BCEC expansion | Seaport

Perhaps -- like Fenway Park -- that will be the Official Innovation District Score / Message Board
 
Last edited:
It sticks in my craw that (unconfirmed) the BCEC is an investor in the Tea Party Museum, a private commercial venture.

There is seemingly no line drawn between the taxpayer and the beneficiaries of this project who are privately and directly enriched by it. The taxpayer just keeps hearing, "Trust us, if we kickstart the waterfront we're doing you a big favor."
 
TheRifleman said:
More like GRAND TAXPAYER's SCAM. It's easy to have vision when your not using your personal money.
Click to expand...

A bit off topic -- by following links out of the above URL -- here's part of the conversion of 'other spaces' to homes in the growing Innovation District

http://www.boston.com/yourtown/bost...to_begin_on_pier_4_apartment_tower_in_boston/

"Waterfront in bloom:Developers are set to begin construction on Pier 4, one of several projects gaining traction
By Casey Ross
Globe Staff / August 11, 2011

After years of delay, the developer of Pier 4 in Boston’s Seaport District will build a $170 million apartment and retail tower, adding to a burst of development activity that is rapidly transforming the city’s waterfront...“We’ve made a significant investment here and see it as a great place to live, work, and visit,’’ said Douglass Karp, the firm’s executive vice president. “This first building is going to be the gateway for the Pier 4 development.’’ …..New England Development and its chief executive, Stephen R. Karp, bought Pier 4 in 1998 ….Karp spent several years devising plans for a massive commercial development on Pier 4 that won approval in 2005......His firm waited to proceed through the recession and just recently began meeting with city officials about moving forward......Before construction can proceed, the Boston Redevelopment Authority must sign off on changes to the development plan. The building New England Development now wants to contain apartments had been previously slated for offices......BRA officials have thus far offered supportive comments for the project, which they see as crucial to continuing momentum on the waterfront at a time when it seems poised for rapid redevelopment......“What’s different now is that the innovation district is a growing place,’’ BRA director Peter Meade said."
 
whighlander said:
A bit off topic -- by following links out of the above URL -- here's part of the conversion of 'other spaces' to homes in the growing Innovation District

http://www.boston.com/yourtown/bost...to_begin_on_pier_4_apartment_tower_in_boston/

"Waterfront in bloom:Developers are set to begin construction on Pier 4, one of several projects gaining traction
By Casey Ross
Globe Staff / August 11, 2011

After years of delay, the developer of Pier 4 in Boston’s Seaport District will build a $170 million apartment and retail tower, adding to a burst of development activity that is rapidly transforming the city’s waterfront...“We’ve made a significant investment here and see it as a great place to live, work, and visit,’’ said Douglass Karp, the firm’s executive vice president. “This first building is going to be the gateway for the Pier 4 development.’’ …..New England Development and its chief executive, Stephen R. Karp, bought Pier 4 in 1998 ….Karp spent several years devising plans for a massive commercial development on Pier 4 that won approval in 2005......His firm waited to proceed through the recession and just recently began meeting with city officials about moving forward......Before construction can proceed, the Boston Redevelopment Authority must sign off on changes to the development plan. The building New England Development now wants to contain apartments had been previously slated for offices......BRA officials have thus far offered supportive comments for the project, which they see as crucial to continuing momentum on the waterfront at a time when it seems poised for rapid redevelopment......“What’s different now is that the innovation district is a growing place,’’ BRA director Peter Meade said."
Click to expand...

The city and state seem to have focused on building up this area at all costs. Especially the taxpayers costs.

When the Director Peter Meade claims "What’s different now is that the innovation district is a growing place,"
How is it growing?
Because the State and city officials decided to help out private developer Joe Fallon with over 71 million dollars in taxpayer percs to help relocate Vertex from one part of the city to another and build the infrastructure around the area. What about the developer giving us percs? Like paying back the 71 Million in taxpayers costs?

Isn't it the job of a private developer to buy a piece of land then get private investors to build something to attract specific industry?

Instead it seems we have BAILOUTS across the board, especilly in an area which it seems Menino friends have so much invested.

Fallon, Karp, Hynes.........

I'm not sure how you live your life but when I build a project I don't call upon my fellow taxpayers to bail me out if I pay too much for the land, that is my problem to figure out.

