Bay Village Infill and Small Developments

First Holy Trinity German Church, the monster of the South End. Then Immaculate Conception on Harrison Ave...at least the exterior remains at the expense of a truly singular interior. Now this. It's as if the developers are so anti-religion that they can't wait to destroy anything of historical beauty that is church-related.
 
It's phoney preservation. The part worth preserving is to be removed and when they are done it will be ugly
 
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Life Coach Mike said:
First Holy Trinity German Church, the monster of the South End. Then Immaculate Conception on Harrison Ave...at least the exterior remains at the expense of a truly singular interior. Now this. It's as if the developers are so anti-religion that they can't wait to destroy anything of historical beauty that is church-related.
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The interior was removed by the Archdiocese, when this property was sold. All the good bits in those interior photos have been stripped and put into storage. It is what the Archdiocese does. It is disingenuous to be showing those pictures of the interior. This building is a stripped carcase now. The developer is not ruining the building, the Archdiocese did that before sale.

We need to be focused on the real villain here. The Archdiocese is systematically stripping the ecclesiastical architectural heritage of Boston in order to pay off their huge legal debts from the horrible pedophile scandal. They always strip the building before sale. They will not allow the building to be reused as a church for some other religious group (Boston Chinese Evangelical Church tried to buy Holy Trinity, for example, no deal no way!) -- they insist on a repurposed use by a developer. The villain here is the Archdiocese of Boston, not the BPDA and the developer!

=> SIde note, I do not know the explicit order of the stripping -- it may be physically done before sale, or be a condition of sale that the interior parts be stripped out by the developer and delivered to Archdiocese storage facilities. But there is no way to save the interior at this point, the Archdiocese made sure of that.
 
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George_Apley said:
We have a thread kicking around somewhere about "what to do with abandoned churches". As Equilibria points out, the building was abandoned by the church and sold. Not sure what the city would do here. Keep the building perpetually vacant until it sells and sells again in the hopes that someone with vision and cash finds an "appropriate" use for it?
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It's a tough challenge. I'm grateful that with projects like these at least some semblance of the church will be preserved. Meanwhile, in cities with less demand (like Worcester), you just see the churches sit empty and rot or get flat out leveled:

www.telegram.com

Notre Dame church demo set to begin

WORCESTER – The owner of the former Notre Dame des Canadiens Church is set to begin the first phase of taking down the historic downtown landmark this week. Cutler Associates, a Worcester general c…
www.telegram.com
 
Life Coach Mike said:
First Holy Trinity German Church, the monster of the South End. Then Immaculate Conception on Harrison Ave...at least the exterior remains at the expense of a truly singular interior. Now this. It's as if the developers are so anti-religion that they can't wait to destroy anything of historical beauty that is church-related.
Click to expand...

What would you recommend as a cure for developers' anti-religious ways? Just plop a res unit in a church and call it a day? I can hear the realtor now: "The vestibule makes a lovely place to store Amazon packages for you...and twenty friends. The narthex is now a divine powder room at one end and a coat closet at the other, perfect for entertaining. The nave has become the ultimate great room, but you'll need a few folding screens or pass-through bookshelves to visually break up the space. Over here is the crossing, now the dining room. Check out those thirty-foot ceilings, huh? Just beyond we have the kitchen, with the altar re-imagined as a prep island. The apse is a lovely, if rather overdone, pantry. The transepts are really flex space - imagine them softly aglow with hundreds of Anthropologie candles! Now let's head up to the choir loft-turned-bedroom; it's not much for privacy, but..."

Sarcasm aside, four millennia of organized religion has proven no temple is too holy to be repurposed or, failing that, abandoned altogether. People change, tastes change, and our built world adapts or crumbles ad hoc.
 
JeffDowntown said:
The interior was removed by the Archdiocese, when this property was sold. All the good bits in those interior photos have been stripped and put into storage. It is what the Archdiocese does. It is disingenuous to be showing those pictures of the interior. This building is a stripped carcase now. The developer is not ruining the building, the Archdiocese did that before sale.

