Andover Newton Theological Seminary Redevelopment | Newton

[Shepard]

Andover Newton Theological Seminary is winding down operations and planning to move. For those who haven't been up there, it's a small, beautiful campus - a bit like a mini-Harvard atop a large hill, literally five minute's walk from Newton Centre T stop. It also has the Wilson Chapel, a great piece of architecture. Question is: What will take its place on this prime piece of transit-accessible land? Is adaptive re-use an option?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...l?p1=Article_Recommended_ArticleText#comments

Streetview along the main "mall" https://www.google.com/maps/@42.325...m4!1sz_XgsYiD9TuCHvHiUfrj8w!2e0!7i3328!8i1664

Mods - if there's a better existing thread for this, by all means please move it!

 

[DBM]

Not to suggest auto-centric amenities, but, let's face it, it's also extremely convenient to some major surface roads--2 minutes from Route 9, adjacent to Center St., 2 minutes from Beacon St., 5 minutes from Comm. Ave. Hopefully something amazing happens here.

Newton Center T stop neighborhood is really bustling now (or gentrified, some detractors might say, compared to when the skater punks roamed there in the '90s), we'll see how well any new development integrates into the T neighborhood scene.

 

[Equilibria]

I'm not getting my hopes up. That land is worth an obscene amount of money, which means the only people bidding for it are going to be for-profit. Herrick Rd. is a dead end, so I don't think commercial or retail is much of an option. I foresee a half-hearted effort to get the City to buy the land for a park, followed by a lengthy and bitter public debate about density, and finally a redevelopment into the same type of apartment/condos/townhouses that grace the hill behind it.

I bet the chapels survive, though. Always a need for small prayer spaces in 21st Century America.

 

[Shepard]

Ugh, that endless-loop townhouse development behind the seminary is such absolute garbage I'd have to think Newton would have serious buyer's remorse for ever having allowed it to go forward. Every last surface is tan! Streetview of that POS: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.322...4!1sWenr6wlQNs2LPvT0DCbD2Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 What's funny, though, is that it is probably significantly more densely populated than almost any other parcel in Newton. Very dense the way non-hill residential SoCal is dense (and, relative to many other places, it is).

 

[Equilibria]

Ugh, that endless-loop townhouse development behind the seminary is such absolute garbage I'd have to think Newton would have serious buyer's remorse for ever having allowed it to go forward. Every last surface is tan! Streetview of that POS: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.322...4!1sWenr6wlQNs2LPvT0DCbD2Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 What's funny, though, is that it is probably significantly more densely populated than almost any other parcel in Newton. Very dense the way non-hill residential SoCal is dense (and, relative to many other places, it is).

I actually did a StreetView in there just after writing that post. Watched it being built when I was doing Hebrew School on the hill but I've never been in there. Absolute garbage is right. The City couldn't have asked them to at least design a second house?

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

That's sad. My mom used to work there.

 

[datadyne007]

That's sad. My mom used to work there.

I also have a personal connection to ANTS. My husband got his MDiv there a couple years ago. Great location. I met him out there after his classes every so often by taking the T to Newton Centre.

As for redevelopment, it's Newton. Any proposal that is not leaving the buildings empty is going to be met with epic resistance.

 

[Equilibria]

As for redevelopment, it's Newton. Any proposal that is not leaving the buildings empty is going to be met with epic resistance.

Well, the one thing they can't stop is a religious building, and Congregation Mishkan Tefilah just sold their land a half-mile away as the crow flies. They'll definitely talk about it, especially if there's only been ANTS's objection to a direct connection to Langley. A synagogue with parking would be protected by the Dover Amendment and would take up about a third of the site (2.5 acres or so).

 

[West]

Well, the one thing they can't stop is a religious building, and Congregation Mishkan Tefilah just sold their land a half-mile away as the crow flies. They'll definitely talk about it, especially if there's only been ANTS's objection to a direct connection to Langley. A synagogue with parking would be protected by the Dover Amendment and would take up about a third of the site (2.5 acres or so).

Hadn't thought about Mishkan Tefilah but it's a logical possibility. Boston College is another obvious possibility, even though they're buying Mishkan Tefilah's land and not long ago bought the archdiocese land. BC has a pretty good hunger for space, including residential space. They've got a goal of getting to 100% dorm capacity for undergraduates within a few more years, and some of how they were going to meet that was way down the hill on the Brighton campus. This site in Newton Center wouldn't be a lot farther, and they already run shuttle busses over to the Newton Campus (the old Newton College campus, I mean).

Come to think of it, the ANTS site would make a great spot for BC to be able to provide graduate student housing. I've only been in a few of those dorms but many of the ANTS students are married and some of the housing is oriented towards that, in suites and what not. Others could be reconfigured.

I am completely speculating here.

 

[West]

And yeah, this is going to bring out Newton NIMBYism at its worst, no matter what gets proposed. Even if someone buys it to let it stand there empty. I know that's not happening, but as a theoretical straw man: leaving it stand empty as is would still draw the NIMBYs. As a Newton resident, I am not looking forward to the conversations.

