Avalon Exeter | 77 Exeter Street | Back Bay

[atlrvr]

Looking at that aerial, it makes me wonder if the Westin was originally concieved to have a second tower as part of a future phase...running north-south along Dartmouth? The setback of that distance from Dartmouth seems odd, and there is certainly enough room for a second tower if the supporting structure is designed to accomodate one.

 

[commuter guy]

Looking at that aerial, it makes me wonder if the Westin was originally concieved to have a second tower as part of a future phase...running north-south along Dartmouth? The setback of that distance from Dartmouth seems odd, and there is certainly enough room for a second tower if the supporting structure is designed to accomodate one.

I'm wondering if those setbacks have anything to do with an effort to mitigate shadows being cast upon the Public Library's courtyard. I have a vague memory of an article discussing the construction of the very mediocre "Trinity Place" building situated at one huntington ave. The article stated that the building (particularly the "high rise" portion) was intentionally set back away from the corner nearest copley square so that the impact of shadows on the library would be minimized.

If my memory serves me right - this will probably be an issue for a large building on the neiman marcus site.

 

[kz1000ps]

First off - there's an existing thread dedicated to this tower already, so hopefully Vanshnook can move it pretty soon. (pwitty pwease?)

Now to address atlrvr's question: the Westin is where it is because the neighborhood groups wanted the tower's mass as far away from Copley Square as possible. Although there might be space for a second tower (and I find the proposition intriguing), the structure as built wouldn't be able to support it.

Here's a couple images I've gathered from the BPL of early proposals/massing studies:

And then here's the final form:

 

[czsz]

I think the new tower should be set back in a similar fashion from Dartmouth...it would give the street a characteristic consistency, not to mention prevent the vista down Dartmouth from anywhere in Back Bay from being dominated by this tower entirely (the South End won't be so lucky...and will likely fight this with the ferocity they've pursued Columbus Center).

 

[TC]

By "empty lot" do you mean the little brick plaza across the street from Back Bay Station? To me, that's not a buildable lot, it's a public amenity, the gateway to the Southwest Corridor linear park. I'd hate to see it encroached upon.

Ron,

It's not directly across from BB Station. It's on the other side of Newman Marcus towards Copley.

 

[ablarc]

Ron,

It's not directly across from BB Station. It's on the other side of Newman Marcus towards Copley.

Are you talking to Ron Neiman?

 

[TC]

LOL,

Just letting my friend Mr. Neiman know which entrance would be impacted by the 'soaring' new tower.

 

[statler]

I think this goes here.

Proposal for Pair of Towers Causes Some Growing Pains

Project Team Eyes Spot at Hub?s Prudential Center; Advisory Panel Wary of Height, Look and Location
By Thomas Grillo
Reporter

Image courtesy Boston Redevelopment Authority
The 30-story residential tower proposed for Exeter Street at the Prudential Center in Boston is shown above in an artist?s rendering. The developers are Boston Properties and Avalon Bay Communities.

Growing pains. Boston Properties and Avalon Bay Communities have proposed a pair of towers that will bring 200 residences and a 19-story office building to Boston?s Prudential Center. But some members of a city advisory panel already have raised red flags about the height, look and location of the towers.

?Height, density and appearance are always a worry,? said Richard Kiley, a member of the Prudential Project Advisory Committee (PruPAC), a group formed in the 1980s to advise City Hall on development proposals in the neighborhood.

The $192 million proposal calls for a 30-story residential high-rise on Exeter Street across from the Boston Public Library, according to documents filed with the Boston Redevelopment Authority. The project also calls for the construction of an office building at 888 Boylston St., adjacent to the John B. Hynes Veterans Memorial Convention. The BRA had approved an 11-story building at the site, but the developer has told officials that the building needs to be taller to attract anchor tenants.

Michael A. Cantalupa of Boston Properties declined to talk about the project or provide renderings of the towers. Avalon?s Michael Roberts did not return repeated calls seeking comment.

While the developers were silent, some PruPAC members raised concerns about the buildings? height and location.

?Anything above the 11-story limit that has been the tradition in the neighborhood raises concerns,? said PruPAC member and state Rep. Martha M. Walz, whose district abuts the Prudential Center. ?All of the tall Pru buildings are set back from the street, but the one proposed for Boylston is at the sidewalk?s edge and that?s another concern.?

Walz said she is not convinced that Boston Properties needs more height in order to make the tower more marketable to tenants.

?I don?t understand enough about the commercial real estate market to know whether that?s a reasonable assertion,? she said. ?I?d want to know more before I accept that at face value.?

