[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

greenwayguy1982 said:
^^
The BRA is not ignoring Chiofaro. They issued a Scoping Determination over a year ago expaining to Chiofaro what work he had to do to advance his project through the approvals process. The ball is 100% in his court so I don't understand why he keeps complaining that the BRA won't talk to him. Just do the studies and move the ball down the field!

Oh and whether Chiofaro (more like Pru) pays taxes to the city it's irrelevant because the BRA isn't funded by the city or by property tax revenue collected by the city.
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How can Chiofaro actually move forward after the BRA only upping the development to a laughable 200FT? The ball was stripped. So why chase the ball when the BRA is already killing the development before he can even make the next step? If the BRA really wanted this site developed they would make a compromise or work towards the height.
I remember Shen claiming "that buildings like Rowes Wharf which, with its circular cutout in the middle, has become the signature building on Boston?s waterfront. I disagree with this statement." I think IP is the signature building with Rowes Wharf adding nice touch.



KentXie said:
^^ Regardless, the BRA is an useless entity of the city. You probably can't name one development in the city since our Mayor took office that did not have to suck up to the mayor in order for the BRA to give the go-ahead. The BRA is Menino's puppet government, that takes a decade for anything to go through. By then anything that was even designed remotely attractive has become a boxy stump. Just like every other development, the Greenway is mostly dull, hardly engaging, and literally a waste of space. The area cries urban but is given a suburban look. Where else will you find highway and large greenspace together in less than a square acre?
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The BRA could be a good idea if run as its own independent organization not connected to anytype of political intervention. AKA the MAYOR. The BRA has promoted some the the worst architectural developments in the city, possibly the country. Boston City Hall, Government Center, Harbor Towers.

Boston City Hall was voted the ugliest public space in the country.

Brutalism Architecture is just plain out depressing.

Arborway Great Post!!
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^^
Rifleman, not sure what you mean when you say that the BRA upped the height to 200 feet, stripping the ball away. I mean, zoning and state law on the garage site have been 155 feet for years so don't you think Chiofaro knew that when he started his process? He's the one that proposed an 800' building, and the BRA responded in kind with the same kind of Scoping Determination that they issue on other large projects in the city. So again, the ball is still in Chiofaro's court if he wants to advance it. If he doesn't like the zoning, why hasn't he filed for a variance or a PDA like any other developer would have? And why did he praise the Scoping Determination when it came out - 155 foot zoning and all?

And both you and Arborway seem to be using the harbor garage site as some kind of twisted metaphor for what's been going on elsewhere in the city. The negativity and hostility you speak of are all of your own imagination - look how much has gotten done under this administration, look how many buildings the BRA has permitted in recent years, even in spite of all the NIMBYism in this town - just because they won't say yes to one ridiculous project on the waterfront doesn't mean that they city is hostile to new development....quite the opposite as a matter of fact.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

To me, the defining characteristic of Boston is that it's the nation's premier college and university town, full of smart people.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

The last smart person in Boston's government was Ed Logue.

It's a lose-lose situation.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Ron Newman said:
To me, the defining characteristic of Boston is that it's the nation's premier college and university town, full of smart people.
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Half of which leaves the city after college.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I can't wait to see Don's new proposal which is smaller, more boring, most likely towers-in-the-parkish, and which canonizes the Harbor Towers' God-given right to preserved views for eternity.

I didn't like the old renderings whatsoever, especially at street level, but this "compromise" sounds like a step in the wrong direction.

Boring, "green", small, protetion of luxury views over renewed urban vitality - this is what the BRA requires.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Maybe it was too much to expect from Chiofaro, but I'm surprised he didn't consider taking his proposal in the opposite direction -- completely outside the Boston box. Maximum height, maximum density on the site, with architectural qualities that were far from run-of-the-mill Boston. Something really outstanding.

Chiofaro really hasn't done much to raise the bar. And Menino's involvement is truly astonishing. The latest whopper by McGrory is just embarrassing.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Ron Newman said:
To me, the defining characteristic of Boston is that it's the nation's premier college and university town, full of smart people.
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Colleges and Universities aren't necessarily full of 'smart' or 'intelligent' people, they are full of 'educated' people. The problem with 'educated' people is that they often know much which isn't so.

This is why sometimes the least 'educated' people are the most intelligent and excel at science or business, etc. This isn't to say that an education isn't beneficial to people, but it isn't the guarantee of success, competence, or intelligence, society in general seems to have often misplaced faith in.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Lurker said:
Colleges and Universities aren't necessarily full of 'smart' or 'intelligent' people, they are full of 'educated' people. The problem with 'educated' people is that they often know much which isn't so.

