EastCambridgeDreamer
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Montreal does something like this, and I find it helpful!
Better MBTA Station Names
- Thread starter Smuttynose
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Teban54
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I view the particular station of "Harvard" more favorably than other squares, primarily because: It has two (very notable) interpretations, Harvard University and Harvard Square. Rather than picking one interpretation over the other, it actually feels nicer to have intentional ambiguity here -- as long as the shortened name, "Harvard", remains clear and sounds natural (which it is).
Full list of stations where I would personally do this: (Note that this does not consider renaming due to the namesake person)
- Harvard (Harvard University and Harvard Square)
- State (State St and Old State House)
- Charles/MGH (Charles St and Charles River)
- Fairmount (Fairmount Ave and Fairmount Hill)
- Although I suppose that in the transit sphere, "Fairmount Line" is more notable than both of these
- Although I suppose that in the transit sphere, "Fairmount Line" is more notable than both of these
- Bowdoin (Bowdoin St and Bowdoin Square)
- Considering that Bowdoin St has its own Wikipedia page, I'll take that as indication that even the street is notable enough (unlike Kenmore St)
- Maverick (Maverick Square and Maverick St)
- While the square is obviously better known, Maverick St is one of the only two east-west thoroughfares in the region, so I suspect it has some local notability
- Ashmont (Ashmont St, Ashmont Hill, and the section of Dorchester named Ashmont)
- To be fair, I don't know how much the station's name played a part in naming all three -- or more generally, how much "placemaking effect" that the Red Line station had.
- My understanding is that, when most people refer to "Ashmont" today, they typically think of the Red Line station, and likely not Ashmont St or Ashmont Hill. (For comparison, consider Winter Hill in Somerville.)
- Basically: Would the neighborhood still be known as Ashmont today, if the Red Line station took a different name in 1928?
- Kenmore (Kenmore Square, the Fenway-Kenmore neighborhood, and Kenmore St)
- Obviously, "Kenmore St" is far less notable than the first two
- I would have added "Square" to it if the neighborhood wasn't already well-known, and officially recognized, as Fenway-Kenmore
- This is a clear case of placemaking effect: AFAIK, the name progressed as Street -> Station -> Square -> Neighborhood
- But with both the square and the neighborhood already well-known today, explicitly naming the station "Kenmore Square" feels backwards
- Assembly (Assembly Square and Assembly Row)
- Oh my, this one is messy
- Apparently, "Assembly Square" is the proper name of the square and the neighborhood, whereas "Assembly Row" is technically a specific development within Assembly Square
- But in practice, people seem to use the two terms interchangeably enough, to the point where I'd consider them equally notable
- Prudential (Prudential Center and Prudential Tower)
- Shares some similarities with Assembly, and technically it's common to consider Prudential Center and Prudential Tower as "the same thing"
- Also largely because "Prudential" sounds natural and unambiguous enough
- Ruggles (Ruggles St and the transportation hub)
- Yes, this feels more like an exception -- where the second interpretation is entirely due to the station itself
- But with how notable Ruggles is today as the multimodal hub (not as a street), naming it "Ruggles St" may be too unnatural
- Alewife (Alewife Brook and Alewife Brook Pkwy)
- I'm the least fond of this one for a variety of reasons
- But I suppose my main reason for keeping "Alewife" is that, by now, "Alewife" alone has a placemaking effect for the region -- especially because the adjacent development was due to the station
This does not consider any "better names": only working based on current names.
- Butler -> Butler St
- Andrew -> Andrew Sq
- Kendall/MIT -> Kendall Sq/MIT
- Central -> Central Sq Cambridge
- Porter -> Porter Sq
- Davis -> Davis Sq
- Lechmere -> Lechmere Sq
- According to Wikipedia, the square got its name from "Lechmere's Point" on Revolutionary War maps; but apparently nobody is referencing "Lechmere's Point" today
- Boylston -> Boylston St
- Arlington -> Arlington St
- Copley -> Copley Sq
- Even though "Copley" as a station name is beautiful, AFAIK, there aren't any other locations known as Copley other than the square
- Especially as the City of Boston is calling the park "Copley Square Park" and not "Copley Park"
- Nubian -> Nubian Sq
- Looks like locals got the square renamed first, then pushed MBTA to rename the bus hub
- However, onboard bus announcements still say "Nubian Station", not "Nubian Square"
- Can "Nubian Station" itself be considered notable enough? I suppose not, especially due to:
- The young age of the "station"'s name (like Magoun Square)
- Before the rename, people also often referred to it as Dudley Square (rather than "Dudley Station"), even including the transit hub
- "Station" often implies a rapid transit station, and using that to call Nubian is blatant injustice
- Why the difference from Ruggles? It's a tough question, but:
- Ruggles's outreach is very broad by now due to its service coverage -- potentially someone from Providence can know to get off at Ruggles Station. But Nubian is generally known to a much smaller area.
