase, stay on top of the patches, and even it out to a trickle instead of widespread gushers like this scary situation...then the tunnel is so extremely overbuilt and designed to handle a reasonable leak load that it'll last a hundred years under persistent (but manageable) seepage. As for the ceiling, that's the lowest leak risk, but it obviously ain't helped by the influx of salt from the gushers on the side walls. Fix the side walls and be GODDAMN SURE that epoxy is safe and ceiling mounts like the lights are safe and that problem drops below any sort of trace-effect threshold.

General competence can manage that. We haven't had general competence managing this project, and there's little confidence that's going to start anytime soon.

Several Buildings bordering or within a couple blocks of big dig used slurry wall construction AND had/have water problems (during heavy rain especially when combined with high tide). So why the hell was it a big surprise the tunnell leaked and why wouldnt a few million have been put aside to fix the leaks when the project was planned(haha).

As said above they need to keep on top of these leaks if not its going to cost huge $$ at some point.
 
There's currently an 'electrical fixture' hanging from the ceiling of the Tip O'Neil. Note, this is not related to the light fixtures which were falling and then recently fixed.

http://twitpic.com/ajc8qw
 
Just wanted to point out that this ended up being a sign that was hit by a too-tall truck, not a structural/construction defect.
 
Aren't there multiple "overheight" warning sensors and alerts before entering the tunnel? ie: chains hanging from a arching pole and motion sensors x feet above the road which trigger a sign to warn the truck?
 
Aren't there multiple "overheight" warning sensors and alerts before entering the tunnel? ie: chains hanging from a arching pole and motion sensors x feet above the road which trigger a sign to warn the truck?

Yeah, they have those on Storrow and Mem. Drive too. Doesn't stop a truck from smacking an overpass once every other week. Drivers are stupid.
 
I have seen gasoline tankers in the tunnel before-- the rules are a joke and aren't enforced.

I have driven 80+ on every highway in MA inside 495 without so much as getting pulled over (I drove 25,000 miles a year) and often 85 isn't fast enough in the left lane of 495.
 
Route 1 between 128 and Boston? (between 10pm and 4am doesn't count!)

Probably a sustained 65-70 in the left lane--

I used to work as a DSD retail manager (I had about 30 employees in about 100 stores a day from Athol to Newburyport to Boston) for a CPG company. Depending on my plans for the day I was driving against the flow of traffic every morning out of the city at about 7 or 730 on Route 1, 1A, 2, 3, 93, 90, or occasionally 128, but since traffic is bad at both directions in the morning I tried to stay on radials.

When I lived in NH as a sales rep before I had my own territory I regularly drove from Concord (NH) to Middleton/Rowley and then would have dinner with a girl in the city before going back up north. I put 35,000 miles on my company car in about 9 months, then my next car I did about 20,000 in 5 before I moved to Arkansas for another promotion. I've had that car since may of 2011 and it's currently got about 45,000 miles on it.
 
Many of the responses in this thread as far as Big Dig tunnels are right on the money. The engineering was largely sound, and the problems could have been easily predicted and mitigated (epoxy issue excepted). The problem was solely with oversight and maintenance, and was the direct result of giving oversight to the Turnpike Authority.

The Turnpike Authority was run by, staffed by, and overseen by political hacks. This was caused by two main issues made inevitable by its governance structure.

The first was a lack of state oversight. The "independent" governance structure created a fiefdom of political appointees with insufficient political accountability. This led to it becoming a patronage dumping ground with underqualified, corrupt, and/or incompetent managers and employees.

The second issue was a lack of federal oversight. State Highway Departments have strict, strong oversight and project management from the Federal Highway Administration. Federal legislation is designed to govern State DOTs/Highway Departments - one per state - which regulate road and highway construction in the state. Independent toll authorities basically fall into a strange loophole of insufficient federal authority (and, probably, a lack of desire on the part of FHWA) to oversee them, and they are exempt from a lot of rules.

Note for example the "Citizens Bank Fast Lane"/EZ Pass change once the Turnpike Authority was eliminated. That was a safety issue. Corporate sponsorship is prohibited from highway signs ("Adopt a Highway" signs excepted). It creates confusion among drivers ("does my EZ Pass work here?") which causes accidents.

You may also remember years ago that the Pike used yellow speed limit signs at toll booths, which are advisory and not enforceable. When the media inquired, it had to be referred to the Pike Authority's General Counsel to research the issue. Any competent traffic engineer at a State DOT would know that, but no one at the Pike had a clue.

I have seen gasoline tankers in the tunnel before-- the rules are a joke and aren't enforced.

I have driven 80+ on every highway in MA inside 495 without so much as getting pulled over (I drove 25,000 miles a year) and often 85 isn't fast enough in the left lane of 495.

I agree on the gas tanker issue - that's bad and more enforcement is needed.

The speed issue however is a problem with the rules themselves, and a lack of public understanding of traffic engineering, not with enforcement.

Enforcement only affects average speeds literally during the time and place an officer is visible to a motorist and is conducting traffic enforcement. Speed limits don't affect average speeds at all, but, if set properly, can promote safety by decreasing speed differentials (people going fast slow down a bit, people going slow speed up a bit).

