[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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This isn't an empty lot nor a dilapidated, condemned structure (like the Winthrop garage). The aquarium garage generates a lot of revenue today, as-is. Tearing down the garage and burying it costs a fortune in construction and in lost revenue during construction. The new underground garage will produce the same exact revenue as the concrete hulk does today. So before you build anything that adds value to the site you are X millions of dollars in the hole.

Whatever building goes on top of the new garage has to not only pay for itself with decent ROI, it has to absorb all the costs of demolition, re-construction, and lost revenue of the garage. That is a tall order (sorry, I couldn't resist).

All good points, and the last thing deserves a rim shot.

I think Chiofaro and Prudential simply overpaid for the property back in 2007. There was a hell of a lot of overpaying for real estate going on in 2007 as many of us recall all too well [shudder]. It's hard to say how much they overpaid: nearly all assets classes went into bubble mode by 2007, but then there's also the screwy development process is Boston that is so based on mayor-schmoozing, especially in the Menino era. So some of it was market-based overpayment and some of it political-based overpayment. But when one group gets smacked down repeatedly due to the size/scope of their proposals, and is endlessly complaining that the numbers don't work, even when they're into the post-Menino regime, at some point it becomes clear: they paid too much at acquisition. And the quite solid ongoing revenues in the as-is condition don't make up for that fact, at least not enough to redevelop it, for the reasons fattony describes above.

But it might be that the numbers - 600 ft vertical & 900K sq ft area - work well enough (if not great) for Prudential, but not enough for Chiofaro to get his ROI, too. (Chiofaro is very probably in the first tranche of risk, with Prudential much less exposed than him.) If so, then it makes sense for Prudential to go hear it from the BRA / City directly rather than through the filter of the guy who's going to get crushed.

This article does not say who reached out to whom in the BRA - Prudential conversation. But I would guess it was Prudential who reached out. They'd probably like to hear, without a filter, the BRA / City tell them, more or less, "If you and/or Chiofaro overpaid and can't make the numbers work, we're not going to fix that for you. You can go to 600 ft of height and 900K sq ft of area. Maybe we'll allow some flex on the parking part, maybe not. But those are the basic numbers. If you can't make that work for what you paid, then face your choices: a) develop it at 600/900K for a lower than hoped-for ROI, b) keep running it as a garage while waiting for burn off of the HT parking easement (but watch out for the ongoing concrete decay!), or c) sell it and take whatever the hit turns out to be for having overpaid in 2007." Or, more bluntly, fish or cut bait, but quit asking for more from the City either way.

If that's where the current mayor has drawn the line, and those numbers sort of work OK for Prudential but not at all for Chiofaro, then Prudential really needs to get that face to face from the BRA / Mayor, without Chiofaro in the room. Then they can go back to their office and decide if Don is really headed under the bus.

Prudential has to be worried about missing this cycle, and likely is worried that Chiofaro can't / won't be able to come to terms with the situation in time, given how much more exposed he is to the overpayment back in 2007.

I admit, this is all speculative, but it fits the available evidence.
 
How can a 600 foot tower and nearly a million square feet not be enough for Don here? Does he really want to go that much higher/bigger?

Reading the Globe article, it appears that Chiofaro has very little skin in the game. If so, he needs a big development before he would start seeing a significant payout from his small stake. Thus his apparent resistance to any project that would result in most of the financial reward going to Prudential, and giving very little to him. But that's the consequence of his having little equity in / leverage from IP.
 
All good points, and the last thing deserves a rim shot.

I think Chiofaro and Prudential simply overpaid for the property back in 2007. There was a hell of a lot of overpaying for real estate going on in 2007 as many of us recall all too well [shudder]. It's hard to say how much they overpaid: nearly all assets classes went into bubble mode by 2007, but then there's also the screwy development process is Boston that is so based on mayor-schmoozing, especially in the Menino era. So some of it was market-based overpayment and some of it political-based overpayment. But when one group gets smacked down repeatedly due to the size/scope of their proposals, and is endlessly complaining that the numbers don't work, even when they're into the post-Menino regime, at some point it becomes clear: they paid too much at acquisition. And the quite solid ongoing revenues in the as-is condition don't make up for that fact, at least not enough to redevelop it, for the reasons fattony describes above.

