Crazy Transit Pitches

[KCasiglio]

I’m guessing that light rail can accelerate faster but maybe not run as fast in between stations vs commuter rail?

My understanding based off of similar conversations that have been had about replacing CR service to Needham with a green line branch is that there is a speed tradeoff that is supposed to be made up for with improved frequency. 4 trains per hour vs 10. In the case of Waltham, you're not really eliminating the CR option, you're just shifting it north to the Mass Central RoW.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

In fantasy mode where you actually did run GLX to 128, tho, would this offer a reasonable commuter time to get downtown? I’m guessing that light rail can accelerate faster but maybe not run as fast in between stations vs commuter rail? What about compared to when the Fitchburg line gets electrification?

It depends on how many intermediate stations there are. TransitMatters, for instance, specced adding four of them to Urban Rail: Brickbottom, Union Square, Alewife, and Warrendale. That's going to keep top speeds way down on Urban Rail so the acceleration advantage of LRV's starts to take over at those kinds of densities. And there's more possible infills still because it's a fairly dense corridor. Ultimately what will make light rail slightly slower on the clock is that you'd lean much heavier on infills to get LRT-like stop spacing. Done with the same number of stations TransitMatters specced you'd probably be making equal or better time, but if it's going to be true Green Line you'd probably add a few more on top of that. It has the upside of tapping a much broader audience with the denser stop selection at much higher frequencies, so in the end you come out way ahead. Like anything, it's a balance. But I think here you go straight at the density and don't fret too much about the comparative run times.

For reference, in 2020 I diagrammed out a GLX-Waltham layout. Note how many new intermediates there are compared to Commuter Rail.


EDIT: Also, what @KCasiglio said...Purple Line isn't going away, it's just changing to a Porter-128 express and dramatically speeding up travel times to the past-128 stops on the Fitchburg. Alignment misses Waltham Center, but you can backtrack from the 128 superstation at good-enough time if seconds on the clock truly matter.

 

[Riverside]

Also keep in mind that the nearby Riverside Branch does just fine, at a similar distance, and into an even less dense (less walkable) neighborhood. In a world where Auburndale is a viable alternative with frequent service, perhaps that would change. But the D currently runs Riverside <> Kenmore in about 31 min, averaging 17.4 mph; at those speeds, Waltham <> North Station takes 33 minutes, which seems pretty reasonable to me, especially at rapid transit frequencies and eliminating a transfer at North Station.

 

[FK4]

Interesting. I somehow thought Waltham was more than that. So yeah, half an hour-ish seems very reasonable for Waltham. And since F'burg is such a long line, seems like a benefit to shave off a few stops in the burbs, and have it operate as a 128-Porter-Boston shuttle once you're inside 128.

 

[TheRatmeister]

If we're doing capital projects to serve Waltham though, I don't think GL from Union Sq is the best way to do that. I'm again going to point to the Aqua Line, bringing rapid transit frequencies and capacity not only to Waltham but also to Watertown, Allston and West Station, before making a new connection along the Grand Junction. This would still allow for the removal of Brandeis/Roberts as a stop for all Fitchburg Line trains, with an express to Littleton/495 operating once per hour in the peak.

Instead, use the extra space along the Fitchburg Line for express tracks and passing sidings to allow for a skip-stop service, plus the rush hour Littleton/495 super express.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Instead, use the extra space along the Fitchburg Line for express tracks and passing sidings to allow for a skip-stop service, plus the rush hour Littleton/495 super express.

Fitchburg is never going to have dense enough service to require extra express tracks. It's branchless (and figures to remain that way because the Central Mass to Hudson is a poor-ridership candidate with lots of station siting problems) making dispatching very straightforward, there's no freight Littleton-inbound, and you'd only need a few extra crossovers to skip-stop or super-express. If the inside-128 Worcester Line can juggle an even bigger service layer cake on 2 tracks with 1-2 more crossovers than today, then so can Fitchburg.

 

[Riverside]

If we're doing capital projects to serve Waltham though, I don't think GL from Union Sq is the best way to do that. I'm again going to point to the Aqua Line

Also:

This is why I now prefer an East Somerville alignment for this concept. Via GLMF, you manage to miss not one but both of the radial transit lines you cross. I can live with missing Union (Union Sq itself should have a 1SR bus ride to Kendall, and points further west can transfer to Red at Porter), but the communities served by the Medford Branch are so ridiculously close to Kendall that it seems absurd that they shouldn't have a 2SR. If we're gonna spend $$$ building this thing, a proper connection at East Somerville seems worth it to include.