I've got a cousin who went there. It is sad to see them bail, but ANTS seems to have been in decline for a lot longer than the Globe made it sound. My cousin was there in the 70s and he asserts they had already been in decline financially for some time even then. They lived for decades off an endowment that was apparently once quite impressive. When that had been burned off, they lived by parceling off their land, one piece to the Hebrew school, another to that hideous development that previous posters have trashed (it really is butt-ugly). Now they're taking one last stab at living off this piece of land in the only way left. I have no idea what their next fall back will be.

Absolutely beautiful spot, my wife and I walk up there often.

 

[FK4]

I went to Bowen school and played in the woods that became that awful, awful development. Shame on Newton for that hideous thing. I'm glad to hear some outrage about, even though it's been years now since they built it.

 

[West]

I went to Bowen school and played in the woods that became that awful, awful development. Shame on Newton for that hideous thing. I'm glad to hear some outrage about, even though it's been years now since they built it.

My daughters were going to Bowen while it went up. There was plenty of outrage at the time, but too much of it went into trying to prevent anything at all, and none into trying to force better design. I had all the sympathy for my kids and other kids losing their play woods, but I would have been all for a well designed boost to the housing stock. Instead we got the worst dreck imaginable. I toured one once at an open house. Just as bland inside as out. That open house visit was the real estate equivalent of rubbernecking a bad accident on the highway: I hate to admit I did it, but I couldn't resist doing it, so I gotta admit I did it. At least no one died.

 

[bigeman312]

I went to Hebrew School there! I'll echo that it is a beautiful campus.

 

[statler]

There are plenty of uses the residents of Newton will allow for this area.

a. Turn it into a public park.
b. Turn it into a public park.
c. Turn it into a public park.
d. Any combination of a, b and/or c.

 

[atlantaden]

Sadly, it's towns like Newton and many, many others that are the main cause of the housing shortage\housing unaffordability in the Boston metro area. Unless the towns loosen up their zoning restrictions a bit and allow for zero-lot line housing/multi family housing the cost and shortage of housing is only going to get worse.

 

[bigeman312]

^I agree. But this is not where the battle should be fought. There are transit-oriented lots in historic village centers that are a complete waste of land and are not being redeveloped into dense housing. NIMBYs fight to block these desperately needed projects.

Prime example #1: The Newton Centre parking lot. Multi-story residential/commercial above-ground floor retail, with a garage component would be a much better use of land and help with the housing shortage.
Same with the Austin Street parking lot whose redevelopment has met criticism from NIMBYs.
Same with the Waban parking lot that could definitely be Woodland-ified.

The list goes on-and-on. This is not where the battle should be fought though. This is not the wasted opportunity that is pushing the housing shortage.

 

[Equilibria]

^I agree. But this is not where the battle should be fought. There are transit-oriented lots in historic village centers that are a complete waste of land and are not being redeveloped into dense housing. NIMBYs fight to block these desperately needed projects.

Prime example #1: The Newton Centre parking lot. Multi-story residential/commercial above-ground floor retail, with a garage component would be a much better use of land and help with the housing shortage.
Same with the Austin Street parking lot whose redevelopment has met criticism from NIMBYs.
Same with the Waban parking lot that could definitely be Woodland-ified.

The list goes on-and-on. This is not where the battle should be fought though. This is not the wasted opportunity that is pushing the housing shortage.

FWIW (and as you know, probably), Austin St. will probably be approved, without much of a reduction in units from when it was first proposed. That's a big accomplishment, given the number of people who have dedicated their very being to killing it. The next problem is getting the Shaw's owners across the street to build on their site.

The Newton Centre parking lot has been a drama for decades. Every plan that gets proposed dies when the City can't figure out how to replace the parking. Waban's lot is too small to both replace the parking (which is filled daily) and build something, though I suppose you could put 3 floors on top of 2 parking decks. That would look grotesque, though.

Actually, I think this site is a pretty good place to fight this battle. There's a chance to house a lot of people up there, walking distance from the train. The problem will be the same as it always is - the eternal NIMBY specter of school crowding. The reason that every damn project in the city has to be for seniors (that and the higher rent that the wealthy elderly will pay). What makes that argument stupid in Newton is that it has just started a ten-year school building plan, and all the new buildings can be designed with excess capacity.

The opportunities for TOD density in Newton are really at Riverside, Newtonville, the Newton Center parking lot, and ANTS. Needham Street gets opened up with a GL extension. Everything else would require taking houses. It doesn't help things that rapid transit in Newton serves the richer, less-dense areas, while the dense northern half gets shanked by Commuter Rail.

 

[West]

^I agree. But this is not where the battle should be fought. There are transit-oriented lots in historic village centers that are a complete waste of land and are not being redeveloped into dense housing. NIMBYs fight to block these desperately needed projects.

