[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

stick n move said:
they gotta move that runway a few degrees it would be so easy
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AmericanFolkLegend said:
There will be nothing easy about shifting a runway.
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Not easy: modifying the angle of 9/27 (an aviation standard configuration at airports around the world) by 10 degrees to 8/26 would be costly, require filling in part of the harbor (good luck with the permitting on this), and would put aircraft approaching from the east dangerously close to this high bluff in Winthrop, crowned by a tall water tower. In short, impossible.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I'm glad someone who actually knows something spoke up. Thanks Beton, I don't think you are wrong. As for corruption, like you said that is probably too strong a word. More likely this is just a case of someone knowing someone.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Beton Brut said:
Not easy: modifying the angle of 9/27 (an aviation standard configuration at airports around the world) by 10 degrees to 8/26 would be costly, require filling in part of the harbor (good luck with the permitting on this), and would put aircraft approaching from the east dangerously close to this high bluff in Winthrop, crowned by a tall water tower. In short, impossible.
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Well, just impossible for a private project such as this. I'm sure Menino would love to move a runway, push through permits, relocate an extremely high water tower in a town that's already head over heals for Massport, and Logan Airport in general. All for his good buddy Don... Where would the money come from anyways? That stuff don't grow on trees.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

statler said:
stellarfun, are you against this project or are you just playing devil's advocate on the FAA issue?
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I am not against the project, per se. I do think that any serious developer who decides to build a tall building near a major airport should undertake sufficient technical analyses and inquiries beforehand so that he or she understands what may be allowed, and what will not.

Perhaps Chiofaro had too many dings during his years playing football for Harvard, and he now forgets some of what due diligence is all about.
________________________________

If you are familiar with San Francisco, in 1998, a (very heavy) United 747-400 taking off from SFO for Australia, suffered a compressor stall in #3 engine. Compressor stalls are not an unusual occurrence. However, the pilot flying used ailerons and spoilers in an effort to correct rather than rudder, and turned right. The 747 cleared San Bruno mountain by less than 100 feet. And San Bruno mountain is quite a bit more distant from the end of runway 10L than any of Boston's downtown towers, existing or proposed are from the end of Logan's runways..

south_san_francisco.jpg
 
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

stellarfun said:
The runway most affected, from the standpoint of interference with radar tracking, is 15R 33L.
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Do you have any data to support this? Does Eagle Hill play a role in the interference?

stellarfun said:
Supposedly a frequent route for helicopters landing at Logan is to fly down the Charles River.
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I believe that's an established air corridor, frequently used by med-flights to MGH. Frequent overflights of the harbor could compromise the flight paths of aircraft using 4L/22R or 9/27.

stellarfun said:
It seems to me that either Chiofaro (and Prudential) bought a property without doing due diligence as to what the potential realistic height and mass could be built on such a property, or they did do due diligence and are merely gaming the process.
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How does this hypothesis fit in with the existing buildings in excess of 600' that I noted above?

I'm not trying to start a fight about this. I've no stake in Chiofaro's project, but I'd like you to put some additional context around your statement.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Beton Brut, I recall a news article of some/many months ago and it related to Massport concerns. IIRC, the radar issue was about sufficient obstruction of the signal, when combined with other tall buildings, so that the signal was blocked below a certain degree of elevation. IIRC, it was not a single tower that posed the problem, but effectivelty what amounts to a phalanx of towers that then produce a signifgicant horizontal blind spot in coverage. Chiofaro's tower was, in effect, the straw that broke the camel's back.

I am not a radar expert, but I suspect there is also feedback issues that can generate pseudo signals under certain conditions, perhaps like a halo effect; see the discussion about electromagnetic forces and the wind turbines.

IIRC, the helicopters were those flying down the Charles from the west and landing at Logan. These would be sufficiently low to perhaps be lost both visually from the tower and by radar.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^^The whole radar excuse is a force because IP is around two blocks down the street and it is 600' tall. Not to mention the other towers that are around 600' between Logan and the Charles River. If there were problems, it would have happened already.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

There is absolutely no reason that the towers cant be built atleast as tall as the federal reserve. I would inderstand if we were complaining about the south station tower being reduced because it is directly in the flight path but these towers arent and would be surrounded by even taller buildings.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Don's getting off easy at 400+ feet.

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So, when Virginia Beach most recently applied for permission to construct 18 to 20-story buildings at several locations at the resort, about two miles from the radar, Air Force and Homeland Security officials objected.

This past summer city officials were told that buildings taller than 10 stories - or about 110 feet at the Oceanfront, including near the Convention Center where a hotel is planned - would block radar and threaten homeland security.

While the city is mindful of national security, "these are real problems for Virginia Beach," said Steve Herbert, a deputy city manager.

