archBOSTON Update: A New Dawn

[odurandina]

i'd like to add that the current site software is fine.
Why change what already works nearly perfectly?
Upgrade the thumbs up, cheers, emojis. They're kinda low-quality.
Like buttons are over the top, hs crap.

 

[bakgwailo]

i'd like to add that the current site software is fine.
Why change what already works nearly perfectly?
Upgrade the thumbs up, cheers, emojis. They're kinda low-quality.
Like buttons are over the top, hs crap.

Because this is an ancient piece of software that has known security vulnerabilities, and is utter shite on mobile (among other reasons).

 

[stick n move]

This is getting intense guys. "Governance", "Content Ownership", paragraphs of text.

Can we step back a bit? I know this place is a trove of knowledge and the tight-knit connection shared by our interests is what keep this place going even as Briv forgot to approve new users for years. But at the same time, we're still enthusiasts and that means can't take ourselves too seriously. Not to say writing any amount of text or being worried is inappropriate, just chill a bit.

What this means is this:

Remember what's the issues we have here.

1. We want certain members to be moderators because we trust them to help keep us in line.
2. We want someone to be an admin to act as an authority to do what is needed to some certain members, deal with bots, and approving new members.
3. We want the board to stay alive. The big fear had been that even if Briv kept up payment to the domain and hosting, we know the software is getting increasing old and we saw what that lead a few weeks ago.

The above is not super complicated. Just appoint a few guys to a few roles to moderate and administrate. And someone to keep maintaining the lights on. Beyond that, it is just us continuing what we've been doing after all these years.


Meanwhile we have Edward. From the quick look at UrbanToronto which he keeps referring, my guess I'm pretty sure his plan is this:

1. Make the "Main page" to not just be a link to the forum, but a full architecture and urban planning website like that website.
2. Use this existing forum as a way to have an established community for the forum of the website so it won't be dead on arrival.


That sounds like that if he keeps to that, he should be pretty laissez faire with the forum. Which is basically what we want. Not governance documents, some list of official rules of conduct we now have to live by, official policies on content ownership, or some essay timeline-ing his plan (which I got a feeling he probably doesn't have that planned out). We didn't have that stuff before when we join archboston, we've been fine. The real thing we want to avoid his place getting messed up because he puts in ads (I mean the far more painful ones), banning people for non-trolling reasons, or really messing up how we posts. That doesn't require all that aforementioned stuff, just leaving us alone/joining our community while keeping the lights all maintained.

Agreed. Nothing has even happened yet good or bad so we dont need to sound the alarms just yet. I know theres left over angst towards Briv, but its in the past now. I know he pissed a lot of people off but its over, so no use dwelling on it. Thats just the way it is.

Also as Ive said its us who make the site, so its been great even in spite of the last owners apathy. Skyrise may not even know what he wants to do with the site yet. This is a die hard community. Nothing has changed yet so lets slow down, we have plenty of time to get this right. Lets try to start off on the right foot this time, itll be better for everyone.

 

[palindrome]

Agreed.

Seconded.

 

[tysmith95]

Any reason why Statler is no longer mod?

He was a good mod, I think. It's fine if he wants to step down, but I was just wondering.

 

[millerm277]

i'd like to add that the current site software is fine.
Why change what already works nearly perfectly?
Upgrade the thumbs up, cheers, emojis. They're kinda low-quality.
Like buttons are over the top, hs crap.

vB 3.7.3 was released 8/26/08, is long out of support, and has huge security vulnerabilities.

The software has to be upgraded at least to a modern version of vB unless you want it to be full of foreign spam one day or otherwise hacked.

 

[commuter guy]

I expect a user agreement and terms of use will be coming soon to archboston given it exists on the Toronto site. The issue that Beton Brut raises is that for some contributors retaining ownership over posted content and photographs is important. If the community loses or fails to attract contributors or photographers because they are unable to retain control of content then the community overall loses. The community should be aware of this, even if they personally don't care about the ownership of their own postings. I believe there is a way to accommodate, think of photo sharing social media sites, where photographers give permission to use their photo for viewing on the site, but not to repost outside the site or sell etc.