We need to be focused on the real villain here. The Archdiocese is systematically stripping the ecclesiastical architectural heritage of Boston in order to pay off their huge legal debts from the horrible pedophile scandal. They always strip the building before sale. They will not allow the building to be reused as a church for some other religious group (Boston Chinese Evangelical Church tried to buy Holy Trinity, for example, no deal no way!) -- they insist on a repurposed use by a developer. The villain here is the Archdiocese of Boston, not the BPDA and the developer!

=> SIde note, I do not know the explicit order of the stripping -- it may be physically done before sale, or be a condition of sale that the interior parts be stripped out by the developer and delivered to Archdiocese storage facilities. But there is no way to save the interior at this point, the Archdiocese made sure of that.
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Actually, The Marist Fathers and Brothers, who served Our Lady of Victories since 1883, have withdrawn from ministry in the parish and the Archdiocese of Boston accepted their request for the closure of the parish. The Marist Fathers owned the land and the buildings and they were the ones who profited by the sale. The money likely went to supported their retired priests and brothers. None of it would have gone to the Archdiocese if this is the case. The stripping of the interior...that may or may not have been the Archdiocese of Boston. In any case it's a sad ending.
 
#bancars said:
It's a tough challenge. I'm grateful that with projects like these at least some semblance of the church will be preserved. Meanwhile, in cities with less demand (like Worcester), you just see the churches sit empty and rot or get flat out leveled:

www.telegram.com

Notre Dame church demo set to begin

WORCESTER – The owner of the former Notre Dame des Canadiens Church is set to begin the first phase of taking down the historic downtown landmark this week. Cutler Associates, a Worcester general c…
www.telegram.com
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The City Square connected plans to build more apartments have been shelved even before COVID, so there are now two wind-swept, trash–filled lots in downtown Worcester where Notre Dame and Mount Carmel once stood. Everyone would have welcomed a conversion like here.

One bright point: The original plans to build apartments were pretty blah.
 
Life Coach Mike said:
Actually, The Marist Fathers and Brothers, who served Our Lady of Victories since 1883, have withdrawn from ministry in the parish and the Archdiocese of Boston accepted their request for the closure of the parish. The Marist Fathers owned the land and the buildings and they were the ones who profited by the sale. The money likely went to supported their retired priests and brothers. None of it would have gone to the Archdiocese if this is the case. The stripping of the interior...that may or may not have been the Archdiocese of Boston. In any case it's a sad ending.
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The biggest crime, in my opinion, is the refusal of the Archdiocese to allow these buildings to be reused as churches by other denominations. I am not saying that this one had a prospective user, but Holy Trinity definitely did, and they were rejected out of hand by the Archdiocese. That basically guarantees that the architecture will get raped by a developer.
 
JeffDowntown said:
The biggest crime, in my opinion, is the refusal of the Archdiocese to allow these buildings to be reused as churches by other denominations. I am not saying that this one had a prospective user, but Holy Trinity definitely did, and they were rejected out of hand by the Archdiocese. That basically guarantees that the architecture will get raped by a developer.
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Youre totally right but I can't say I blame them. The Catholic church isnt going to pave a golden path for another sect to move in... they'll never call it a competition but it is in some ways
 
JeffDowntown said:
The biggest crime, in my opinion, is the refusal of the Archdiocese to allow these buildings to be reused as churches by other denominations. I am not saying that this one had a prospective user, but Holy Trinity definitely did, and they were rejected out of hand by the Archdiocese. That basically guarantees that the architecture will get raped by a developer.
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I'm not defending the Archdiocese, since I did leave the priesthood there 11 years ago, by my own choice. Just trying to set the record straight(er). The Holy Trinity debacle was fraught with ideological/theological/political issues. Many of the objective facts on both sides were not accurately expressed in public. And there have been a number of ethnic parishes closed for the sake of consolidation with territorial parishes, but without respect for the ethnic parishioners' desire to keep their traditions alive. We won't go into that here.

Then, as stated before, it's often more profitable for the church to sell the land and building to a developer rather than to an alternative congregation.

