[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

[timsox6]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Would throwing an architectural spire on one of the towers be a problem for the FAA? I can't imagine it would mess with radar, at least not as much as if a whole tower was up there.

 

[type001]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Why should Don pay for the shadow study. Not his problem if others want to make a big deal about it.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Why should Don pay for the shadow study. Not his problem if others want to make a big deal about it.

BRA requirements.

Whether or not a project comes within the purview of the MEPA review requirements, the BRA may request all or several of the environmental analyses listed below. The extent of analyses required depends on the size, location, and complexity of the project as defined in the scoping determination issued during Article 80 review.

[Article 80 Scoping. Large Project Review applies to virtually all major projects in Boston, usually defined as projects that add at least 50,000 square feet of gross floor area or rehabilitate at least 100,000 square feet of gross floor area. Through Large Project Review, the BRA, guided by comments from the public, examines a project’s impacts on its immediate surroundings and the city as a whole. Depending on the project’s size, location, and use, the review may address the project’s impacts in a variety of areas, including traffic and parking, environmental protection (wind, shadow, noise, etc.), the design character of the area, historic buildings, infrastructure systems (water, sewer, etc.), and employment. Based on the outcome of the review, the BRA may require the developer to modify the project’s size, mass, or design or take other measures to mitigate anticipated impacts.]

.....

a. Shadow analysis may be required for existing (no-build) and build conditions for the hours of 9:00 a.m., 12:00 noon, and 3:00 p.m. for the vernal equinox, summer solstice, autumnal equinox, and winter solstice and for 6:00 p.m. in the summer and fall. In addition, on a case-by-case basis, analysis for other times of day (e.g., 10:00 a.m.) may be required

b. Shadow analysis shall be conducted using the Sun Altitude/Azimuth Table (see Appendix 6)

c. The shadow impact analysis must include net new shadows as well as existing shadows; net new shadows shall have a clear graphic distinction. For purposed of clarity, new shadows should be shown in a dark, contrasting tone distinguishable from existing shadows

d. Shadow analysis must show the incremental effects of the proposed development on existing and proposed public open spaces and pedestrian areas (including transit stops), including, but not limited to, sidewalks and pedestrian walkways adjacent to and in the vicinity of the proposed project and parks, plazas, and other open space areas. The analysis must clearly label all streets, vehicular paths, public open spaces, and pedestrian areas adjacent to and in the vicinity of the proposed project area. A North arrow shall be provided on all figures.

e. Additional shadow analysis may be required depending on the particular circumstances or physical characteristics of the project site,

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I feel that the shadows shouldn't really be an issue since most of the shadows will be over the water...who cares if for 5 min there's a shadow on long wharf in the morning...there's nothing there besides an empty shell of a plaza and bums anyway. (Wish docs could go there)

All parts of Long Wharf is in Chiofaro's shadows from an hour to several hours between noon to 5 PM on an October afternoon

The BRA is stating, as a general principle, that they want to reduce potential shadows during the cooler months in Boston, March-April, September-October. The BRA believes that without solar warmth, public areas in Boston become unattractive from a pedestrian experience standpoint during those months.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

It seems to be that the economics of this site, such as they are require these towers to be fatties. Given that the Harbor Towers have an easement on the parking garage, any project must maintain their property. In order to make burying a parking garage underwater in the harbor worth the investment, the towers need a certain sq footage of rentable space.The FAA height restrictions limit how high the towers can go. The shorter they get the fatter they get, and they're already REALLY fat to make up the costs of the garage. Not to mention that it seems like Chiofaro won't get the height he wants, meaning they're going to be shorter and fatter. Is that generally right, or am I off base here?


I know a lot of folks here are praising the design of these towers, so far as we can tell based on the few glamorous renderings, but really? We want two hulking, fat towers right on the waterfront? Tall and slim towers would be great, but these things have enough bulk to make the Harbor Towers look petit. I won't be sad if this plan goes down in flames.

 

[coleslaw]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Fat towers have a lot of density; its not completely a bad thing. Density is good in so many ways. maybe they do not look the best but fat towers aren't the worst thing that could happen by far. It would be 100 fold better than the garage.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Ugh. I guess I prefer fat towers to be surrounded by other tall buildings to blunt their impact, like the BoA tower. These will be THE feature on the Boston waterfront.

