Air Rights (writ-large) Thread

[Digital_Islandboy]

BRA's running a listening session on decking over three of the nasty on-ramp parcels left on the Greenway. From the article linked below it sounds like there is no decision yet as to what goes on the deck.

http://bostinno.streetwise.co/2014/...ublic-hearing-for-greenway-ramp-parcel-study/

Thursday, 6PM @ City Hall

I wonder how they will get that done? These sections run from street level down into the series of big dig tunnels. Therefore wouldn't that require at least buildings of two or more stories on the Rose Kennedy Greenway to cover these areas? Perhaps something like how Copley Mall covers the exit ramps of the Mass Turnpike?

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.348...4!1sO1IEHmehSDcxcWmHVhYt3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Personally, it would be nice if they could get that ugly spaghetti tangle of the Southeast Expressway/MassTurnpike tangle. decked. That would be a great spot to have the Rose Kennedy Greenway extended on towards Mass. Ave.

 

[FK4]

I wonder how they will get that done? These sections run from street level down into the series of big dig tunnels. Therefore wouldn't that require at least buildings of two or more stories on the Rose Kennedy Greenway to cover these areas? Perhaps something like how Copley Mall covers the exit ramps of the Mass Turnpike?

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.348...4!1sO1IEHmehSDcxcWmHVhYt3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Personally, it would be nice if they could get that ugly spaghetti tangle of the Southeast Expressway/MassTurnpike tangle. decked. That would be a great spot to have the Rose Kennedy Greenway extended on towards Mass. Ave.

That won't ever happen, way too expensive.

The worst parcel that also is unlikely to ever get covered up is the one right by haymarket with the signs for both the airport tunnel and 93

 

[JeffDowntown]

That won't ever happen, way too expensive.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with FK4 on this. There has been some interesting early planning for covering the entire 1-93/1-90 interchange area (Chinatown Gateway Study, in 2006; South Bay Planning Study, 2012); including extending the Greenway south, but the cost is really insane.

We cannot even mobilize development on the DOT parcels (parcels 25, 26, 27, 28) that are mostly land, and abut Kneeland Street, because the limited decking is cost prohibitive.

Basically, don't expect to see this area developed unless the City or State cough up the funds to turn "air rights" into decked "land".

 

[bobthebuilder]

Was going to post this in the Mass pike parcels 12 -15 thread, but thought it fit better here. Just came across some videos of the first couple of sections of the Rockerfeller University's East River campus being set in place over the FDR and thought folks here might find them interesting.

Module 1
Module 2
Module 3


Animation of the full project

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Amtrak and NYC freshly unveil Sunnyside Yard Air Rights master plan:

https://sunnysideyard.nyc/

https://api.sunnysideyard.nyc/files/2020-03/200302_SSY_MPH_Executive%20Summary_0.pdf

While I fully expect NYC local-grift cost premiums and local vs. state vs. fed turf warrage to imperil this one before it ever gains traction...but bygawd! what a breathtaking presentation they put out.

The mission statement alone is tighter-wrapped around its core values than anything Boston's moribund planning agencies have ever tried to collaborate on for any of our critical air rights parcels. Reading this makes it eleventy times sadder that the big players @ B24 thought even momentarily that they had a prayer in hell of getting an Olympic Stadium erected on the Widett Circle 'bowl' through hand-waving of bland platitudes and moving goalposts to try to goad a lead developer into somehow absorbing all the risk. Sure, we citizens knew better even when they didn't. But Step 1 to breaking out of all these decades of insufferable planning brainlock is to at least start talking an immaculate game about strength-of-mission overpowering the logistical hurdles, and the broad-based coordination required to get it done. Which NY does here bullseyeing formation of a governance board as first step, and dumping their info motherlode up-front on what can and can't be built where and how high for how much $$$ over what part of the property (you know...instead of letting the developers go 10 renders deep slowly whittling-down their creations from complications revealed after the fact, until they inevitably give up in abject frustration).

We've got an enormously long fucking ways to go if stuff like this Sunnyside salvo is what sets the bar for an honest attempt at thinking big in hopes of acting big.

 

[MjolnirMan]

Amtrak and NYC freshly unveil Sunnyside Yard Air Rights master plan:

Out of everything in there, I think this stuck out to me the most (blame OCD):

I have wondered for YEARS why Boston has never done that.

 

[The EGE]

What stuck out to me was the intentional use of small blocks, under the understanding that it creates a more neighborhood-like feel. Compare that to the Beacon Park plans, with their huge blocks and grotesquely wide speedway streets.

 

[Stlin]

For want of a better thread for this, apparently Boston is getting a grant from USDOT to study the development of an air-rights park / green space over the pike between Shawmut Ave and Washington St (Parcel 21) as well as developing design guidelines for adjoining parcels, which apparently would stimulate further air rights developments for housing / commerical uses in this area. Apparently, this is a spotlight project for the grant program as a whole.