The innovation district might be growing but the only thing actually growing is the city's budget for more space to be maintain.

In the end Boston will end up BROKE because of the lack of private industry in the city to help support tax revenue. Almost every project in the pipeline needs taxpayers assistance. This is not Private Development anymore.

Off the topic......The taxpayers are about to be swindled at least a minimum of 300 Million to build the BCEC. These are facts.
 
Last edited:
Riff -- I'm the last person who wants to see the government at any level playing the roll of economic director -- that always fails

" Isn't it the job of a private developer to buy a piece of land then get private investors to build something to attract specific industry? " -- that works when you are talking some farmers field or a piece of forest -- though even here the developer is usually dependent on the roads and sometimes utilities being provided by government.

However, when gov't mucks a place up either through its direct actions or sometimes through inaction -- it then often takes further gov't action to restore a semblance of a state so that private enterprise can thrive -- as the mucked-up site is usually a cost center with minimal benefits for the 'foreseeable future" -- that's usually poison for private investors

Case in point -- Govt created the mess of the non flushing Back Bay in the early 19th Century through permitting the railroad embankment along Beacon St. and also the tidal power dam --- private enterprise was not going to fix this as there was no financial benefit for the "foreseeable future"

So the Commonwealth filled the Back Bay, sold the land, Boston laid out the streets, and entrepreneurs and institutions built the world class success of today's Back Bay

Similarly, without a kick start after the gov't finished off the old Kendall Sq.-- clearing the industry for the NASA ERC -- the new world class success of Kendall / Cambridge Center might never happen

In the 1960's the downtown Boston waterfront was a bunch of decaying wooden piers, decaying warehouses and parking lots -- the BRA "worked with private investors" and today there is another world class district

Well before the BIG DIG the South Boston Seaport / Innovation District was a combination of a working fish/cargo waterfront and Navy Yard -- after the Navy left there was a somewhat diminished working waterfront with a lot of underused warehouses that eventually fell to become parking lots

The Big Dig churned through the area so completely that very little of what had been a working port (essentially only the Massport Container Terminal and Cruise Terminal) + some miscellaneous stuff in the remnant of the Navy Yard (Boston Marine Industrial Park) was still viable -- at that point the BRA, BCEC and Massport acting as commercial developer / landlord & Feds with the Courthouse regenerated interest in developing by developing -- today's Innovation District has many paternal aspects

Will the ID be another Kendall / Cambridge Center -- doubtful -- there is no MIT
Will the ID become another Back Bay -- also doubtful -- that was a unique confluence
will it become as successful as the downtown waterfront -- I'm betting yes -- it has world class access to Logan and I-93/I-90/I-95

will it turn out to be a large generator of revenues for the City -- I'm betting yes on that as Vertex will be followed by others and eventually the issue will be moot
 
^^^
Good Response.

"will it become as successful as the downtown waterfront -- I'm betting yes -- it has world class access to Logan and I-93/I-90/I-95

will it turn out to be a large generator of revenues for the City -- I'm betting yes on that as Vertex will be followed by others and eventually the issue will be moot"

you could be right........Time will tell.

The major issue I think I have is Housing. I don't see the numbers making sense for the working class and even the upperclass. 400 to 800K condos are just unaffordable for the masses right now. But like you said Vertex might be able to change everything.

I do believe the development process is very tainted in this city. And sometimes not for the Taxpayers best interests.
 
Last edited:
026-20.jpg
 
The BIGGEST SCAM on the Massachusetts Taxpayers is the build up to the Seaport District.

Since our political hacks just coughed up 71 Million dollars to help private developer Joe Fallon find a tenant to lease out his Fan Pier project. The taxpayers are now going to have to cough up another 300 Million if the Mayor and the rest of the hacks get their way to build a new Boston Convention Center.

Guess who is pushing pressure on the development. It just happens to be the Land owner "Developers John Drew and Stephen Karp who are considering building multiple hotels on the South Boston Waterfront, though much depends on the fate of a proposed Boston Convention and Exhibition Center expansion." http://www.bankerandtradesman.com/
Click to expand...