 

[type001]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I'm really totally OK with that.

 

[KentXie]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

If the glass material is the same as the BOA tower in NYC then yes I'm totally okay with it as well. Otherwise, if they turn out like the glass side of the Kensington Tower, let it die.

 

[Jescobar86]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

A fat tower is better than that garage, actually anything is better than that eye sores

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

The residents of Harbor Towers, i.e., the condo association, have hired a professor from Northeastern, George Thrush, to review Chiofaro's design proposals, and Colliers International to review his cost structure.

Excerpts from the BRA presentation.

Avoid a scale of buildings and a pattern of landscape designs that adversely affect the wind, shadow, and other conditions of the ground level environment, and public circulation patterns within and to areas of water dependent activity

Primary state tidelands objectives
• Buildings have a condensed footprint and are relatively modest in size, to accommodate sufficient open space and minimize impacts of wind & shadow Chapter 91 requires one square foot of open space on-site for every square foot of building footprint
• Harbor Garage Parcel is approx. 58,000 SF
• Chapter 91-compliant scenario would require 50% open space, or approx. 29,000 SF
• Past MHPs & DEP define Open Space as clear to the sky
• Under that definition, 0% of the proposed development is open space…
• But other approaches could be developed based on the MHPAC’s priorities.

Chapter 91/MHP Open Space and covered public spaces are not the same.
• Based on prior MHPs and state policies, covered public spaces have not been used as Offsets for Building Footprint.
• However, covered public spaces may be used in an MHP to:
> Enhance the public waterfront experience
> Implement state tidelands policy objectives
> Offset other Substitute Provisions

Ch. 91 allows 55 feet high within 100 feet of the project shoreline, stepping up one foot for every two feet further back from the shoreline.
• Parcel maximum height on the seaward edge is 55’ stepping up to approx. 150’ along Atlantic Avenue

Shadows are calculated based on the highest occupiable floor (582’ and 485’. Total height is 615’ and 538’)

An MHP “…must specify alternative height limits and other requirements that ensure that, in general, new or expanded buildings for nonwater-dependent use will be relatively modest in size, in order that wind, shadow and other conditions of the ground level environment will be conducive to water-dependent activity and public access associated therewith, as appropriate for the harbor in question”

[For the BRA]
“Our greatest concern is the shadows of longer duration, as these can have a significant impact on the pedestrian environment…. Accordingly we focused our attention on those areas of the shadow protection zone that are in shadow more than one hour each day.”

In Boston the sun’s access is most important in the shoulder seasons of spring and fall, when radiation from the sun is capable of compensating for cool air temperatures.

• BRA determined that it is more appropriate to base sun/shadow standards at the end of what are traditionally considered the “outdoor months”, when late afternoon daylight is still present and prior to the end of daylight savings time.

Other than the shadow criteria, the above specifications and requirements that apply to any Harbor Garage development are those of the Commonwealth, not the city of Boston.

A second read-through of the presentation indicates to me that mid-day and/or afternoon shadows from any building built on the Harbor Garage site will not be allowed to reach Long Wharf, nor the Greenway, north of State St, and certainly not near the carousel.

The presentation includes a shadow study for a Chapter 91 compliant building, which is a max of 150 feet. Extrapolating from that study, and guesstimating, the allowed height might be 250-300 feet. Higher than that and the shadows probably reach the 'Walk to the Sea'.

I doubt that mid-day or afternoon shadows from Harbor Towers, because of their relative position on the parcel, reach 'Walk to the Sea', and the Chapter 91 shadow study suggests they do not.

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I wonder if anything great will ever be built again in Boston?

I'm starting to lean towards no. Just buildings of varying shades of 'acceptable'.

 

[shmessy]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I wonder if anything great will ever be built again in Boston?

I'm starting to lean towards no. Just buildings of varying shades of 'acceptable'.

Don't worry. The demographic shift won't take long.

The Suburbanists are dying off.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I wonder if anything great will ever be built again in Boston?

I'm starting to lean towards no. Just buildings of varying shades of 'acceptable'.

Boston Flower Mart, building and land, has a current offer of $7 million an acre. Seven years ago, Chiofaro paid $125 million an acre for the Harbor Garage, building and land, constrained by significant easements. !8x more than Flower Mart.. Land prices in Manhattan suitable for luxury residential were about $35 million an acre last year.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I'm really totally OK with that.