 

[Riverside]

Interesting. I somehow thought Waltham was more than that.

Yeah, I think a century of only having slow surface transit and low frequency commuter rail has made it seem more distant. (Probably a similar story for Lynn, tbh.) But yeah, it’s no further than Newton is.

 

[FK4]

Yeah, I think a century of only having slow surface transit and low frequency commuter rail has made it seem more distant. (Probably a similar story for Lynn, tbh.) But yeah, it’s no further than Newton is.

No, I know how close it is, it’s just my perception of the commuter rail, which always, for any destination around here, takes way longer than it should, had me imagining a much longer travel time. My assumptions were just being motivated by pure cynicism.

 

[TheRatmeister]

I think I've got a pretty interesting one: Restore the Stoneham Interurban, but as a GLX branch. First off, here's a quick map.

So, why this route? A few reasons:

1. It serves a town otherwise not well served by any rail transport, with no direct connections into the city
2. Most of the ROW already exists, either along the Fellsway or abandoned in the Fells Reservation
3. This is an area with strong potential for infill development. It has a lot of run-down commercial and industrial spaces, where redevelopment could be stimulated through the addition of new transport links.

A quick route description:
Starting in Stoneham at Richardson Lane, the line would travel along Main St through Stoneham. This portion of the route would feature several closely spaced stations, with around 5-6 level crossings. This would be the slowest part of the route, taking around 10 minutes to reach Spot Pond.

After passing Spot Pond, the line would travel over the first major piece of infrastructure, the Dark Hollow Pond viaduct which would take the line over 93 and join the abandoned ROW to pass through the fells, where it would travel nonstop apart from one request stop to serve the Fells Reservation. It would exit the reservation, traveling over big infrastructure item #2, the Roosevelt Circle Viaduct, to join the Fellsway. This portion of the route would be quite fast, taking around 4-5 minutes.

Then the route would follow the Fellsway all the way to Middlesex Ave/Assembly. A short tunnel would take the line under the Medford Supercollider (Infrastructure item #4). There are very few cross-streets here, making this part relatively quick, especially compared to the GL surface branches. Fells Reservation-Assembly would be about 12 minutes.

And on the home stretch, the route would pass under 93 and Broadway using a short tunnel dug out from Foss Park, before traveling in the median of Rt 28 for around .4 miles. It would then meet the Medford branch of the GLX at a junction, which would probably need to be a flat junction due to space constraints. Due to said space constraints, this would undoubtedly be the most technically complex part of the project, but travel time would be about 2-3 minutes to East Somerville, for a final travel time from Government Center to Stoneham of around 40 minutes, way faster than 93 in rush hour.



So, how much would it cost? We'll use the 2017 cost estimate for the Hyde Sq extension, adjust it for inflation, then double it for good measure to get a cost per mile of around $150 million, for a total cost of $1.3 billion, we'll round that up to $2 billion to be even more conservative. That's honestly not bad, and if development along the line were to happen anything like what has cropped up at Union Sq, it would be well worth the investment.

 

[TheRatmeister]

I think I've got a pretty interesting one: Restore the Stoneham Interurban, but as a GLX branch. First off, here's a quick map.View attachment 58337

So, why this route? A few reasons:

1. It serves a town otherwise not well served by any rail transport, with no direct connections into the city
2. Most of the ROW already exists, either along the Fellsway or abandoned in the Fells Reservation
3. This is an area with strong potential for infill development. It has a lot of run-down commercial and industrial spaces, where redevelopment could be stimulated through the addition of new transport links.

A quick route description:
Starting in Stoneham at Richardson Lane, the line would travel along Main St through Stoneham. This portion of the route would feature several closely spaced stations, with around 5-6 level crossings. This would be the slowest part of the route, taking around 8 minutes to reach Spot Pond.

After passing Spot Pond, the line would travel over the first major piece of infrastructure, the Dark Hollow Pond viaduct which would take the line over 93 and join the abandoned ROW to pass through the fells, where it would travel nonstop apart from one request stop to serve the Fells Reservation. It would exit the reservation, traveling over big infrastructure item #2, the Roosevelt Circle Viaduct, to join the Fellsway. This portion of the route would be quite fast, taking around 4-5 minutes.