But it might be that the numbers - 600 ft vertical & 900K sq ft area - work well enough (if not great) for Prudential, but not enough for Chiofaro to get his ROI, too. (Chiofaro is very probably in the first tranche of risk, with Prudential much less exposed than him.) If so, then it makes sense for Prudential to go hear it from the BRA / City directly rather than through the filter of the guy who's going to get crushed.

This article does not say who reached out to whom in the BRA - Prudential conversation. But I would guess it was Prudential who reached out. They'd probably like to hear, without a filter, the BRA / City tell them, more or less, "If you and/or Chiofaro overpaid and can't make the numbers work, we're not going to fix that for you. You can go to 600 ft of height and 900K sq ft of area. Maybe we'll allow some flex on the parking part, maybe not. But those are the basic numbers. If you can't make that work for what you paid, then face your choices: a) develop it at 600/900K for a lower than hoped-for ROI, b) keep running it as a garage while waiting for burn off of the HT parking easement (but watch out for the ongoing concrete decay!), or c) sell it and take whatever the hit turns out to be for having overpaid in 2007." Or, more bluntly, fish or cut bait, but quit asking for more from the City either way.

If that's where the current mayor has drawn the line, and those numbers sort of work OK for Prudential but not at all for Chiofaro, then Prudential really needs to get that face to face from the BRA / Mayor, without Chiofaro in the room. Then they can go back to their office and decide if Don is really headed under the bus.

Prudential has to be worried about missing this cycle, and likely is worried that Chiofaro can't / won't be able to come to terms with the situation in time, given how much more exposed he is to the overpayment back in 2007.

I admit, this is all speculative, but it fits the available evidence.

My question is who is actually, politically, holding any meaningful cards in forcing this project into the smaller dimensions that the city is apparently now demanding? The Aquarium? The residents of the towers? It sounded before like Walsh really wanted something legitimately tall here, so assuming he is behind something big, what machinations are actually stopping that, behind the scenes?
 
From a height perspective the FAA is unless they get a new radar that would not be obstructed. And the oh no shadows can't fall on long wharf ever group that appears to have a lot of power. I might be wrong on the second part though.
 
Reading the Globe article, it appears that Chiofaro has very little skin in the game. If so, he needs a big development before he would start seeing a significant payout from his small stake. Thus his apparent resistance to any project that would result in most of the financial reward going to Prudential, and giving very little to him. But that's the consequence of his having little equity in / leverage from IP.

Right, though "little skin" is relative. Little skin as compared to Prudential, but that might still be a pretty penny's worth of actual cash to mere mortals like me. But as you say, there's consequences to putting in little skin compared to your backers: he probably gets 100% of the first tranche of risk before any harm comes to Prudential. Hence on a deal that's a bit marginal, his interest basically may have diverged from Prudential's to some real extent. Or maybe I should say theirs have diverged from his.
 
My question is who is actually, politically, holding any meaningful cards in forcing this project into the smaller dimensions that the city is apparently now demanding? The Aquarium? The residents of the towers? It sounded before like Walsh really wanted something legitimately tall here, so assuming he is behind something big, what machinations are actually stopping that, behind the scenes?

I'm not sure I agree with your take, in which you suggest Walsh wants something big but machinations are stopping that and forcing it into smaller dimensions.

Chiofaro has always been pressing for a huge jump up in height and area from existing zoning. Menino always said no to those bigger proposals (and yes, he was never particularly fair in how he selected projects to go or not go, I grant that). Now Walsh is accepting an increase in height and floor area over existing zoning, and has done so a bit more formally (I think) than Menino ever did for this site (someone correct me if I'm misremembering this). 600 ft and 900K sq ft is damn big, and I bet citylover94 is right that the FAA wouldn't allow for a whole lot more height. Those bigger proposals, down from which you're suggesting this has been forced by various political machinations, were just proposals by Chiofaro being scoffed at by Menino. At least, that's how I remember them. So I don't think Walsh feels he's been forced down from anything to get to his 600 / 900K. Walsh is not beholden to any proposal that Menino merely scoffed at.

I get the sense Walsh feels he's offering something quite tall and big in square footage for its context and will see it through the NIMBY fight, machinations be damned. The Prudential / Chiofaro team are seeing the closest thing to a green light they've ever gotten in eight years. And this article seems to suggest Prudential sees Walsh's numbers as close enough to a win to consider it, whereas Chiofaro from his smaller stake / first-risk tranche is seeing it as "oh shit, here comes the bus!"
 