The diocese has in fact sold churches to other denominations. In fact one parish in Arlington was sold to the Greek Orthodox community. The trouble has been that Catholic churches tend to be too large for smaller congregations, expensive to maintain, utilities-wise, old (and therefore constant money pits), and are not generally set up inside for non-liturgical services, and so would require a lot of remodeling. Also stained glass windows in most Catholic churches 'translate' into other religious traditions (all those saints!). Plus in the Boston area there just aren't a lot of large non-Catholic congregations looking for new digs; most mainline churches are shrinking and many have been sold or torn down. In most cases, organized religious groups are losing members or not gaining younger members in eastern MA. There are some exceptions among certain independent fundamentalist protestant groups.
 
JeffDowntown said:
The biggest crime, in my opinion, is the refusal of the Archdiocese to allow these buildings to be reused as churches by other denominations.
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I often see people saying this on here, but I don't think the facts support it. See, e.g., this article from about 15 years ago, and Life Coach / Padres Mike's post below.
Most of the 26 church buildings that have been sold are being used for new housing, but eight were purchased by other churches, including New Covenant, a 400-member evangelical Protestant church.
[...]
Other churches with strong ethnic identities like New Covenant's have found homes in former Catholic properties, including another Haitian congregation that bought St. Peter in Malden. A Serbian Orthodox church bought Immaculate Conception in Cambridge and a Greek Orthodox Church bought St. James in Arlington.
Jubilee Christian Church in Boston, one of New England's largest churches, purchased Our Lady of the Rosary in Stoughton as a satellite church for about 2,000 members who live in that area. Another Protestant congregation, Greater Faith Pentecostal Worship Center, bought St. Joseph in Boston's Hyde Park.
The little-known Swedenborgian church purchased Our Lady Help of Christians in Concord. And a Nazarene congregation bought St. Alphonsus in Danvers.
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Life Coach Mike said:
The diocese has in fact sold churches to other denominations. In fact one parish in Arlington was sold to the Greek Orthodox community. The trouble has been that Catholic churches tend to be too large for smaller congregations, expensive to maintain, utilities-wise, old (and therefore constant money pits), and are not generally set up inside for non-liturgical services, and so would require a lot of remodeling. Also stained glass windows in most Catholic churches 'translate' into other religious traditions (all those saints!). Plus in the Boston area there just aren't a lot of large non-Catholic congregations looking for new digs; most mainline churches are shrinking and many have been sold or torn down. In most cases, organized religious groups are losing members or not gaining younger members in eastern MA. There are some exceptions among certain independent fundamentalist protestant groups.
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The Archdiocese's website talks about the difference between selling churches for other "sacred worship" versus selling them for "profane but not sordid use."
 
JumboBuc said:
I often see people saying this on here, but I don't think the facts support it. See, e.g., this article from about 15 years ago, and Life Coach / Padres Mike's post below.


The Archdiocese's website talks about the difference between selling churches for other "sacred worship" versus selling them for "profane but not sordid use."
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OK, I stand corrected on that point. I am now really curious what went wrong with Holy Trinity, because the Boston Chinese Evangelical Church was told the property would not be sold for another religious purpose.
 
JeffDowntown said:
OK, I stand corrected on that point. I am now really curious what went wrong with Holy Trinity, because the Boston Chinese Evangelical Church was told the property would not be sold for another religious purpose.
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Boston Globe article on the closing and re-purposing of Holy Trinity.
www.boston.com

They celebrated life and love in Holy Trinity church. Now it’s a condo building

The church has been turned into a high-end condo building called “The Lucas.’’
www.boston.com

Immaculate Conception was owned by the Society of Jesus. The fight over its closing and sale was not so much about the exterior, and the church itself, but the interior, and the organ. I think Boston College grabbed the organ.

www.digitalcommonwealth.org

Interior of Church of the Immaculate Conception, Boston, Mass.

An online library of photographs, manuscripts, audio recordings, and other materials of historical interest from libraries, museums, archives, and historical societies across Massachusetts.
www.digitalcommonwealth.org www.digitalcommonwealth.org

www.mchinc.com

404 | McKAY CONANT HOOVER

www.mchinc.com www.mchinc.com

History of the church here.

 
@TomOfBoston you're the Bay Village expert if I recall, what's the excavation going on at the end of Winchester St. near Arlington? Also any idea what's going on with the NatGrid (or is it Eversource) expansion on Charles Street South on their empty lot (58).
 
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