This is why sometimes the least 'educated' people are the most intelligent and excel at science or business, etc. This isn't to say that an education isn't beneficial to people, but it isn't the guarantee of success, competence, or intelligence, society in general seems to have often misplaced faith in.
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Living around a educated people usually offers a better surroundings and a much better living environment. But sometimes very intelligent people feel like they are above everyone else and never listen to anybody but themselves. When failure arises it usually ends in very bad bitterness for some with the sense of being entitled. Sometimes the simple people just understands society much better than the ivy League chump.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Six weeks ago, Chiofaro announced he had sent the BRA an extensive environmental analysis, shadow diagrams, wind studies, etc. etc. Did his typical p.r. front and center announcement.

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2010/06/15/chiofaro_denies_shadow_claims/

http://bh.heraldinteractive.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1261508&srvc=next_article

http://www.northendwaterfront.com/h...s-new-shadow-study-on-harbor-garage-site.html

Looked on his Harborgarage website yesterday, and he hasn't posted a copy of his extensive environmental analysis (that I could find, anyways).

Now read that he is completely redoing the design. So was the extensive environmental analysis based on the old design, the in-process, revised design, or some hypothetical massing?

No pun, but trying to get an understanding of the specifics of this project is like shadowboxing.
_________________________

As to the parking garage, even a freshly minted civil engineer can give you a cost estimate for constructing the underground garage by tranche of spaces. He has to provide a few hundred spaces for the Harbor towers residents because they own those as a matter of right through some date in the future.

Then it is a matter of figuring out the cost of the additional spaces for public parking. Assuming 200 spaces per parking level, the cost of spaces at level five might be $150,000 a space, at level six it might be $225,000 a space, and at level seven it might be $350,000 a space. If construction costs are that high, you could never recover the cost of construction for the deepest levels of parking. So instead of having 1,400 spaces, a cost-benefit study might say 800 or 1,000 spaces is the limit.

As for the current garage being a cash cow, I am skeptical. It could be a 'cash cow' if he is not paying off the principal on the loan that allowed him to buy the garage in the first place, --and he is facing a big balloon payment on that loan in 2012 or 2013.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Sometimes the simple people just understands society much better than the ivy League chump.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't want to refudiate that statement, but...

In all seriousness, I think one of Boston's problems is actually that it lacks career diversity. A city dominated by people associated with universities is not a city in which most people are necessarily in tune with the common, quotidian problems that plague real estate, investing, or urban planning. It also means that a lot of potential stakeholders don't really have the time or energy to participate meaningfully in the civic process. Absorption in professional activity might also lead to a "tend my own garden" mentality that can't really be reconciled with a spirit of broad-minded civic responsibility.

So in tandem, you get an unrepresentative sample of people highly interested in broad theoretical concepts ("open space good") and no idea why anyone would be interested in conflicting values, why other concepts might be economically necessary, or what is going on in / good for the rest of the city as a whole.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^ Astute, and pithy.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

stellarfun said:
Six weeks ago, Chiofaro announced he had sent the BRA an extensive environmental analysis, shadow diagrams, wind studies, etc. etc. Did his typical p.r. front and center announcement.

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2010/06/15/chiofaro_denies_shadow_claims/

http://bh.heraldinteractive.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1261508&srvc=next_article

http://www.northendwaterfront.com/h...s-new-shadow-study-on-harbor-garage-site.html

Looked on his Harborgarage website yesterday, and he hasn't posted a copy of his extensive environmental analysis (that I could find, anyways).

Now read that he is completely redoing the design. So was the extensive environmental analysis based on the old design, the in-process, revised design, or some hypothetical massing?

No pun, but trying to get an understanding of the specifics of this project is like shadowboxing.
_________________________

As to the parking garage, even a freshly minted civil engineer can give you a cost estimate for constructing the underground garage by tranche of spaces. He has to provide a few hundred spaces for the Harbor towers residents because they own those as a matter of right through some date in the future.

Then it is a matter of figuring out the cost of the additional spaces for public parking. Assuming 200 spaces per parking level, the cost of spaces at level five might be $150,000 a space, at level six it might be $225,000 a space, and at level seven it might be $350,000 a space. If construction costs are that high, you could never recover the cost of construction for the deepest levels of parking. So instead of having 1,400 spaces, a cost-benefit study might say 800 or 1,000 spaces is the limit.

As for the current garage being a cash cow, I am skeptical. It could be a 'cash cow' if he is not paying off the principal on the loan that allowed him to buy the garage in the first place, --and he is facing a big balloon payment on that loan in 2012 or 2013.
Click to expand...


I think Chiofaro's point is, if the BRA can't commit to a reasonable height then why go further into the process with the BRA. It's a waste of time.
I love these two quotes by Shen.
This was mention in the Commonwealth magazine.
#1 "Shen makes one other point about Rowes Wharf: Its developer, Norman Leventhal, didn?t make any money building it."
So what is Shen's point? That Chiofaro should build whatever the city tells him and if he doesn't make money that is his problem?