Steven Wolf, a PruPAC member who represents the Fenway Community Development Corp., said the initial model presented by the developers of the two-pronged project on Exeter Street and Boylston streets ?looked good? but that lots of details need to be worked out.

?Boston Properties [has] done [its] homework,? he said. ?We will see how things evolve during this process, but my initial reaction is positive.?

?Lots of Arm-Twisting?

Still, Wolf said while the proposal for two towers seems reasonable, he is still irked by the city?s approval of the nearby Mandarin Oriental being built on Boylston Street.

The 13-story Mandarin Oriental Boston hotel is scheduled to open next year next to Lord & Taylor on Boylston Street. The $230 million project will add 168 guestrooms and the property will be part of a mixed-use complex with first-floor retail and condominiums on the upper floors.

?The way the Mandarin got shoehorned into that location still rankles us, six years later,? Wolf said. ?There was lots of arm-twisting by the mayor and lobbying by the BRA. It felt like if you?re friends with the mayor, the skids are greased for you. Now that building casts a shadow on the sidewalk, even in the middle of the summer.?

A BRA spokeswoman noted that the Mandarin project only moved forward following a ?lengthy public review process and support from PruPAC.?

While PruPAC encouraged the construction of the residential tower on Exeter Street, Walz said she is not sure whether the height and design of the tower are in keeping with the neighborhood.

?Do we want a 32-story building across the street from the Boston Public Library?? Walz asked. ?That?s twice the height of the Lenox Hotel. That location makes sense for housing, but it appears the architects were being unduly timid in their approach and could design a more beautiful building. The architects are missing an opportunity to create something that fits into an architecturally diverse Pru Center.?

The project has at least one big booster: Mayor Thomas M. Menino.

?Boston Properties is an outstanding developer and has always done right by the community, and we will continue to work with them so we can have further development at the Pru,? Menino told Banker & Tradesman. ?I am inclined to support them as long as they work with the neighborhood.?

Boston Properties and Avalon Bay presented plans for the project at a PruPAC meeting earlier this month. The 41-member panel found itself in the midst of a controversy after evicting a reporter from the session.

While PruPAC voted overwhelmingly to remove a Boston Courant reporter from the meeting held on Wednesday, Sept. 5, the mayor has directed the board to keep the meetings open.

Still, it is unclear what will happen at the next PruPAC meeting, which is scheduled for Wednesday, Oct. 10. Betsy Johnson, PruPac chairwoman, said the committee would not fight an edict by Menino to keep all of the gatherings open to the public.

The BRA sent a letter to the panel instructing the board last week to keep the meetings open to the public after the mayor?s comments were published in Banker & Tradesman.

But Kiley, the PruPac member who voted to keep the press out, said he is not sure how he will vote.

?I want to talk more to the board about it because PruPAC has always conducted its working sessions without the media,? he said. ?But sometimes we have to adapt to change, and if public sentiment is that strong we will not ignore it. Perhaps it?s counterproductive to keep the meetings private because people would wonder more what?s done behind closed doors.?

No link available

 

[statler]

So many stupid quotes. Let's start with this one:

?Do we want a 32-story building across the street from the Boston Public Library?? Walz asked.

Uh, um.

The architects are missing an opportunity to create something that fits into an architecturally diverse Pru Center.

Exactly what style 'fits into' an 'architecturally diverse' area? Or more to the point what style doesn't fit in? Maybe they have a different meaning of 'diverse' than I do. :?:

 

[ckb]

Some more fun.

?Height, density and appearance are always a worry,? said Richard Kiley,

I agree, but I think I worry in the opposite direction as Mr. Kiley on the first two points. More density is needed, and height is great! Look at that rendering -- it looks like a city. On the second point, I agree ... what is going on with the jumbled appearance. Crappy rendering?

?I don?t understand enough about the commercial real estate market to know whether that?s a reasonable assertion,? [Martha Walz] said [regarding the need for a taller building in order for a project to be profitable].

Well, I guess it is nice to see a politician admitting she needs more information. But, after serving on PruPAC for sometime, wouldn't you think she would have some general idea?

?The way the Mandarin got shoehorned into that location still rankles us, six years later,? Wolf said. ?There was lots of arm-twisting by the mayor and lobbying by the BRA. It felt like if you?re friends with the mayor, the skids are greased for you. Now that building casts a shadow on the sidewalk, even in the middle of the summer.?

Agreement and disagreement. Repeated again, "it felt like if you?re friends with the mayor, the skids are greased for you." The process in Boston is broken.

Disagreement: "that building casts a shadow on the sidewalk." Ok, I don't disagree that it casts a shadow. Oh, the horror, the horror! There's no grass growing on the sidewalk. Anyway, the orientation of the street determines the shadow pattern much more than building height. Newbury Street is in shadow as well (with 4-5 buildings on it!). Doesn't seem to prevent people from wanting to walk there, though.