From a height perspective the FAA is unless they get a new radar that would not be obstructed. And the oh no shadows can't fall on long wharf ever group that appears to have a lot of power. I might be wrong on the second part though.
The no new shadows on Long Wharf is the Commonwealth. Because its Chapter 91, the Commonwealth has the final say on what gets built there.

Someone who had done due diligence would have recognized the implications of Chapter 91 for this site (and its not just new shadows on Long Wharf), and discounted what he/she would pay for the garage property.
 
The Commonwealth rejected Chiofaro's original proposal six years ago.

http://northendwaterfront.com/2009/...pposes-chiofaros-harbor-garage-redevelopment/

The link to the 20 page rejection letter no longer works, but the letter was longer than Chiofaro's PNF filing, which was grossly incomplete and half-baked. As the Globe article noted, Chiofaro has never officially filed a proposal with the city. The PNF to the Commonwealth is the closest he has gotten to an official filing.
 
The no new shadows on Long Wharf is the Commonwealth. Because its Chapter 91, the Commonwealth has the final say on what gets built there.

I keep semi-forgetting this. Huge point that I ought not forget. Let's hope that in Walsh's / BRA's proposed rezoning of the site, they've done a better job of checking with the Commonwealth in advance than they did on the Olympics or the IndyCar thing. Not a real good track record on that front.

Someone who had done due diligence would have recognized the implications of Chapter 91 for this site (and its not just new shadows on Long Wharf), and discounted what he/she would pay for the garage property.

Agreed.

And I've also always wondered why anyone wanted to buy and soon thereafter develop that garage so far out in front of the Harbor Towers ' parking easement burning off. I comprehend buying it that far out to milk it for parking revenue while biding time watching the easement clock tick down; that's a profitable sort of land-banking, or maybe I should say development opportunity banking. But to buy with so much time left on that stupid easement and try to develop right off the bat? The hell with that sort of crap, on this or any other site.

Or has Prudential in fact been land-banking it in that way, while letting Chiofaro knock himself out trying to get something through sooner? Prudential's the sort of institution capable of long term plays; Chiofaro, less so.
 
West,

I think its pretty clear that Prudential didn't / won't front any money for Chiofaro for any design studies, necessary environmental / transportation studies, etc., Every iteration Chiofaro has unveiled oozes doing something on the cheap. Renderings are of one or maybe two elevations; or of the base, but not the top. I think there was one set of 3-D models, but no renderings that went with them. The city did the shadow studies. An architect hired by opponents did the massing studies. He never hired a consultant who could have told him about the potential issues with the FAA. He proposed counting land that he did not own elsewhere on the waterfront as helping satisfy the 50 percent open space requirement.

He has boasted how much net revenue the garage brings in, yet some months ago, he re-finances a five year balloon note that financed the original garage purchase with a new note with a higher principal. For all his boasts, he didn't build up any equity if he's borrowing more the second time around.

Ted Oatis died 15 months ago. I think Oatis was the level-headed pragmatist of Chiofaro's company, and with Oatis gone, there is nobody to steer / guide Chiofaro from fantasy to reality.
 
Ted Oatis died 15 months ago. I think Oatis was the level-headed pragmatist of Chiofaro's company, and with Oatis gone, there is nobody to steer / guide Chiofaro from fantasy to reality.

Wow that's pretty personal man.

If this is all about money: Then Chiofaro should just sign 99 year leases for the 1400 spots the garage has.

As somebody claimed before he paid too much for the garage: 155 Million purchase price.
Anybody that knows basic math would realize the garage is worth at least 200Million.

Bottom Line the developer has the city in CHECKMATE.


No Risk and ton of reward.
Parking spaces are GOLD in the city of Boston.
Chiofaro is sitting on priceless Fort Knox of parking- until they make flying cars.
 
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Stel, you're discounting things a little bit here... Somebody doesn't get to where chiofaro is by playin a buffoon. International Place is damned big and also essentially right on the waterfront. I don't think expecting to duplicate it was unreasonable at all, and I highly, highly, highly doubt that he honestly had no idea about the commonwealth rule or any of the other details when he made the purchase. That's ridiculous. For somebody who inherited money and has zero experience, maybe - but not this guy. Give him a little credit. Both here and on the globe comments there is a bit too much populist schadenfreude against the man... The truth is we have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. I feel bad for him, regardless if he overpaid, because menino, not chiofaro, made it so personal.