- Nubian Square (and the previous name Dudley Square) are also more notable, and specific enough as a location indicator, than Ruggles St
That's a good question... While some of the issues with "Central" would probably still apply to "Central Square", my guess is that the latter is (at least slightly) less ambiguous.
It sounds like "Central Square Cambridge" is the shortest name that completely removes all ambiguities. That's admittedly too long, but:
- "Union Square Somerville" and "Union Square Allston" are equally long (and coincidentally in similar regions on the map as Central Square Cambridge), so their presence would make "Central Square Cambridge" less awkward
- As a by-product, it also naturally resolves any ambiguity with Central Square Lynn; even though (1) this isn't a big issue, and (2) any future rapid transit station at Central Square Lynn should simply be named "Lynn" anyway
EastCambridgeDreamer
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Yes, but "Chelsea 2nd St" is more in line with how train stations are named. See Philadelphia 30th St Station.
Not to mention Central Square in East Boston, and Central Square in Woburn
JeffDowntown
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Actually, you are going to need the Lynn Central Square designation, because the River Works flag stop will likely be relocated into West Lynn as a second Lynn regular stop.
That's true, and like we discussed before, it's definitely a nice "feature" of "State" station, for example. "Prudential" is probably the strongest additional case of the "intentional ambiguity" scenario being effective.
Looking at the rest of your list (which, personally, I largely agree with, and also I agree illustrates the challenges with the principle), I'm struck by the number of them that could also be described using my "Small neighborhoods where the extent of the neighborhood matches the extent of the walkshed" approach. Ashmont and Kenmore, definitely, debatably Alewife, Maverick, Fairmount, and Assembly. Coming back to "Harvard", I think there's an argument to be made for the existence of a (micro)neighborhood called "Harvard", in which case it would fall into this category too.
Some comments on the ones that you would change (many of which I agree with)
I think the inclusion of a second name after a slash is reason to drop "Sq" for concision. (I also think "Kendall" has the strongest argument of any Red Line North station to be referring to a neighborhood called "Kendall," and not just the square proper.)
That's a really interesting note about the City calling it "Copley Square Park".
Ruggles is probably exceeded only by Kenmore in terms of "stations named after minor streets where the station is now vastly more prominent than the street".
As for Nubian, I could be convinced either way (mostly by the community's perspective), but I think if we're going to add Sq to Davis, Porter, Central, Lechmere, Andrew, and Copley, then it's not a problem to just call it Nubian Square.
Well, I guess I should have said in the first place that I don't love "Union Square Somerville" and "Union Square Allston" very much either
It's really a struggle though, because, like, those places are both called "Union Square". The vague sense I get is that Somerville's has risen/is rising into being more of a neighborhood/microneighborhood, so perhaps it should get "dibs".But Allston's also sits at, like, the worst intersection naming-wise:
- Cambridge St
- calling it "Cambridge St" would be confusing since it's not in Cambridge
- Brighton Ave
- calling it "Brighton Ave" would be confusing since it's not in Brighton
- North Beacon St
- nowhere near the normal Beacon St
- and North Beacon extends 2.5 miles west from here, so the "center of gravity" for that streetname is probably west of here also
Alternatively, perhaps something with the nearby Horace Mann School or the Jackson/Mann Community Center?
Teban54
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Union Square Somerville:Well, I guess I should have said in the first place that I don't love "Union Square Somerville" and "Union Square Allston" very much either
But Allston's also sits at, like, the worst intersection naming-wise:
Perhaps "Allston Union"?
- Cambridge St
- calling it "Cambridge St" would be confusing since it's not in Cambridge
- Brighton Ave
- calling it "Brighton Ave" would be confusing since it's not in Brighton
- North Beacon St
- nowhere near the normal Beacon St
- and North Beacon extends 2.5 miles west from here, so the "center of gravity" for that streetname is probably west of here also
Alternatively, perhaps something with the nearby Horace Mann School or the Jackson/Mann Community Center?