Clearly many here are.

If the glass material is the same as the BOA tower in NYC then yes I'm totally okay with it as well. Otherwise, if they turn out like the glass side of the Kensington Tower, let it die.

Man, I don't like the BoA Tower by Bryant Park either... it would be even worse on the NYC riverfront...

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Boston Flower Mart, building and land, has a current offer of $7 million an acre. Seven years ago, Chiofaro paid $125 million an acre for the Harbor Garage, building and land, constrained by significant easements. !8x more than Flower Mart.. Land prices in Manhattan suitable for luxury residential were about $35 million an acre last year.

I really don't understand your logic in business.
But seriously:
How much does the Flower Mart generate each year?
How much does Harbor Garage generate each year?
That is the difference between overpaying for an operating business along with the acquisition of the land.
1400 Parking spots---The city is losing supply fast in parking especially with Seaport getting development.

I actually think Chiofaro got a bargain. If Chiofaro wanted--- he could issue 99 year leases along with a maintaince fee to the garage each month to really screw the city.

Now the question is how much would people pay for their own parking spots in the city that lacks supply?

I can understand if you don't like Chiofaro and his development that's fine. But basic economics says this guy is cleaning up.

I parked in the city for 1 hour it cost 25 dollars.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I really don't understand your logic in business.
But seriously:
How much does the Flower Mart generate each year?
How much does Harbor Garage generate each year?
That is the difference between overpaying for an operating business along with the acquisition of the land.
1400 Parking spots---The city is losing supply fast in parking especially with Seaport getting development.

I actually think Chiofaro got a bargain. If Chiofaro wanted--- he could issue 99 year leases along with a maintaince fee to the garage each month to really screw the city.

Now the question is how much would people pay for their own parking spots in the city that lacks supply?

I can understand if you don't like Chiofaro and his development that's fine. But basic economics says this guy is cleaning up.

I parked in the city for 1 hour it cost 25 dollars.

Minimum gross income for the Flower Market is $3.5 million. Net income after taxes, maintenance, utilities might be $2.0-2.5 million.

Boston Common garage had $7.2 million in net income last year, but did not have expenses for taxes or interest expense. About 1,400 spaces, average revenue per space per day is a bit over $22.

Harbor Garage's net income is probably a fourth of the Common garage, which would be about the same as the Flower Mart. (IIRC, Chiofaro has said he pays $2 million in property taxes.)

Chiofaro claims the cost of the new garage would be $75 million, so his cost for land, the existing garage, and a new replacement garage is up to $230 million. Which makes the economics of his project even more ridiculous.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

1400 hundred parking spots selling for modest 150K===210Million. Not including Retail spots

He got a good deal especially knowing the location. Unless the auto industry invents flying cars or cars that can be compacted into a suitcase like the Jetson's.

Like I said you don't have to like Chiofaro or his development but Harbor Garage has a lot of value to any investor.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

1400 hundred parking spots selling for modest 150K===210Million. Not including Retail spots

He got a good deal especially knowing the location. Unless the auto industry invents flying cars or cars that can be compacted into a suitcase like the Jetson's.

Like I said you don't have to like Chiofaro or his development but Harbor Garage has a lot of value to any investor.

Maybe Don will give you a discount, reduce the price to $149,000.

We won't get into time value of money calculations with respect to the 1,400 lucky people in Boston who will buy a space in the Harbor Garage for $150,000, to which is added a yearly assessment for maintenance, utilities and services (e.g., attendant), and taxes.

I am sure you can work the time value of money calculations, but for a baseline, a monthly pass for a 24/7 space at the Common Garage costs $4.500 a year.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Maybe Don will give you a discount, reduce the price to $149,000.

We won't get into time value of money calculations with respect to the 1,400 lucky people in Boston who will buy a space in the Harbor Garage for $150,000, to which is added a yearly assessment for maintenance, utilities and services (e.g., attendant), and taxes.

I am sure you can work the time value of money calculations, but for a baseline, a monthly pass for a 24/7 space at the Common Garage costs $4.500 a year.

And $4,500 a year * 99 year lease is $445,500 per spot. And I said offer 150,000 a spot for a 99 year lease.

Its a good investment like I said not included future inflation and lack of supply in parking in the city.