Then the route would follow the Fellsway all the way to Middlesex Ave/Assembly. A short tunnel would take the line under the Medford Supercollider (Infrastructure item #4). There are very few cross-streets here, making this part relatively quick, especially compared to the GL surface branches. Fells Reservation-Assembly would be about 12 minutes.

And on the home stretch, the route would pass under 93 and Broadway using a short tunnel dug out from Foss Park, before traveling in the median of Rt 28 for around .4 miles. It would then meet the Medford branch of the GLX at a junction, which would probably need to be a flat junction due to space constraints. Due to said space constraints, this would undoubtedly be the most technically complex part of the project, but travel time would be about 2-3 minutes to East Somerville, for a final travel time from Government Center to Stoneham of around 40 minutes, way faster than 93 in rush hour.



So, how much would it cost? We'll use the 2017 cost estimate for the Hyde Sq extension, adjust it for inflation, then double it for good measure to get a cost per mile of around $150 million, for a total cost of $1.3 billion, we'll round that up to $2 billion to be even more conservative. That's honestly not bad, and if development along the line were to happen anything like what has cropped up at Union Sq, it would be well worth the investment.

That being said, I'm not totally sure how much of the ROW is left. Looking on satellite view, it looks like it could be intact as far as here, but beyond that it may have been erased by 93. Still, that's only around half a mile of discontinuity between Elm St and what appears to be the old ROW.

 

[Charlie_mta]

I think I've got a pretty interesting one: Restore the Stoneham Interurban, but as a GLX branch. First off, here's a quick map.View attachment 58337

So, why this route? A few reasons:

1. It serves a town otherwise not well served by any rail transport, with no direct connections into the city
2. Most of the ROW already exists, either along the Fellsway or abandoned in the Fells Reservation
3. This is an area with strong potential for infill development. It has a lot of run-down commercial and industrial spaces, where redevelopment could be stimulated through the addition of new transport links.

A quick route description:
Starting in Stoneham at Richardson Lane, the line would travel along Main St through Stoneham. This portion of the route would feature several closely spaced stations, with around 5-6 level crossings. This would be the slowest part of the route, taking around 8 minutes to reach Spot Pond.

After passing Spot Pond, the line would travel over the first major piece of infrastructure, the Dark Hollow Pond viaduct which would take the line over 93 and join the abandoned ROW to pass through the fells, where it would travel nonstop apart from one request stop to serve the Fells Reservation. It would exit the reservation, traveling over big infrastructure item #2, the Roosevelt Circle Viaduct, to join the Fellsway. This portion of the route would be quite fast, taking around 4-5 minutes.

Then the route would follow the Fellsway all the way to Middlesex Ave/Assembly. A short tunnel would take the line under the Medford Supercollider (Infrastructure item #4). There are very few cross-streets here, making this part relatively quick, especially compared to the GL surface branches. Fells Reservation-Assembly would be about 12 minutes.

And on the home stretch, the route would pass under 93 and Broadway using a short tunnel dug out from Foss Park, before traveling in the median of Rt 28 for around .4 miles. It would then meet the Medford branch of the GLX at a junction, which would probably need to be a flat junction due to space constraints. Due to said space constraints, this would undoubtedly be the most technically complex part of the project, but travel time would be about 2-3 minutes to East Somerville, for a final travel time from Government Center to Stoneham of around 40 minutes, way faster than 93 in rush hour.



So, how much would it cost? We'll use the 2017 cost estimate for the Hyde Sq extension, adjust it for inflation, then double it for good measure to get a cost per mile of around $150 million, for a total cost of $1.3 billion, we'll round that up to $2 billion to be even more conservative. That's honestly not bad, and if development along the line were to happen anything like what has cropped up at Union Sq, it would be well worth the investment.

I like it, and have thought about it myself over the years. The original right-of-way is intact north of where the Fellsway West dips underneath I-93 at the south end of Spot Pond. So from there to Stoneham, it's basically intact. South of there, you could easily fit in an LRV line along the west side of the Fellsway West down to Roosevelt Circle where, as you propose, a viaduct would carry the LRV line over the ramps and rotary there, and take it onto the Fellsway to tie into the GLX.