 

[Plen-T-Pak]

Lurker here. It's over. Make a clean break and find a new home. You want the person in charge to care deeply about the same things that keep you all hanging around. Otherwise the top priority will *always* be the ad revenue and not the community. I personally don't care that the forum is shit on mobile, outdated, and lacks "like" buttons.

Quit making demands and grow something new. It will be fine.

 

[datadyne007]

Any reason why Statler is no longer mod?

He was a good mod, I think. It's fine if he wants to step down, but I was just wondering.

See post 53:

Hey.

My apologies. I am still around. That is me you see lurking.

I'm not going to get into specific various reasons for the radio silence, but it was entirely my choice and it wasn't entirely related to aB. It was, of course, a shitty decision and I managed to do it at the worst possible time, but it was mine alone.

I'm probably just going to continue to lurk for a while, I'm not sure I have anything of value to add to the forum right now (if I ever did).

I'm sorry for the confusion and concern.

 

[Equilibria]

Agreed. Nothing has even happened yet good or bad so we dont need to sound the alarms just yet.

That's the point. Nothing has happened. For the past ten years. It would have been easy and fast to appoint mods and upgrade the software a week ago. Nothing has happened.

I'm totally with the people who say the drama is silly. If we really feel that way, let's build a different site where this isn't an issue and we can all just do what we come here to do.

 

[HenryAlan]

I expect a user agreement and terms of use will be coming soon to archboston given it exists on the Toronto site. The issue that Beton Brut raises is that for some contributors retaining ownership over posted content and photographs is important. If the community loses or fails to attract contributors or photographers because they are unable to retain control of content then the community overall loses. The community should be aware of this, even if they personally don't care about the ownership of their own postings. I believe there is a way to accommodate, think of photo sharing social media sites, where photographers give permission to use their photo for viewing on the site, but not to repost outside the site or sell etc.

Exactly this. Content ownership matters to some if not all of us. I would hate to lose some of the great pictures and thought provoking words due to a poorly designed ToS. None of this is to imply that Skyrise has indicated he plans to try owning our words and images. But it's important to make it clear that we don't think he should. Many will walk if he decides to go that route, so I want to continue articulating this point until we get a definitive statement from him.

 

[BeeLine]

Exactly this. Content ownership matters to some if not all of us. I would hate to lose some of the great pictures and thought provoking words due to a poorly designed ToS. None of this is to imply that Skyrise has indicated he plans to try owning our words and images. But it's important to make it clear that we don't think he should. Many will walk if he decides to go that route, so I want to continue articulating this point until we get a definitive statement from him.

!00% Agree!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Beton Brut]

Thank you for your thoughts, everyone.

And commuter guy, I really appreciate your even-handed fleshing-out of my content ownership concerns by pointing to existing platforms like Flickr.

And to better clarify my awkward metaphor in yesterday afternoon's post, the site might be "the house," but the people and content make it "a home."

 

[ulrichomega]

Urban Toronto currently has a pretty standard "You give us the rights to show your content, but you keep the copyright" in its user terms. Given that they didn't even bother to fill out the "{age}" field in the thing, I don't think they're going to create anything more intrusive.

I do want to reiterate that I have a level of skepticism here, but I haven't seen any reason to be mistrustful yet. SkyriseCities has been a bit cagey on answering questions, yes. But I don't think we've seen anything malicious yet (arguably other than banning theMagicMan, which almost everyone wanted anyway).

 

[Justin7]

If your trying to ask for things you need to be more specific as well. The people that have questions, ask direct questions, so we can get direct answers. If you want to know whats going to happen with our data, ask exactly that. The metaphors leave lots of room for indirectness and lack of clarity. If people wanna get direct answers, ask direct questions, say exactly what you mean in as few words and as directly as possible. Then if the questions are dodged its clear and obvious.

I did just this. Beton even linked directly to the post in the post you are responding to. The questions have been ignored.

Hes 1 billion % in the right to delete that thread from this forum... if he wanted to. If you want a different site then create it and build it from the ground up, simple as that, but he doesnt “have” to allow his forum to be where the plans are hatched. Frankly as a business owner it would be bad business to allow it. No one in their right mind would offer up their own site as a way for people to plan how to get everyone to bail and go to another site.