Prime example #1: The Newton Centre parking lot. Multi-story residential/commercial above-ground floor retail, with a garage component would be a much better use of land and help with the housing shortage.
Same with the Austin Street parking lot whose redevelopment has met criticism from NIMBYs.
Same with the Waban parking lot that could definitely be Woodland-ified.

The list goes on-and-on. This is not where the battle should be fought though. This is not the wasted opportunity that is pushing the housing shortage.

Agreed, mostly.

The more I think of this site, the more eager I am to see BC buy it and use it for grad student and junior faculty housing. A lot of it is housing and I think the Seminary was underutilizing it pretty much. I don't know occupancy but I've heard rumors it has been below 70% at least for years, if not farther. That's a lot of wasted housing space in a great location.

For BC to use every bit of the existing housing for grad students and (probably to a much lesser extent) junior faculty, would remove some degree of stress from the Alston rental market. BC could continue with the Brighton campus plans to get undergrad housing to 100%, that's well on track and could be left to finish at on the existing plan. Convert ANTS campus to grad housing. They could use a few of the admin and classroom buildings for back office functions and/or grad student housing. I think they might even have a day care space up there already, they could keep using that to supplement the massively oversubscribed Carriage House daycare down near the main campus.

The BC shuttle busses to/from Newton Campus and Main Campus could add a stop in Newton Center, and/or make a jog up and back Herrick Street.

BC using it this way would qualify under existing zoning, I think. And however much rancor there's been between Newton and BC, this use would represent less change than about anything else, and you know that change is eek!!!, SCARY!!, in the eyes of so many Newtonians.

And if I'm at all right about the dwelling units on ANTS campus being so underutilized, it would be the quickest simplest way that this site could do something beneficial for the housing situation in Alston/Brighton, and to a lesser extent, Newton (some grad students are scattered in nooks and crannies in the less expensive apartments in Newton, which yes, they do exist in some paltry numbers).

They could do all this and sneak in a conference center with guest house, while they're at it.

I need to shut up now, this all makes too much sense for BC to do it and for Newton to approve it. I'm allowed to be this cynical as the Mrs. works for BC and we live in Newton.

 

[bigeman312]

I am a big fan of urbanism and want to see more density (especially transit-oriented) in our core. So, I won't dismiss density here in NIMBY fashion. Instead, let's discuss how dense housing can be well served transportation-wise. And yes, sadly, that means cars, too.

Even the most progressively-urban proposals should have .5+ parking spots per unit out there. There will need to be more road capacity accessing this sight than Herrick Rd. Do you think it's feasible to build a road connection to Cypress and another to Langley? If so, that would be huge help. Otherwise, you have only a single, small, residential street serving this development on what amounts to a dead end.

EDIT: West - that is an amazing idea. BC housing for this sight would be perfect!

 

[West]

I am a big fan of urbanism and want to see more density (especially transit-oriented) in our core. So, I won't dismiss density here in NIMBY fashion. Instead, let's discuss how dense housing can be well served transportation-wise. And yes, sadly, that means cars, too.

Even the most progressively-urban proposals should have .5+ parking spots per unit out there. There will need to be more road capacity accessing this sight than Herrick Rd. Do you think it's feasible to build a road connection to Cypress and another to Langley? If so, that would be huge help. Otherwise, you have only a single, small, residential street serving this development on what amounts to a dead end.

EDIT: West - that is an amazing idea. BC housing for this sight would be perfect!

Connection to Langley is right out: Langley is lined with houses all the way except for one utility easement that heads down to where Madoc Street stubs into Langley. That would be dangerously steep.

There's also a hell of a drop down to Cypress, that would be tough. You could angle down the hill dropping down as you descend southward. But the hillside engineering needed for that would mar the hill godawfully, and you'd dump traffic right onto Cypress near Bowen School. Cypress just there is a shitshow every morning during school because everybody but us and maybe five other families drive their kiddies to Bowen instead of letting them walk like kids ought to do (this is a huge pet peeve of mine). So that'd be a mess dropping a road down into that if said road carried anything at all. And it would incur wild-eyed NIMBY rage.

The idea of connection to Langley could have worked through the shitty new development to the south. There IS a little paved access roadlet that's locked off - emergency fire entrance, I think, not open to use. One of the many ways the pooch got screwed on that site. Can't do it now, all walled off with ugly shit, unless you could force open that access road. Good luck.

I like your idea but I think the ship sailed on it. I think this probably stays a cul-de-sac. Constrains the options, no doubt. But the proximity to the T and some retail and the beauty of the site are all pretty damn compelling. This is about the prettiest cul de sac development I think I've ever seen in my life. If it's fair to call it that - kind of isn't fair, its layout long predates what we usually think of when we think cul de sac development.

ETA: there IS a sidewalk that drops down to Cypress, and plenty of walkers use the utility easement to cut down to Langley though I think we're not supposed to. The Bowen kids all knew the various ways to cut from Bowen up to the ANTS campus through the woods, and they shared complex kid-legends around every rock outcropping along the way, but The Shitty Estates obliterated that.