UPenn study on MBTA

Awesome. That's most certainly $310 million dollars that could not possibly have gone to any better use then allowing .0001% of riders to not experience the inconvenience of having to be treated slightly different from everyone else.
 
DudeUrSistersHot said:
Awesome. That's most certainly $310 million dollars that could not possibly have gone to any better use then allowing .0001% of riders to not experience the inconvenience of having to be treated slightly different from everyone else.
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You're hitting the nail right on the head there. For 310 million they can hire private drivers to pick up/drop off the disabled for years to come. Whereas now, the money will be blown mostly on consultation. These "studies" are just a scam for contractors, consultants and attorneys to make money.
 
DudeUrSistersHot said:
Awesome. That's most certainly $310 million dollars that could not possibly have gone to any better use then allowing .0001% of riders to not experience the inconvenience of having to be treated slightly different from everyone else.
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Exactly! Where are the service improvements? The T is a pathetic joke. Hundreds of millions so a tiny fraction of the populous wont be inconvenienced. Great! How about updating a hundred year old infrastructure so it doest take an hour to travel 3 miles to work every morning. How about expanding coverage to keep up with population trends? The whole goddam system is so out-of-date and over-capacity its a miracle it even runs.
 
Well, the $310M is largely window-dressing, since most of the money had been committed already. The station refurbishments that come with ADA were needed anyway, and the elevators aren't the main expense in any case.

As for population trends, if the overall trend is the move out to the suburbs, the T can't do much to expand service there: it's not dense enough to make it cost-effective. We'll have to wait till the suburbanites suffocate in their own fumes.

No, the T should put a concerted effort into dense development around the stations and improving the service in the city (Somerville, urban ring subway).

justin
 
For 310 million they can hire private drivers to pick up/drop off the disabled for years to come.
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HAHA! Good point! And for 1 million per year, I will personally go around and do that for the next 310 years! Hell, for 1/4 of a million per year (250,000), I would do it for 1240 years!
 
That is a lot of money, and I feel just as strongly as everyone else that I would've liked to see it put to improving service, but we're talking human rights issues here. The MBTA did the right thing by making sure the disabled could use the T, even tough I doubt they wanted to. Everyone would be up in arms if the MBTA wasn't letting Koreans, for example, ride mass transit. People would say that is racist, unfair, and simply mean. This is the same situation. By not having ADA standard stations, the MBTA was, purposefully or not, singling out a minority of the population and not allowing them to ride the T. So what if it's .001% of people? They have just as much right as others to use mass transit. It's not like it's their fault that they're disabled. We have to remember that even tough they may be missing a couple of limbs here and there, they are people too.
I don't know if the way the MBTA handled this situation was the best way (maybe on-call private drivers really would have been better), but it is their duty as an organization that serves the public to include any and all races, classes, groups, etc. in its efforts to get people around.
 
making the Charles/MGH station accessible is way overdue. This benefits lots of people, not just 'cripples' . (a term best avoided, by the way)
 
lexicon506 said:
That is a lot of money, and I feel just as strongly as everyone else that I would've liked to see it put to improving service, but we're talking human rights issues here. The MBTA did the right thing by making sure the disabled could use the T, even tough I doubt they wanted to. Everyone would be up in arms if the MBTA wasn't letting Koreans, for example, ride mass transit. People would say that is racist, unfair, and simply mean. This is the same situation. By not having ADA standard stations, the MBTA was, purposefully or not, singling out a minority of the population and not allowing them to ride the T. So what if it's .001% of people? They have just as much right as others to use mass transit. It's not like it's their fault that they're disabled. We have to remember that even tough they may be missing a couple of limbs here and there, they are people too.
I don't know if the way the MBTA handled this situation was the best way (maybe on-call private drivers really would have been better), but it is their duty as an organization that serves the public to include any and all races, classes, groups, etc. in its efforts to get people around.
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Koreans don't require large fractions of a BILLION dollars worth of infrastructure investment to access mass transit. And no, the handicapped simply DON'T have as much right as everyone else to access it. They are handicapped. Handicapped people are different from other people and that fact needs to be recognized. They can't walk and therefore they can't do the same things that walking people can do. This fact needs to be accepted.
 