The environmental/NIMBY issues would arise in the southern part, running from the south end of Spot Pond to south of Roosevelt Circle, The tree canopy between I-93 and Fellsway West would have to be largely wiped out to fit in the LRV line in that segment. Also, 4F (taking of parkland) would have to be addressed, as much of the line would technically be on the Middlesex Fells Reservation, even though it would be east of I-93 through there. Also, NIMBYs would not like the elevated viaduct over Roosevelt Circle. So, as with any kind of transit development in most of the Boston area, there would be a caca-storm of NIMBYs and environmental issues to deal with. But that aside, I think it's a great idea. It's a shame they did away with that trolley line in the 1950s.

 

[TheRatmeister]

The original right-of-way is intact north of where the Fellsway West dips underneath I-93 at the south end of Spot Pond.

It seems like there could actually be more than that. There's a few spots that look interesting from above, and I saw one comment somewhere, I unfortunately can't find it now, saying that they were able to find something on the east side of 93.

The environmental/NIMBY issues would arise in the southern part, running from the south end of Spot Pond to south of Roosevelt Circle, The tree canopy between I-93 and Fellsway West would have to be largely wiped out to fit in the LRV line in that segment

Even if the ROW is intact as far as I think it might be, you're right that it's still around .4 miles of new ROW that would need to be taken from the tree boundary.

 

[The EGE]

For the northern half from Brooks Road to North Border Road, the line was on a fully private ROW (some single track, some double) which is intact as trails except for where I-93 crosses. The southern half was fully double-track along the side of Fellsway. Some is completely obliterated by 93 (Fellsway was relocated for much of that section), some obliterated by Fellsway widening, and the rest reclaimed by nature.

It's certainly an interesting idea to think about (and I like that you brought it up!), given the amount of ROW that exists, but I don't see it as likely to be feasible. You'd have a very hard time getting environmental clearance for reactivating the line - the 4(f) issues of impacting parkland tend to be difficult, and the remaining ROW would not be wide enough for 2 tracks + trail. (The Dark Hollow Pond viaduct, built wide enough for 2 tracks but with only one laid, almost certainly is in no shape to handle Green Line trains.)

The Fellsway Line was built in an era of competition - the Bay State Street Railway and BERy wanted to steal passengers from the B&M. In the modern public ownership era, I can't imagine spending billions to build a rail line to a town to 23,000 when there are two rail lines and an interstate highway already. Bus service to regional rail (or Green/Orange extensions) - especially a future Montvale station that also connects to the rail trail - should provide Stoneham high-quality service at a lower price tag.

The usual cases for rail are capacity, speed, and ROW that buses can't use (such as through-running with existing rail); none of those are really applicable here. At 8 miles long, with only a third of that on off-street ROW, it would be a slog. In the BERy days it was 24 minutes just from Sullivan to Sheep Fold, and something like 35-40 minutes to Stoneham. You're probably looking at 50+ minutes from Stoneham to downtown. That's not going to beat bus + regional rail with NSRL, or bus + extended Orange/Green on entirely private ROW, to any of the major employment centers.

I do think Fellsway south of Roosevelt Circle is a good candidate for a center-running busway. While the 100 isn't a high-priority route, there's more room for bus lanes than on the 101.

 

[TheRatmeister]

That's not going to beat bus + regional rail with NSRL, or bus + extended Orange/Green on entirely private ROW, to any of the major employment centers.

I'm not sure that's actually the case. Even with Transitmatters extremely optimistic travel times, Greenwood-North Station is still 15 minutes (compared to 27 today), plus another 15-20 between the bus+transfer time. So that's an optimistic 30 minutes, or a more realistic 35-40. I've estimated around 40 minutes for Stoneham-Govy, which is pretty darn close.

with only a third of that on off-street ROW,

I'd like to unpack this a bit, because I think there's more here than meets the eye. The first 1.7 miles through Stoneham, gonna be pretty slow. I used an average speed of 10 MPH for a total travel time of 10 minutes on this section. After that, between the Fells and a long section of the Fellsway where there are no cross-streets, there is around 3.5 miles of clear ROW, where the average speed would be around 40 MPH. You could get from South St in Stoneham to Salem St in Medford in 5-6 minutes. From there, assuming tunnels at Foss Park and the Medford Supercollider and removing the left turn on Middlesex Ave, there would only be 7 crossings left for the entire rest of the route. And because this is an old streetcar median, if we wanted to tunnel under these intersections to remove at least some of these crossings, it would not be an incredibly cost-intensive exercise. Three underpasses, (Riverside Ave, Central Ave, and the Fellsway Split/Salem St) would effectively extend the dedicated ROW by another 1.7 miles. Now instead of 1/3 on a dedicated ROW, it's almost 2/3.