And what did the Mandarin replace? A very pedestrian UNfriendly raised plaza and parking garage entrance ramps.

Walz again: "but it appears the architects were being unduly timid in their approach and could design a more beautiful building. The architects are missing an opportunity to create something that fits into an architecturally diverse Pru Center.?

Agreed!!!! Ok, I don't know what doesn't fit into something that is architecturally diverse, but if we're going to gun for better design than that junky rendering, I'm all for it.

 

[Smuttynose]

It's hard to get a good sense of the buildings based on that rendering, but it looks pretty modern, which you really need there to balance out all those 1960's Prudential complex buildings.

 

[JimboJones]

Perfect

Whoa. I didn't know that's where the building was going to go.

It's perfect! Seriously. No one will know it's there except those who live there. No one goes down that road except to cut through to the other side, it's an ugly street to begin with, it has little-to-no foot traffic, it's empty space.

I like it. 30-stories sounds fine. Again, no one can see it.

Adding residential housing here is a great idea.

If there is additional parking, it will work out fine. Those who park in there can exit toward Huntington Ave, keeping additional traffic congestion stress on the Back Bay to a minimum (meaning, none at all).

Sounds good!

 

[chris]

While PruPAC encouraged the construction of the residential tower on Exeter Street, Walz said she is not sure whether the height and design of the tower are in keeping with the neighborhood.

?Do we want a 32-story building across the street from the Boston Public Library?? Walz asked. ?That?s twice the height of the Lenox Hotel. That location makes sense for housing, but it appears the architects were being unduly timid in their approach and could design a more beautiful building. The architects are missing an opportunity to create something that fits into an architecturally diverse Pru Center.?

So she criticizes the proposal as being out of character for the neighborhood, and at the same time criticizes the proposal for not be enough out of character of the neighborhood. Now that's NIMBYism!


Also, it looks like from the render that the new Exeter building is really really close to an existing tower. I can't imagine those residents will be too happy.

 

[atlrvr]

This is very very close to the Exter(?) Tower that Avalon also owns/operates.....the thing is, they are all rental towers, so it's not going to monetarily affect anyone by blocking their view of Beacon Hill/maybe Public Garden....the only revenue it could affect is Avalon's own income if they have to discount rents on the north side of the existing tower to compensate for having a large building obscuring the view from those units.

Based on this difficult to see rendering, it looks great to me.....it mimics the design elements of most new Boston residential towers, but that's not a bad thing, espeically as someone mentioned, the complex needs some modern infusion.

I don't see how height can be an issue on the residential tower. I predict that it will be harder to get the 19 story office tower approved, but the Marty, please read between the lines, they have a tenant lined up that needs that much space.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

I thought the condo market was cooling? Why propose two new towers?

 

[atlrvr]

^ Ummm....because these are an apartment and office tower, which have little to do with the condo market.

 

[JimboJones]

A more reasonable response

Regarding your question about the condo market.

In the city, there is still a very strong market. In fact, there will be more $2 million+ sales in Boston, this year, than ever before (actual closings, not under agreements). There will be more $1 million+ sales in Boston, this year, than ever before.

The middle market (say, $500,000) is down in sales volume, maybe 20%, but sales prices are not.

The situation in the outer-neighborhoods such as Dorchester or East Boston may be different, although even there things seem to be going strong - I did an analysis of sales in East Boston last week, and it showed 103 units sold this year to date, compared to 134 for the entire year, last year.

I like how they are planning a mixed-use building - office, rental and condo. Spread the risk.

 

[type001]

They should have proposed more 60-70 story buildings here to keep the idea of the high spine alive.

 

[Padre Mike]

I love the proposal, and yes, I think a very tall tower (30-40 stories) would be great there. It would balance off the rest of the Pru center and its relation to Copley Place. The multiple facade layout breaks up the mass of the building, but I would be just as happy with something consistently clad, sleek, and edgy. And "hogwash" to the idea that it's too close to the BPL or "intrudes" on the Back Bay. The Pru site was a tangle of derelict train yards originally, and was never considered part of the Back Bay proper until the Pru, etc. was built. And so what if the new building is next to the Johnson BPL building. It's a brutalist bunker designed to insulate the McKim building of the BPL from everything else around it. It will continue to be an insulator no matter how close, how tall, how modern the Exeter St. building becomes. After all, the apartment building on the corner of Huntington, next to the McKim building and across from the Westin hasn't detracted from the BPL, in my opinion.

 

[kz1000ps]

The plaza as it currently exists:

(there's those movie production trailers)