First of all, I personally would advocate for keeping the word "Somerville" in the station's name, even on today's real-world map, regardless of anything else -- whether we want to do anything with "Square" systemwide, whether or how Union Sq Allston shows up on the map, etc.
- Both Union Square Somerville and Union Square Allston are notable cultural destinations, even in the broader region beyond their respective municipalities. In addition, traveling between the two destinations is relatively easy.
- So it's very plausible that an uninformed rider wants to travel to one particular Union Square, but ends up using the map to find directions to the wrong one.
- Having any "Union" on the map -- regardless of whether the other one appears -- increases the chance of such mistakes.
- The fact that both Union Squares are near the Green Line, and of a similar distance away from downtown Boston, only makes it worse.
Union Square Allston:
With the above discussion, I'd be more comfortable with showing "Union Square Allston" on the map. If anything, having "Union Square Somerville" is a stronger argument for "Union Square Allston", for more explicit disambiguation.
Another argument to keep it: Unlike other locations in that part of Allston, "Union Square" is unusually well-defined. This will be clearer below...
Bonus challenge: Name all Allston stations!
In a hypothetical crayon map, this small area can have 4 stations that could use new or improved names:
"Brighton Line" is perhaps most easily interpreted as a resurrected A branch streetcar, but I wanted to keep the labels general.
Note: I opted to exclude today's Parkards Corner and Boston Landing stations from this discussion, because they're also well-defined names for local neighborhoods and specific developments. (Technically, "Packards Corner" refers to the triangular region between Comm Ave, Brighton Ave and Harvard Ave. But it's impractical to use the name for the other two corners.)
The issue is that not a lot of good names are available:
- Union Square Allston
- (+) Most well-known name for this general area
- (-) Refers to a highly specific intersection
- Allston Village
- (+) Second most common name of the neighborhood
- (+) Refers to a wide area, so can be a "throwaway" name for anything
- (-) You can only use it once
- Harvard Ave
- The road can pass through up to 3 stations
- Plus, may lead to confusion with Harvard (Square / Red Line)
- Brighton Music Hall
- May create the false impression that it's in Brighton (the municipality)
- I also considered "Music Hall", but there's an MGM Music Hall at Fenway
- Brighton Ave
- Same issues as Brighton Music Hall, and more
- Cambridge St
- Similar issues as Harvard Ave
Here's my best attempt:
- West: Union Sq Allston
- Easiest and most specific name of all
- North: Allston Center
- Even though this is at the northern end of the "Allston Village" area (the commercial center of Allston), it's the closest to the center of the geographical boundaries of Allston, which is heavily tilted north of the Pike
- Especially as it splits the line between Lower Allston and Allston Village, the two main parts of Allston
- South: South Allston
- Both because it's at the southern end of Allston Village, and because it's also practically at the southern end of Allston's geographical boundaries -- Brookline starts 1.5 blocks away south of there
- Technically, this is not the southernmost point of Allston's boundaries: That's closer to the B's Griggs St and Allston St stations. But that part may be better described as "Southwest Allston"
- In some places, "South Allston" is also used to describe the larger neighborhood south of the Pike (basically what I referred to as Allston Village). That interpretation would make the name choice less ideal. But since the phrase is broad and underspecified, this is a decent compromise
- Center: Allston Village
- Basically using it as a "throwaway name"
- It's also the most centrally located site in the entire Allston Village commercial area
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themissinglink
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The intersection of Harvard Ave and Brighton Ave is occasionally (unofficially) referred to as “Koreatown”, but it’s more of a recent thing. If the name sticks, maybe it could be used as a station name?
Prior to seeing this pic, I had no idea that "South Allston" was a thing -- and I owned/lived there for 13 years. Weird.
Teban54
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It's in fact quite possible that "South Allston" isn't actually a thing, or just a term that I made up, lol.
As I mentioned in the "spoiler", while a Google search does reveal a few uses of "South Allston" in the press or webpages, there's nothing well-defined or official about this phrase.
But interestingly, Google Trends says that "South Allston" is actually searched more frequently than even "Lower Allston". Not sure if they're actually referring to Allston MA, though.