Even if we don't do that, assuming a average speed of 15 MPH for the whole stretch between the East Somerville junction and Salem St, that would still get you from Government Center to Salem St in 25 minutes. If we did build those grade seperations, then it would be more like 20-22 minutes.

I can't imagine spending billions to build a rail line to a town to 23,000

Yes, part of the line is serving a town of 23k. This part is much more speculative, based on the potential rezoning and development of the whole Main St corridor. It cerainly seems like if something like this were built it could actually go ahead.

But the rest of the line is serving existing relatively dense communities. Neighborhoods like Edgeworth in Malden, with a population density of 16k/mi2, Wellington or Glenwood in Medford with around 15k/mi2, or East Somerville with around 21k/mi2. Now we're expanding transit access to well over 40k people, a similar number to just the population of Arlington.

 

[TheRatmeister]

Also:

View attachment 58270

This is why I now prefer an East Somerville alignment for this concept. Via GLMF, you manage to miss not one but both of the radial transit lines you cross. I can live with missing Union (Union Sq itself should have a 1SR bus ride to Kendall, and points further west can transfer to Red at Porter), but the communities served by the Medford Branch are so ridiculously close to Kendall that it seems absurd that they shouldn't have a 2SR. If we're gonna spend $$$ building this thing, a proper connection at East Somerville seems worth it to include.

This could be fixed with an Inner Belt infill. A new station here could hit both GLX branches without relocating the junction. I suspect that's probably cheaper than a tunnel to East Somerville as well.

 

[Riverside]

Yeah, this is definitely one of those "placemaking" transit pitches, in that it's just as much about creating a new place/new kind of place, not just serving what's there today. I think this is definitely a worthwhile kind of endeavor. As much as we focus on getting people in and out of major cities for commuting, it's also important to consider how to make suburbs that are less car-centric, supporting non-commuting journeys. This pitch seems to encompass some of that.

(For that purpose, I would also suggest extending it north an extra 0.3 miles to serve the shopping plaza; either it will remain a useful commercial destination for riders, or it will be redeveloped into housing; either way, worth weaving in some transit.)

I also think it'd worth considering this corridor as a Sullivan feeder route instead of an out-and-out branch of the Green Line running directly into downtown. (This would also reflect the Fellsway historic service pattern, I think.) Especially if you routed it down Grand Union Blvd's large median through Assembly, you'd be providing that much more access to a regional commercial and employment hub.

(Also, I'm pretty sure that the fact that the 100 ends at Fellsway @ Elm St is another example of an arbitrary route truncation that simply arises from the territorial boundary between BERy and the Eastern Massachusetts -- the same reason that the B ends at Lake St.)

You'd have a very hard time getting environmental clearance for reactivating the line - the 4(f) issues of impacting parkland tend to be difficult

This is an aside, but this seems emblemmatic of a larger failure of the modern environmentalist movement. Conservation is vital, but it needs to be done contextually. A new LRT interurban would make it easier to get to the park without a car. We want that. A new LRT interurban would make it possible to make local journeys from Stoneham to Medford without a car; we want that. And I mean, there's a freaking interstate highway running through the park already, ffs. (I know you aren't per se advocating for the policy, @The EGE, just stating the current realities of the policy.)

The first 1.7 miles through Stoneham, gonna be pretty slow. I used an average speed of 10 MPH for a total travel time of 10 minutes on this section. After that, between the Fells and a long section of the Fellsway where there are no cross-streets, there is around 3.5 miles of clear ROW, where the average speed would be around 40 MPH.

...

Even if we don't do that, assuming a average speed of 15 MPH for the whole stretch between the East Somerville junction and Salem St, that would still get you from Government Center to Salem St in 25 minutes. If we did build those grade seperations, then it would be more like 20-22 minutes.