And west, menino was far worse than "not particularly fair"... We will probably never know the full extent of the inbred real estate favoritism that marked his administration and his legacy is sadly sealed with a pretty hard coat of gild by the fact that he died so quickly, making him a bit of a martyr to the cause... Maybe in 25 years when the dust is all settled we will hear a little bit more, but I doubt it. The flood of approvals in his last months exposed the bullshit for what it was. At any rate, I was more curious with the limitations on square footage than on height. I agree that 600 feet is plenty tall (though I would rather see even taller and don't care about the height - I mean, FAA restrictions aside, once you're at 600 feet another 200 makes little difference). However, I believe that a greater amount of square footage was requested by chiofaro and I don't understand why the area of space gets capped. Is it because they don't want a bulky, wide building? This is what I meant when I was talking about Walsh wanting a development that was being stymied by other forces.
 
FK4, two months ago, B&T ran an article, headlined 'Chiofaro misses the boat'. As I don't subscribe, all I can read is a snippet, but the article apparently concluded that Chiofaro had missed the current development cycle. Whether that article coincided with or led to the city bypassing Chiofaro and talking directly with Prudential, I know not.

In 2002, the city designated Chiofaro as the developer for what would be One Lincoln. Two years later, as Chiofaro had found neither tenant nor financing, the city withdrew his designation.

In 2004, Tishman Speyer (a "gang of pirates" according to Chiofaro) brought Chiofaro to his knees in bankruptcy. Prudential saved him, and took majority ownership in IP in doing so. Chiofaro (and Prudential) paid Tishman Speyer about $85 million, on top of a nearly $600 million mortgage. For Tishman Speyer, it was a 66 percent return on a $50 million upfront investment held for about nine months.

After buying the Harbor Garage, Chiofaro's first proposal for the new underground garage was to build half at a time, keeping half in operation until construction was complete. This quickly proved to be financially and technically impracticable. Chiofaro's solution was to build or buy a gigantic floating garage to be used during construction. That was short-lived as well, as he never identified where to dock it.

This was the Chiofaro track record between 2002 and 2008. Why would/should this record inspire confidence that he could pull off his big development? He never did respond to the Commonwealth's 20 page rejection letter; in fact, he ignored it.
 
Yeah, FK4, I was understating Menino's unfairness, I concede that. And I agree that he's been ... well, I'd call it beatified without justification rather than martyr to the cause, but I catch your drift and agree with it.

I don't perceive what forces are at play on Walsh's decisions. I increasingly worry that he just shoots from the hip without bothering to think a whole lot in advance.

But as for end results, I'd personally not want to see a wide bulky building there. I'd be OK with more height if the FAA and Commonwealth would allow it, but if they won't and 600 ft is the max we get, I do not see this as a tragedy by any means. Nor do I see the proposed massing as some terrible loss. If 600 feet of height and this sort of massing constrain square footage to 900K - fine.

If it all has to wait another ten years for this set of owners to bail and another cycle to play out and the easements to burn off, fine. I'm getting up in years such that I do not assume I have another ten years left myself (though I probably do). But I am extremely confident that this city will long outlast this particular parking garage. This garage is made of that classic mid-20th-century reinforced garage concrete - utter shit for quality in this climate, rotting from within at one hell of a clip. Unless we get nuked, this garage will be gone while Boston still has centuries of life ahead of it. I might not live to see the garage gone, and maybe neither will Chiofaro or Walsh, but it'll be gone. If current trends hold up, it seems pretty unlikely it gets replaced with a replica garage.

[/waxing philosophic for the night]
 
FK4, two months ago, B&T ran an article, headlined 'Chiofaro misses the boat'. As I don't subscribe, all I can read is a snippet, but the article apparently concluded that Chiofaro had missed the current development cycle. Whether that article coincided with or led to the city bypassing Chiofaro and talking directly with Prudential, I know not.

In 2002, the city designated Chiofaro as the developer for what would be One Lincoln. Two years later, as Chiofaro had found neither tenant nor financing, the city withdrew his designation.