#2 Shen Claims ?They want to turn Boston into Shanghai,? This quote alone is completely false. 650Ft building is not going to turn Boston into Shanghai. They are building 1,000ft towers in Shanghai.

Talk about scaring future developers taking a risk in the city of Boston.

I agree that Boston has defined itself into a college town.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

czsz, San Francisco is not a university town by any stretch, and San Francisco, arguably, is harder on developers and development than Boston is.

http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-02-06/opinion/17847963_1_shadows-chiu-slow-growth-measure

Earlier,

http://www.sfbg.com/2010/02/09/sunshine-and-shadows
http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/Shadow-cast-over-park-sunlight-debate-42031197.html
http://la.curbed.com/archives/2010/...pers_imperiled_by_new_initiative_las_next.php
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

?They want to turn Boston into Shanghai,?
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Strangely enough, Shanghai is probably the most Boston-like city in China. The human-scaled architecture of the French Concession and the courtyard shikumen have a lot in common with Boston's most historic neighborhoods.

But I digress; Shen means the modern parts of Shanghai, like Pudong. To which I must say: the most Pudong-like (indeed, most contemporary-Chinese-city) feature in Boston isn't its flashy towers, but the monumental scale and pointless ornamental landscaping of the Rose Kennedy Greenway.

Actually, nevermind. If it were a Chinese park, it would have people in it.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

stellarfun said:
czsz, San Francisco is not a university town by any stretch, and San Francisco, arguably, is harder on developers and development than Boston is.
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I'm obviously no expert, but I just don't see how this is the case. First, that ultra strict shadow law never stood a chance. But second, even granting that both Boston and SF live by the shadow review, the consequences for the latter's growth are threatened to a much lesser degree. Whereas all tall downtown developments in Boston inevitably, somehow, would cast shadows over the sacred greenery of the Common and now the RKG, San Francisco's most hallowed open spaces are out in the neighborhoods, which are completely built out. These areas also happen to be where SF's equivalent of NABB live - places like Pac Heights, which lie far beyond the reach of any nefarious downtown shadows. Indeed, the most dramatic of SF's future growth is taking place across wide swaths of vacant wasteland, where in recent years a hodgepodge of large glassy condo towers have popped up (including ~650' One Rincon) and are now populated by a bunch of yuppies. This is not an area where any old timers who contributed to the "loose-fit rules" in '84 will cause a stink. SF has a chance to get a 1200 footer, and it will.*

* Woops, I was talking out of my ass and this is what I get. Apparently, a 1200 foot Transbay Tower would in fact cast a shadow over the plaza where the Embarcadero meets Market, in violation of the 1984 rule. But a 1000' foot tower would not. But anyway, that's still a supertall, so my observation about the contingently favorable conditions for SF still stands.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

A lot of the reasons Boston's university town status hinders development are shared by SF. First, SF does have a lot of university affiliates from places like Stanford and Berkeley. Second, it has a lot of working professionals, and most of the reasons Boston is hard on development are not exclusively because it's a university town, but because it's a professionals' town. Lawyers, doctors, and researchers are all susceptible to the "tend my own garden" mentality, and most lack the time for engaged civic participation. The university town aspect merely lends itself, potentially, to the extra encumbrance of overbroad and unsympathetic thinking when it comes to justifications offered by developers.

(I also wonder if working and potentially living in campus environments affects academics' or university affiliates' attitudes toward urbanism. When you're immersed in and accept a towers-in-the-park development as an acceptable, workable model, you might have a skewed understanding of the dynamics of the street.)
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

czsz said:
The last smart person in Boston's government was Ed Logue.
Click to expand...
He of the Government Center?

Smart? Maybe.

Goes to show: you can be smart and simultaneously inept.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

czsz said:
Well, I don't want to refudiate that statement, but...

In all seriousness, I think one of Boston's problems is actually that it lacks career diversity. A city dominated by people associated with universities is not a city in which most people are necessarily in tune with the common, quotidian problems that plague real estate, investing, or urban planning. It also means that a lot of potential stakeholders don't really have the time or energy to participate meaningfully in the civic process. Absorption in professional activity might also lead to a "tend my own garden" mentality that can't really be reconciled with a spirit of broad-minded civic responsibility.

So in tandem, you get an unrepresentative sample of people highly interested in broad theoretical concepts ("open space good") and no idea why anyone would be interested in conflicting values, why other concepts might be economically necessary, or what is going on in / good for the rest of the city as a whole.
Click to expand...

You also forgot to mention that a large part of the city's population is employed by the city itself. It's very hard to vote against or criticize yourself. That is highly detrimental to the operation of the city in all aspects of operation, including those most closely entangled with development.
 
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