Speed limits are supposed to be set based on prevailing traffic speeds. Due to political reasons and simple inertia, major highways in Massachusetts have not been updated since the NMSL was repealed. The proper limit on Route 128 on the interstate-grade portions would be 70-75 if set properly. More rural roads such as 495 would be 80-85 or more.

The highway department has the authority to do this without legislative approval. Its engineers all know current highway limits are dangerous. Lots of their internal memorandums to higher-up officials basically say "I have no idea why we're posting the limit this low." It's just politics and inertia.
 
Speed limits are supposed to be set based on prevailing traffic speeds. Due to political reasons and simple inertia, major highways in Massachusetts have not been updated since the NMSL was repealed. The proper limit on Route 128 on the interstate-grade portions would be 70-75 if set properly. More rural roads such as 495 would be 80-85 or more.

Absolutely not. Speed limits are supposed to be set based on the design standards by which the road was built, as well as the safety and performance standards of the cars driving on the road. "Prevailing speeds" have nothing to do with it, nor should they if you're going to be setting limits at all.

I won't deny that politics and inertia play into it, but it's been conclusively proven that cars are less efficient and less safe once you pass about 60mph. I believe the banked curves and such on roads like 128 were designed up to 80 or 90mph, but I'm not sure about that.

What you're describing is the theory behind the autobahn - that people will know how fast it's safe to go instinctively and drive more attentively as a result. It works fine in Germany, and is seen as a reasonable model, but it definitely is not how it's done here.
 
Absolutely not. Speed limits are supposed to be set based on the design standards by which the road was built, as well as the safety and performance standards of the cars driving on the road. "Prevailing speeds" have nothing to do with it, nor should they if you're going to be setting limits at all.

I won't deny that politics and inertia play into it, but it's been conclusively proven that cars are less efficient and less safe once you pass about 60mph. I believe the banked curves and such on roads like 128 were designed up to 80 or 90mph, but I'm not sure about that.

What you're describing is the theory behind the autobahn - that people will know how fast it's safe to go instinctively and drive more attentively as a result. It works fine in Germany, and is seen as a reasonable model, but it definitely is not how it's done here.

Cars do become less efficient, but not less safe. But limits don't change average speeds, so it's not relevant either way. I'm not saying faster is safer. I'm saying we live in the real world. You have to look at the effect that speed limits have on real-world driver behavior, not the effect if we lived in a world where everyone complied with them.

What I'm saying might seem counterintuitive, but the consensus among engineering professionals here is as strong as it gets in a profession. In fact, it's required by federal and state law. The rule is 85th percentile. You find out what speed 85 percent of traffic travels at or below, round to the nearest 5 mph, and that's the limit.

"Design speed" is essentially a warranty that says "every single part of this road is guaranteed to be safe to travel at this speed." It has little to do with a safe and enforceable limit.

Sources:

Michigan State Police:

"Posting speed limits lower than the 85th percentile speed does not result in voluntary motorist compliance with the posted speed limit unless there is strict, continuous and visible enforcement. Increased enforcement is effective only at the immediate time and in the area where the police officer is present. The availability of police officers is limited and their services must be shared with other police responsibilities. Since those lower speed limits cannot be properly enforced, they will be consistently violated and will breed disregard for speed limits in general."

Federal Highway Administration:

The primary conclusion of this research is that the majority of motorist on the nonlimited access rural and urban highways examined in this study did not decrease or increase their speed as a result of either lowering or raising the posted speed limit by 4, 10, or 15 mi/h (8, 16, or 24 km/h). In other words, this nationwide study confirms the results of numerous other observational studies which found that the majority or motorist do not alter their speed to conform to speed limits they perceive as unreasonable for prevailing conditions.

The data clearly show that lowering posted speed limits did not reduce vehicle speeds or accidents. Also, lowering speed limits well below the 86th percentile speed did not increase speeds and accidents. Conversely, raising the posted speed limits did not increase speeds and accidents. The majority of motorist did not drive 5 to 10 mi/h (8 to 16 km/h) above the posted speed limit when speed limits were raised, nor did they reduce their speed by 5 or 10 mi/h (8 to 16 km/h) when speed limits were lowered.

Because there were few changes in the speed distribution, it is not surprising that the overall effects of speed limit changes on accidents were minor. It is interesting to note that compliance decreased when speed limits were lowered and accidents tended to increase. Conversely, when compliance improved after speed limits are raised, accidents tended to decrease.

MassDOT:

A prerequisite to establishing speed regulations and posting speed limits is a comprehensive engineering study at each location where speed control is contemplated. The purpose of the study is to establish a speed limit that is safe, reasonable and self-enforcing. The most important step is measuring the prevailing speeds of motorists on a particular section of a roadway under ideal conditions. The speed at or below which 85 percent of the motorists travel is the principle value used for establishing speed control. This is commonly referred to as the 85th percentile speed. This method is based on numerous studies which indicate that the majority of motorists are prudent and capable of selecting safe speeds. The 85th percentile speed is the national standard for establishing safe speed limits
 

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