Beach officials recently estimated that the city would lose $1.3 billion in direct and indirect tax revenue over 50 years if the FAA only allowed buildings to climb nine or 10 stories at the Oceanfront.

Unanswered questions - about how severe the loss in radar coverage would be since there are already tall buildings at the Oceanfront and whether some of the city's proposed buildings would pose less of a threat to security - remain, Herbert said.

The city is working with the state's congressmen to find a compromise with the FAA and Air Force.

Herbert has suggested moving the radar to Fort Story or Oceana's Dam Neck Annex, closer to the water, where buildings wouldn't block the radar.

The city and the FAA also have discussed placing a supplemental radar at those locations to compensate for any loss [sic] coverage.

The cost estimate to potentially move a similar radar in Texas was $25 million and officials predicted it would take five years, Kingsmore said.

The Air Force's solution was nine or 10-story buildings at the Oceanfront, Kingsmore said.

"We try to offer something that's palatable," he said.
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September 14, 2009

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/09/oceanfront-expansion-halted-radar-concerns
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Not really, at least at Virginia Beach, the city is actually for development and are trying to reach a compromise. Boston wouldn't even support something like 10 stories, regardless if the FAA is involved or not.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

The sad part is I think the city, FAA, and Massport are doing Chiofaro a favor at this point. Don't bother building anything at this location keep the garage and raise the parking rates. Best location in the city to own a parking lot.

People are paying 300k for parking spaces in the backbay. Parking is priceless in the city of Boston.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I just want to revisit one of the original points here...

The general, non-politicized FAA-approved map shows that this site can handle a 625' building.

Then, the specific, politicized, unusual recommendation is issued that this site can actually go to only 400'.

As a rational adult, I do not understand the disparity, and yet as a Bostonian, I completely understand the disparity.

The general map was created to take the guesswork out of the FAA edicts. And then the FAA sends an edict that contradicts themselves.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

That site could handle way over 600ft. IP is across the St. The FAA makes no sense at all. I think the problem is the political hacks aren't getting their kickbacks and they are creating more problems than they should be for this one.

Chiofaro proposed a very good development for this area. The Harbor Towers people aren't going to like anything built beside them.

I still think this gets built at 600ft. The problem the political hacks will face is the UNIONS and their is NO Jobs in the pipeline.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^^^ So one corupt organization nixes another one.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

For once I'd be with the unions. It actually makes economic sense to feed them, as opposed to lining the pockets of a few FAA officials or appeasing some wealthy old women who live in Harbor Towers.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

TheRifleman said:
That site could handle way over 600ft. IP is across the St.
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Although I pretty much agree with the first half of this statement, the logic to back it up eludes me. IP is 600 ft, and is a bit (not much) farther from the airport.

The logic however is 1000% better than the FAA's... so there you go.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Oops, posted in the wrong thread.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Good overview of the project along with three mock-ups. I didn't cut and paste the whole thing because he did a lot of work putting it together.

Harbor Tower IAG Hears Scenarios from BRA


The Harbor Garage Impact Advisory Group (IAG) recently heard three scenarios from the Boston Redevelopment Authority (BRA) as part of the Greenway District Planning Study. Although developer and site owner Don Chiofaro was present, the Chiofaro Company did not comment on any of the plans for the Harbor Garage next to the aquarium. However, it was obvious that the BRA's plans differed substantially from his proposal. The BRA is planning on releasing its draft guidelines for the GDPS in February 2010.
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Three scenarios:

* Don't tear down the garage; build an office building on top of it, total height: 200 ft;

* Demolish garage, build new building approximately 250 ft in height;

* Build two towers, each approximately 400 ft in height (same as Harbor Towers).

During the Q&A, a few points were noted:

* The BRA did not consider a monolithic tower for this site (other than Scenario 1).

* Harbor Tower residents voiced a desire to have more space on the sides, along East India row. Harbor Towers is a vertical neighborhood of 1,200 people.

* The BRA prefers residential use for this downtown site.

* An IAG member indicated that it was undesirable to create "alleys" such as between Atlantic Wharf (Russia Wharf) and the Intercontinental. A wider "avenue" of a scale similar to the adjacent park on the aquarium side was suggested.

* Feasibility is not the BRA's job, but rather that of developers. The BRA did not do this plan for any specific developer.

* The Greenway Conservancy is hesitant to comment on the proposal because it does not know what the plan is for the entire Greenway area.
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

lame. bring it up to portland they could use a 400'.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I like scenario II but why can't it be 400 itself? Why a cap at 250? Also scenario II would probably be a land scraper. Scenario I would be ugly.

With the price they paid for the garage perhaps scenario III is the only on that is economically feasible.
 
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