In 2004, Tishman Speyer (a "gang of pirates" according to Chiofaro) brought Chiofaro to his knees in bankruptcy. Prudential saved him, and took majority ownership in IP in doing so. Chiofaro (and Prudential) paid Tishman Speyer about $85 million, on top of a nearly $600 million mortgage. For Tishman Speyer, it was a 66 percent return on a $50 million upfront investment held for about nine months.

After buying the Harbor Garage, Chiofaro's first proposal for the new underground garage was to build half at a time, keeping half in operation until construction was complete. This quickly proved to be financially and technically impracticable. Chiofaro's solution was to build or buy a gigantic floating garage to be used during construction. That was short-lived as well, as he never identified where to dock it.

This was the Chiofaro track record between 2002 and 2008. Why would/should this record inspire confidence that he could pull off his big development? He never did respond to the Commonwealth's 20 page rejection letter; in fact, he ignored it.

fair enough and you know more than i do... point conceded.

still, many folks are crowing about this latest failure... people who, i am sure, know few of the details you just enumerated.

Yeah, FK4, I was understating Menino's unfairness, I concede that. And I agree that he's been ... well, I'd call it beatified without justification rather than martyr to the cause, but I catch your drift and agree with it.

I don't perceive what forces are at play on Walsh's decisions. I increasingly worry that he just shoots from the hip without bothering to think a whole lot in advance.

But as for end results, I'd personally not want to see a wide bulky building there. I'd be OK with more height if the FAA and Commonwealth would allow it, but if they won't and 600 ft is the max we get, I do not see this as a tragedy by any means. Nor do I see the proposed massing as some terrible loss. If 600 feet of height and this sort of massing constrain square footage to 900K - fine.

If it all has to wait another ten years for this set of owners to bail and another cycle to play out and the easements to burn off, fine. I'm getting up in years such that I do not assume I have another ten years left myself (though I probably do). But I am extremely confident that this city will long outlast this particular parking garage. This garage is made of that classic mid-20th-century reinforced garage concrete - utter shit for quality in this climate, rotting from within at one hell of a clip. Unless we get nuked, this garage will be gone while Boston still has centuries of life ahead of it. I might not live to see the garage gone, and maybe neither will Chiofaro or Walsh, but it'll be gone. If current trends hold up, it seems pretty unlikely it gets replaced with a replica garage.

[/waxing philosophic for the night]

i like it...
yeah, im not a big walsh fan... i grudgingly conceded support to him over his proposal to revamp the BRA and on his advocacy for later hours for the T and for bars...although after the olympics and just a couple years of reading walsh-related news im not all that impressed...

i wouldnt want a giant obstructive block either... and not being an architect or dimensionally minded, i have no idea how artfully the proposed square feet versus what chiofaro wants could or would look like in their most delicately massed forms. what bothers me, though, is my own assumption which is simply an assumption, that the limits of square footage were imposed under some sort of influence that is not a positive one. now, if going over 900k sq ft means a big blob, forget it... it would just be nice to know, for once, that limitations on a development were made with clear and rational and fair intentions... what usually happens, one way or another, are limits that are imposed by the demands of neighbors and other anti-development people who winnow down something by a few hundred square feet or a floor or two... just so somebody can pretend it was a compromise... perhaps i am being too cynical.
 
This is my untutored assessment.

The lot is 57,000 square feet; the northbound lanes of the tunnel may run under or very close to that part of the lot closest to Atlantic Ave. That may impinge on burying the garage in this section, and/or anchoring any tower along the western edge of the lot. (The BRA, IIRC, placed the very thin 600 foot tower at the southwest corner of the lot.)

The lot is subject to Chapter 91, which means any new development is subject to 50 percent open space requirement.

I am not a Massachusetts lawyer, but I think its possible that if the above-ground garage is retained, then it would be grandfathered under Chapter 91, and the 50 percent open space requirement wouldn't apply. That creates a big, lot-hugging podium for whatever goes on top. Many don't like the idea of the above-ground garage remaining, no matter if its gussied up so it doesn't look like a garage.

If what goes on top is 25 floors, 13 foot height per floor, and a 30,000 sq ft floorplate, then the on-top is 750,000 sq ft, and 320 feet high (not counting penthouse). The existing garage is about 70 feet high, and IIRC, somewhere around 400,000 sq ft.