DudeUrSistersHot said:
lexicon506 said:
That is a lot of money, and I feel just as strongly as everyone else that I would've liked to see it put to improving service, but we're talking human rights issues here. The MBTA did the right thing by making sure the disabled could use the T, even tough I doubt they wanted to. Everyone would be up in arms if the MBTA wasn't letting Koreans, for example, ride mass transit. People would say that is racist, unfair, and simply mean. This is the same situation. By not having ADA standard stations, the MBTA was, purposefully or not, singling out a minority of the population and not allowing them to ride the T. So what if it's .001% of people? They have just as much right as others to use mass transit. It's not like it's their fault that they're disabled. We have to remember that even tough they may be missing a couple of limbs here and there, they are people too.
I don't know if the way the MBTA handled this situation was the best way (maybe on-call private drivers really would have been better), but it is their duty as an organization that serves the public to include any and all races, classes, groups, etc. in its efforts to get people around.
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Koreans don't require large fractions of a BILLION dollars worth of infrastructure investment to access mass transit. And no, the handicapped simply DON'T have as much right as everyone else to access it. They are handicapped. Handicapped people are different from other people and that fact needs to be recognized. They can't walk and therefore they can't do the same things that walking people can do. This fact needs to be accepted.
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In all seriousness dude, our prior disagreements aside, handicapped people have every right that you or I would have to ride public transportation, at least that's what the LAW says. The Americans with disabilities act states that private organizations must make reasonable accommodations for people with disabilities to benefit from their services, as long as they are not exclusive organizations where membership is voted upon (like a country club or something). the key word here is "reasonable" meaning a billion dollars would not be reasonable for a private enterprise to spend. But it is a different story with the public...like it or not, the law states that we all have the same rights to use public facilities and services, no matter how much it costs to enable this. end of story.
 
I almost agree with you on this one, or should I say I am attempted to agree with you on this one, but if you consider how much we all benefit from making sure that not even 0.01% of our population is discriminated against, then it becomes worth it. suppose they had a law prohibiting high school aged kids who knew everything from driving cars...then what would you do, you can't help being egocentric, its controlled by developmental neurons in your brain.
 
Accessibility improvements aren't just for 'handicapped' people. They're also for you with a stroller, you with a shopping cart, you with a bicycle, you with suitcases going to the airport, you with a broken leg and crutches, you when you just don't want to climb 35 steps at Charles station ....
 
Ron Newman said:
Accessibility improvements aren't just for 'handicapped' people. They're also for you with a stroller, you with a shopping cart, you with a bicycle, you with suitcases going to the airport, you with a broken leg and crutches, you when you just don't want to climb 35 steps at Charles station ....
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If you have a stroller- Get some help carrying the stroller up/down stairs with some MBTA worker

If you have a Bicyle- You shouldn't be on the T anyway. They don't allow bikes on the Green line at least.

If you have suitcases going to the airport - If you have more than one suitcase take a cab. Even with all the escalators it's still tough to carry heavy bags around. I'm a big individual and I have trouble doing so, let alone a smaller guy or a woman.

If you have a shopping cart- Do they even allow shopping carts out of the supermarkets these days? Unless you have one of those pull carts escalators in place go far and above any help you'd ever need.

If you have a broken leg- Find another means of transportation for god's sake you cheap bastard. Even if you're "poor" and can't afford it what are you doing with a broken leg anyway? Get some help from an mbta worker. That's what they're paid for.
 
I was referring to personally-owned fold-up shopping carts, not the kind from the supermarket (which definitely should not be taken off supermarket property). Yes, escalators are good for shopping carts, as well as for most of the other situations I listed. The point of the accessibility initiative is to make sure they are at the stations where they are needed (most notably Charles) and to make sure they work reliably.
 
bosdevelopment said:
Ron Newman said:
Accessibility improvements aren't just for 'handicapped' people. They're also for you with a stroller, you with a shopping cart, you with a bicycle, you with suitcases going to the airport, you with a broken leg and crutches, you when you just don't want to climb 35 steps at Charles station ....
Click to expand...

If you have a stroller- Get some help carrying the stroller up/down stairs with some MBTA worker

If you have a Bicyle- You shouldn't be on the T anyway. They don't allow bikes on the Green line at least.