You keep alluding to the fact that briv was "a business owner," but the reality is that until this forum was sold it was never in any way a business. It was a community. There is a massive difference. That is the change that some people seem to be missing. Thus far we have seen the addition of advertising, and I understand that most people don't seem to be bothered by this. Hell, I wouldn't even know they were there if someone didn't send me a screenshot. They are however symbolic that this is no longer a simple community but a profit center. This change comes with consequences.

This is getting intense guys. "Governance", "Content Ownership", paragraphs of text.

Can we step back a bit? I know this place is a trove of knowledge and the tight-knit connection shared by our interests is what keep this place going even as Briv forgot to approve new users for years. But at the same time, we're still enthusiasts and that means can't take ourselves too seriously. Not to say writing any amount of text or being worried is inappropriate, just chill a bit.

What this means is this:

Remember what's the issues we have here.

1. We want certain members to be moderators because we trust them to help keep us in line.
2. We want someone to be an admin to act as an authority to do what is needed to some certain members, deal with bots, and approving new members.
3. We want the board to stay alive. The big fear had been that even if Briv kept up payment to the domain and hosting, we know the software is getting increasing old and we saw what that lead a few weeks ago.

The above is not super complicated. Just appoint a few guys to a few roles to moderate and administrate. And someone to keep maintaining the lights on. Beyond that, it is just us continuing what we've been doing after all these years.


Meanwhile we have Edward. From the quick look at UrbanToronto which he keeps referring, my guess I'm pretty sure his plan is this:

1. Make the "Main page" to not just be a link to the forum, but a full architecture and urban planning website like that website.
2. Use this existing forum as a way to have an established community for the forum of the website so it won't be dead on arrival.


That sounds like that if he keeps to that, he should be pretty laissez faire with the forum. Which is basically what we want. Not governance documents, some list of official rules of conduct we now have to live by, official policies on content ownership, or some essay timeline-ing his plan (which I got a feeling he probably doesn't have that planned out). We didn't have that stuff before when we join archboston, we've been fine. The real thing we want to avoid his place getting messed up because he puts in ads (I mean the far more painful ones), banning people for non-trolling reasons, or really messing up how we posts. That doesn't require all that aforementioned stuff, just leaving us alone/joining our community while keeping the lights all maintained.

You seem to lay out what is important to you, and some others have agreed. That's fine, but you need to understand that you don't get to decide what is important to other people. As some have mentioned, content ownership is extremely important, and personally I strongly believe that a community should be run by the community and not some guy from Toronto looking to turn a profit. You can make assumptions about what his plan is, but Edward's refusal to answer some straight forward questions is concerning.

Urban Toronto currently has a pretty standard "You give us the rights to show your content, but you keep the copyright" in its user terms. Given that they didn't even bother to fill out the "{age}" field in the thing, I don't think they're going to create anything more intrusive.

Where do you see this? I get a 404 when I follow the "content" link.

That's the point. Nothing has happened. For the past ten years. It would have been easy and fast to appoint mods and upgrade the software a week ago. Nothing has happened.

I'm totally with the people who say the drama is silly. If we really feel that way, let's build a different site where this isn't an issue and we can all just do what we come here to do.

I'm not really seeing much drama. People are just trying to get an idea of where things are heading before making a decision. Building a new site is very much in the cards, but splitting the community is a major concern. If not for that it would have been done a long time ago. We are trying to give Edward ample time to answer, but I definitely expected a more thorough level of engagement on his part considering the circumstances.

 

[Equilibria]

I'm not really seeing much drama. People are just trying to get an idea of where things are heading before making a decision. Building a new site is very much in the cards, but splitting the community is a major concern. If not for that it would have been done a long time ago. We are trying to give Edward ample time to answer, but I definitely expected a more thorough level of engagement on his part considering the circumstances.

I think the argument people are making is that in-depth discussion on the future of aB in dramatic sounding terms like "content ownership" or emotional terms like "selling the community" is inappropriate for the casual and wonky nature of the forum. They see the site outside of this thread carrying on like normal and believe that there's no problem here.