Chiofaro (or Prudential) winds up with a development that's around 400 feet high (which seems to be as high as the BRA is really interested in seeing at this site) and 1.1-1.2 million gsf counting the garage. Other than the garage podium, the profile of a 'tower(s)' with a total 30,000 sq ft floorplate would be consistent with 50 percent open space.
______________________

Two things to bear in mind: if Chiofaro is seeking all manner of tax breaks and incentives to build his project and make it financially feasible, the design is likely to be value-engineered to death. Second, any attempt to significantly weaken Chapter 91 for this project will be litigated to death.
 
I feel like it would be less risky at this point to just build on-top of the garage just like what Congress St developer is proposing.
Now do I think this would be an overall good thing for the public. Absolutely not.
The garage stays.... no open access to the water. (Just a giant wall barrier between the Greenway and the water.) This would be a disaster.

One thing I will say about the Developer he built IP and he still currently has an ownership stake so this GUY BUILDS for VALUE in the community.
Not too many people like that in todays world. I think Fallen already dumped Fan Pier.

This is probably the reason why he has not just opted to ruin the entire area and just build on-top of the garage and move to the next project.
 
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One thing I will say about the Developer he built IP and he still currently has an ownership stake so this GUY BUILDS for VALUE in the community.

So he has established his street cred in building an ugly pink skyscraper that mars the Boston skyline and he initially led with this truly terrible design for the garage:

images


(Okay, I don't think it is quite that terrible, but I am certainly not a fan)

I have no "faith" that Chiofaro has anything other than bad taste in design and enough money to pay people to tell him otherwise.

The saddest part is I think he was actually excited by that original design. I recall seeing a picture of him with a paperweight made from that design. And now people want to give him another go at a location that will redefine the city's image for decades?

I liked some of the more recent designs, but I can't help but feel this is just a bait and switch with all the grumbling about how he can't make any money on this project. This could end up as another pink elephant on the waterfront, quite literally.
 
If Chiofaro was strategic, he'd take a page out of the Government Center Garage Project.

Take a look at this angle:

don-chiofaro-boston-harbor-garage.jpg



Cut the garage in half (width wise). Build a tower above it (with 600 feet you have plenty of room to work with) and fix the outer facade of the actual garage. Make the demolished side into his winter garden/retail and create a clear path to the water.

Everyone wins (except Harbor Towers, but who cares).
 
So he has established his street cred in building an ugly pink skyscraper that mars the Boston skyline and he initially led with this truly terrible design for the garage:

images


(Okay, I don't think it is quite that terrible, but I am certainly not a fan)

I have no "faith" that Chiofaro has anything other than bad taste in design and enough money to pay people to tell him otherwise.

The saddest part is I think he was actually excited by that original design. I recall seeing a picture of him with a paperweight made from that design. And now people want to give him another go at a location that will redefine the city's image for decades?

I liked some of the more recent designs, but I can't help but feel this is just a bait and switch with all the grumbling about how he can't make any money on this project. This could end up as another pink elephant on the waterfront, quite literally.

I actually like the first design. I have said this before:

Love them or hate them.
IP has become the Symbol of Boston Skyline.
Just look at all the pictures and the postcards of Boston:

I'm assuming IP demands top rents for commercial property.

Most of the developments that are done are garbage in Boston and they are flipped like houses adding no value to the community or the city.

I don't believe the developer is trying to ruin the Greenway he is trying to bring it much needed life along with building a great city.

The Harbor Towers people will fight this to the end to their views won't be ruined and they don't care about how much value this will add to the Greenway Strip:

Concerning Traffic people are wrong: Yes their will be an increase for a period of time but the reality is if you build projects that right on the HARDRAILS which Harbor Garage is located on this will decrease traffic for the overall public over time.

Most developments that located on the hardrail stops should get a bonus on how high they want to build because this will keep people using the MBTA GRID.

Overall I feel like CHIOFARO is really not asking for much:
600FT building located in downtown on a hardrail in Boston:

There is just too much risk for Chiofaro to bury the garage without a reward in the end.

I actually agree with the Developer and feel bad for him dealing with the Aquarium & Harbor Towers and the state.
Not burying this garage is a SIN for this area.

Hopefully the developer is not forced to build on top of it.
 
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