I feel a little bad bringing this up (since I know you and I have gone back and forth on this before), but can you expand a little bit on your speed estimates here? The clear ROW segment averaging 40 mph generally makes sense, but the 10mph and 15mph estimates seem high to me.

 

[Riverside]

This could be fixed with an Inner Belt infill. A new station here could hit both GLX branches without relocating the junction. I suspect that's probably cheaper than a tunnel to East Somerville as well.

I certainly could be wrong about this, but I went way down a rabbit hole here a couple of years ago, and I think this location also doesn't work. The problem is that the circumferential service (Aqua Line, or Bronze Line below) still needs to cross from the south side of the mainline tracks to the north. (Probably needing to traverse the BET.)

No matter where you do it, the Fitchburg Line needs to be crossed; the advantage of the East Somerville alignment is that it lets you do the crossing at one of the narrowest points:

(I'm a little less confident about my solution for Medford <> GLMF yard access as I've sketched it above, but I think it could still work somehow.)

 

[TheRatmeister]

but the 10mph and 15mph estimates seem high to me.

To be honest it's a very rough guesstimate, but if it's high I don't think it would be high by much.

If the C branch can average 8.5MPH with 11 traffic lights and up to 11 stops between Cleveland Circle and St Marys St, (3.8 lights or stops per mile), 10MPH with 2.5 lights/stops per mile (same number, 5 each for both again) between South St and Redstone plaza seems fairly reasonable. (If I've done my napkin math right, assuming a linear relationship between average distance between lights/stops and speed, a better estimate would be 13MPH. I'll keep using 10 to be conservative.)

Likewise, the southern segment is around 1.8 lights per mile, so 15MPH felt about right. (Assuming the same linear relationship it could be around 18MPH).

I'm actually slightly more confident about the southern segment because of just how few crossings there actually are. Assuming short tunnels are built at Foss Park and the Medford Supercollider, plus a couple minor left-turns removed, there are only 6 crossings between any tunnel or viaduct at Roosevelt Circle and the GLX. (Salem St, Fellsway Split, Central Ave, Riverside Ave, Grand Union Blvd, and Pearl St. (The removed ones are at Presidents Landing and Middlesex Ave).

And of course, this is an area where grade-separations at crossings would be very easy, with the exception of probably Pearl St and Grand Union Blvd. Effectively extending the dedicated ROW all the way to the Wellington Bridge (and therefore raising the average speed to around 23MPH, the same as the D branch) would be fairly easy.

 

[TheRatmeister]

I certainly could be wrong about this, but I went way down a rabbit hole here a couple of years ago, and I think this location also doesn't work. The problem is that the circumferential service (Aqua Line, or Bronze Line below) still needs to cross from the south side of the mainline tracks to the north. (Probably needing to traverse the BET.)

View attachment 58417

No matter where you do it, the Fitchburg Line needs to be crossed; the advantage of the East Somerville alignment is that it lets you do the crossing at one of the narrowest points:
View attachment 58418

(I'm a little less confident about my solution for Medford <> GLMF yard access as I've sketched it above, but I think it could still work somehow.)

You could build a cutting like this for the circumferential service. The station would be similar to your proposed McGrath station, built in a shallow cutting and then presumably covered over to deal with all the train yard noise.

I'll call each proposal by the station names, so Inner Belt for this one and McGrath/East Somerville for yours. Here's a brief comparison

Inner Belt	McGrath/East Somerville
No tunneling under buildings, but tunnel is longer	Shorter tunnel, but it needs to go under buildings
Hits both GLX branches with one stop	Hits both GLX branches with two stops
Two new stations: One elevated (D/E) and one below grade (UR)	Three new stations, One elevated (UR East Somerville), one at grade (D McGrath), one below grade (UR McGrath)
Alignment would not allow interlining with D/E	Alignment would allow potential interlining with D/E

In terms of which one is better, I think it mostly comes down to how tunnel costs work out. My intuition that a simple capped cut under the tracks would be cheaper, even though it's a bit longer, but that isn't based on much. The fact that you also need another set of platforms at East Somerville to hit both GLX branches is also a cost-negative.

If you value interlining the McGrath/East Somerville approach is clearly better, but as long as GLX is using low-floor vehicles I think that's not a good idea.