If you have suitcases going to the airport - If you have more than one suitcase take a cab. Even with all the escalators it's still tough to carry heavy bags around. I'm a big individual and I have trouble doing so, let alone a smaller guy or a woman.

If you have a shopping cart- Do they even allow shopping carts out of the supermarkets these days? Unless you have one of those pull carts escalators in place go far and above any help you'd ever need.

If you have a broken leg- Find another means of transportation for god's sake you cheap bastard. Even if you're "poor" and can't afford it what are you doing with a broken leg anyway? Get some help from an mbta worker. That's what they're paid for.
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also good points.
 
bosdevelopment said:
Ron Newman said:
Accessibility improvements aren't just for 'handicapped' people. They're also for you with a stroller, you with a shopping cart, you with a bicycle, you with suitcases going to the airport, you with a broken leg and crutches, you when you just don't want to climb 35 steps at Charles station ....
Click to expand...

If you have a stroller- Get some help carrying the stroller up/down stairs with some MBTA worker

If you have a Bicyle- You shouldn't be on the T anyway. They don't allow bikes on the Green line at least.

If you have suitcases going to the airport - If you have more than one suitcase take a cab. Even with all the escalators it's still tough to carry heavy bags around. I'm a big individual and I have trouble doing so, let alone a smaller guy or a woman.

If you have a shopping cart- Do they even allow shopping carts out of the supermarkets these days? Unless you have one of those pull carts escalators in place go far and above any help you'd ever need.

If you have a broken leg- Find another means of transportation for god's sake you cheap bastard. Even if you're "poor" and can't afford it what are you doing with a broken leg anyway? Get some help from an mbta worker. That's what they're paid for.
Click to expand...
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you're the man.

Also, I'd be willing to bet a significant amount of money that the ADA has had a significant effect on pushing up obesity rates in this country. Lazy people getting on the escalator and just standing there, or even getting into the elevator out of nothing but laziness. I know that personally, if there are both stairs and an esclator, I always take the stairs.
 
^^ You just lost. Too bad you didn't actually put your money where your mouth is. What you were really doing was dissing the ADA cause you are conservative chucky.

The single most important underlying factor to the obesity epedemic is education. the greatest percentage of obesity is found amongst the uneducated. Why? these people have to work harder and longer to survive, which leaves less time for them to focus on their health, and prohibits them from buying expensive healthy foods (lean cuts of beef for example). There is a correlation between the price and fat percentage of McDonalds dollar-menu items, for example. Fat foods sell for less. ho hos and twinkies can go two for a quarter in some stores. there is like a thousand calories in each i bet.

If you really want to blame someone for obesity, blame the people and politicians who lead the rich to become richer and the poor to become poorer every year. Because there is a correlation between income and education, and therefore between income and obesity. the more you make, the more likely you are to attend a better public school growing up or even to attend a private school...and therefore the more likely you are to learn about proper nutrition, and the more likely you are to have more liesure time to exercise and eat right as an adult (because your job is more likely to be of professional status). these things are all inter-related, and believe me the ADA has nothing to do with obesity.
 
I shudder to align myself with the Kindergarten Republicans here, but c'mon. A healthy diet can be had without much money (fruit and veggies at closing time at Haymarket, e.g.) The root cause of obesity is ignorance, and that can't exactly be blamed on politicians only, if at all. Surely people who don't avail themselves of all the free info available on line, in public libraries, etc., bear at least a part of the responsability. Obesity, which is a result of wrong personal choices, will not be helped by infantilizing the poor as the Birkesntock brigade is want to.

As for blaming ADA for obesity, that's bollocks too. Try the fact that in most of this wretched country walking will simply not get you anywhere.

In general, ADA is just a reflection of prevailing, and changing, social standards. Nobody builds subways without elevators anymore, just like nobody builds them with wooden cars and poor lighting. Is that a good thing or bad? I can't answer that with a yes or no, but I will say this: there is no way that a subway system like NYC's would be built today: bare-bones stations, but with local/express service and great geographic reach. Since the growth of NYC was largely shaped and enabled by the subway, there is no way a city could develop like that today. The archetypical city produced with today's tastes is LA; guess which I prefer.

justin
 
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