And there may not be. Edward might become an absentee owner for a decade just like Briv was, turned off by the fact that we questioned his intentions (I'd call that the worst-case scenario). That might sound fine to some people, but it doesn't to me, because this site is not fully-functioned for a modern forum. Edward is the only person who can appoint mods, and he seems to be playing out string on that process, referring everything to PMs (Beton has said that Edward has not yet asked him - I'm not sure about others). It could be so much better, and if we let this play on we might just be committing to more years of the same.

If it sounds like I'm being hard on you, Edward, I don't want to be. Please engage. Answer questions. Appoint mods. Follow through. The only reason you're hearing frustration from people is that they aren't getting what should be easy answers. I reiterate: the best outcome here is that this site remains active and improves. I and others feel like we're talking into a void, and unfortunately we've become used to that. I'm sick of it. It's unnecessary.

For aB members, I think that the discussion might be benefited by the creation of an alternative. We might in some sense "split the community", but in reality people can be and are members of many similar forums. It would have been easier back when Statler could just lock all the threads and force the shift, but it's okay if the process is gradual.

You're the expert, Justin, but I don't think people realize what they're missing and how easy a better forum really is.

 

[JohnAKeith]

Sorry if I missed this part but what about banned members? I think anyone / everyone should be allowed back on, with new expulsions happening after that. (Or, people can just block those people, as they should have already done.)

I mean, new owner, new rules, no?

 

[Equilibria]

Sorry if I missed this part but what about banned members? I think anyone / everyone should be allowed back on, with new expulsions happening after that. (Or, people can just block those people, as they should have already done.)

I mean, new owner, new rules, no?

I don't know if you're serious... Statler laid out some time ago who has been banned. It's basically a bunch of accounts made to shill things, lots of spam accounts, and Rifle/MagicMan in the past decade.

 

[ulrichomega]

Where do you see this? I get a 404 when I follow the "content" link.

Can't take a screenshot now, but if you try to register as a user and click the "Terms and Rules" link it expands out to a modest set of terms. Honestly one of the shorter ones I've seen on a site. SkyriseCities seems to have a similar one. The content link is probably just something from the site template that never got filled in properly.

 

[Justin7]

Can't take a screenshot now, but if you try to register as a user and click the "Terms and Rules" link it expands out to a modest set of terms. Honestly one of the shorter ones I've seen on a site. SkyriseCities seems to have a similar one. The content link is probably just something from the site template that never got filled in properly.

Thank you. Here they are. I would absolutely not be ok with this coming to archBoston. (Note: I did not strip the "Contact US" html tags so that you can see that it is a dead link so don't bother trying to contact them. Emphasis mine.)

The providers ("we", "us", "our") of the service provided by this web site ("Service") are not responsible for any user-generated content and accounts. Content submitted express the views of their author only.

This Service is only available to users who are at least {age} years old. If you are younger than this, please do not register for this Service. If you register for this Service, you represent that you are this age or older.

All content you submit, upload, or otherwise make available to the Service ("Content") may be reviewed by staff members. All Content you submit or upload may be sent to third-party verification services (including, but not limited to, spam prevention services). Do not submit any Content that you consider to be private or confidential.

You agree to not use the Service to submit or link to any Content which is defamatory, abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains adult or objectionable content, contains personal information of others, risks copyright infringement, encourages unlawful activity, or otherwise violates any laws. You are entirely responsible for the content of, and any harm resulting from, that Content or your conduct.

We may remove or modify any Content submitted at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice. Requests for Content to be removed or modified will be undertaken only at our discretion. We may terminate your access to all or any part of the Service at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice.

You are granting us with a non-exclusive, permanent, irrevocable, unlimited license to use, publish, or re-publish your Content in connection with the Service. You retain copyright over the Content.

These terms may be changed at any time without notice.

If you do not agree with these terms, please do not register or use the Service. Use of the Service constitutes acceptance of these terms. If you wish to close your account, please <a href="{contactUrl}">contact us</a>.

Also, I hope no one here is younger than {age} or you'll need to leave.