Frankly, I'd have questions - presumably, a relatively lightweight parks deck would be cheaper to build than that for an entire building, but would any of that do anything that would meaningfully move the needle for future projects? Why not a combo park / build ready deck?

 

[JeffDowntown]

I keep wondering if this area would be better served by air rights that move the surface streets on either side (Herald and Marginal, both one way) to the center of the air rights, and capture the terra firma the streets occupy as potential starter footprints for towers there. Less of the buildings would then be on air rights decks. Alley access can be provided to the few abutters (there are no major building entrances on either street, although that may be changing with the new JQUS).

 

[Massachoicetts]

parks would work great here.

 

[Charlie_mta]

I keep wondering if this area would be better served by air rights that move the surface streets on either side (Herald and Marginal, both one way) to the center of the air rights, and capture the terra firma the streets occupy as potential starter footprints for towers there. Less of the buildings would then be on air rights decks. Alley access can be provided to the few abutters (there are no major building entrances on either street, although that may be changing with the new JQUS).

A few years ago, Davem created this layout for moving the frontage roads to the center of the Mass Pike corridor, thus freeing up land along the sides of the Pike for new buildings on terra-firma. Here is is:

 

[Highwayguy]

Like the overall idea, but there will have to be a vent building if everything East of Mass Ave is decked over. Moving the surface streets over the centerline of the artery would definitely complicate that even if the vent building was built on terra firma due to the limited clearance to squeeze in the ducts.

 

[Aprehensive_Words]

Would that even work over the NEC/MBCR tracks? They rise a not-insignificant amount between Back Bay and South Station (albeit mostly starting around Harrison Ave.), and the gantries etc. that support the catenary extend a fair bit above the sidewalk, leaving little room for the beams etc. to support a deck/

 

[Equilibria]

Like the overall idea, but there will have to be a vent building if everything East of Mass Ave is decked over. Moving the surface streets over the centerline of the artery would definitely complicate that even if the vent building was built on terra firma due to the limited clearance to squeeze in the ducts.

I think that's worth it, whatever the complication. Decking and not freeing up the terra firma is a waste to me.

 

[Highwayguy]

I think its “worth it” too, it would just be an another barrier added to the ones that have prevented air rights development for the last 60 years. ‘Enemy of good is perfect’ and all that. Another issue would be that unless the street was the width of the pike+ 4 RR tracks (not great), the girders under the street & bents on the pike median would be integral to the half terra firma/ half air rights buildings. Not impossible to design around but would almost 100% mean that all of those parcels would have to be developed at once in one mega development instead of incrementally.

TLDR:
1) there’s 1001 constraints that have prevented ‘easy’ air rights development on very valuable land for the last 60 years
2) don’t ram freeways through the urban core in the first place since those scars take literal generations to heal.

 

[MjolnirMan]

Some tangential contextual things for this new development:

1. Prime yourself with the old "A Civic Vision for Turnpike Air Rights in Boston" for a 2000-era Menino perspective on the air rights situation. See specifically page 49 for their studies on alternate routing for Marginal/Herald (they decided not to). New construction on Marginal such as the Josiah Quincy School locks in some of that geometry.
2. Park space is a pretty big deal for Chinatown - there is ongoing drama involving Reggie Wong Park on Kneeland, one of the neighborhood's only public parks (One Greenway is private) and one contaminated by asbestos.
3. Sadly, when optimistically considering potential air rights developments on i.e. Parcel 21, keep in mind that there is currently a building under construction on the semicircle Tai Tung Parking lot just above the I-90 icon in Stlin's photo. It will be six stories with no basement due to funding constraints, despite being 100% on terra firma and (as I note in that thread) capable of supporting ~2 Radian buildings easily. Combined with the track record of nearby air rights projects like Columbus Center, that bodes poorly to me for significant construction on these parcels before I die.

I am however excited that anything is happening here at all. Chinatown has terrible air quality, some of which is related to highway proximity, and capping these with anything will improve it. But as I commented in the JQS thread, "I still think the adjacent highway air rights parcels would have been a good place to rebuild the lower and upper schools, and/or local library, park, community center, etc. - a good place for low-rise buildings funded in part by selling high-rise development rights to the terra firma parcels."

It's a shame IMO that they're building the JQS and Tai Tung lot buildings as 6-8 story oddly-shaped blocks with no basement usage on solid ground right next to the highway, when spreading either one's mass out into a much wider (i.e.) 4-story building with central courtyard would be easier to build on air-rights, leaving these smaller and oddly-shaped terra firma parcels for something tall and with underground parking.