These people are TRAITORS to the American Taxpayers. Don't threaten us to waste taxpayers money to enrich all your friends.
The Mayor and Governor have no morals or ethics. More bailouts and stimulus to hook up their personal friends with free money. These people should be in JAIL.
Whatever happened to the process of somebody buying a piece of property either build on it or sell it. When did the TAXPAYERS have to be involved with every project being built in the city at this point.
If the BCEC project goes through it will be the saddest day in Mass. More Taxpayers money thrown down the drain so a bunch of brainless Union hacks can vote for the same morons that continue to get elected. What a vicious process.

I have an idea. Lets print 1 Trillion dollars in U.S. Currency and stuff it all down FAT MENINO FACE

I have no problem in people working hard and becoming billionaires on connections and networks. I do have a problem when somebody is stealing our tax money to enrich themselves and their friends
 
Last edited:
Cronyism and self-serving cheerleading of public projects on the Seaport is not new. It was going on with CAT/Tunnel, BCEC and also failed proposals such as the Megaplex.

Consider:

http://www.seaportalliance.org/SAND/Archive/020801massport.html

And another "jump start" article in 2009.

http://www.seaportalliance.org/SAND/Archive/091201bcec.html

There have been scores of articles about jump starting the Seaport with "Just One More Public Project" with no examination of private sector benchmarks. IMO, the Boston Chamber of Commerce and NAIOP focus an inordinate amount of advocacy on how to stimulate public projects rather than promoting private sector investment.

All said, I think you should back off on the angry screeds and personal attacks. For example, Menino has little to do with the BCEC expansion plan, and has not been pounding the pavement to push it forward. I wouldn't care what you do, but I think you make good points and then ruin them by flaming Menino, Shen, etc. What good does that do?
 
Sicilian said:
Cronyism and self-serving cheerleading of public projects on the Seaport is not new. It was going on with CAT/Tunnel, BCEC and also failed proposals such as the Megaplex.

Consider:

http://www.seaportalliance.org/SAND/Archive/020801massport.html

And another "jump start" article in 2009.

http://www.seaportalliance.org/SAND/Archive/091201bcec.html

There have been scores of articles about jump starting the Seaport with "Just One More Public Project" with no examination of private sector benchmarks. IMO, the Boston Chamber of Commerce and NAIOP focus an inordinate amount of advocacy on how to stimulate public projects rather than promoting private sector investment.

All said, I think you should back off on the angry screeds and personal attacks. For example, Menino has little to do with the BCEC expansion plan, and has not been pounding the pavement to push it forward. I wouldn't care what you do, but I think you make good points and then ruin them by flaming Menino, Shen, etc. What good does that do?
Click to expand...

Sicilian, I appreciate you reading my posts and understanding what is going on with the city politics. As my personal attacks on the Mayor, Shen, that is just about emotions. The reality is I actually hate all the politicans. From
Barney Frank, John Kerry, Sal Dimasi, Deval Patrick never mind the small politicans like Mike Capuano, Martha Coakley, Micheal Kinvealy, Tim Cahill ect .

As for taking my posts serioulsy because I make some valid points in them. I guess I have never looked at posting a more credible blog because I just like chatting about how I see angles being played out. I look more up to bloggers like you, Keith, Lurker, Tobyguy, Van, Whilander and others to write more of the educated views on actual facts & things I don't understand about projects and people. I'm the blogger that sees the angles and the players that are scheming on trying to either make a buck or a dream come true.

I feel that in the next couple of years the U.S. Taxpayers will start to realize what I have figured out. Hardworking Family Americans are letting our leaders with big ambitions, Ego and small brains making their Free Country into a complete code of regulations and taxes. Pretty soon we wont be able to step outside our house and breathe air without paying sometype of tax. I'm not saying we don't need rules and regulations, But they need to be drawn up without anybody having sometype of agenda.

The reality is the City of Boston is a beautiful place with so much potential. We really don't need to be given taxbreaks to anybody.
If the politicans just focused on doing the right thing. Boston could be one of the GREAT cities. But the political machine continues to keep the lock down on this state. This needs to change for Boston to get to the next level.

If anything the City is getting worse with somebody getting killed everyday.
We really need change.
 
Last edited:
Sicilian said:
Cronyism and self-serving cheerleading of public projects on the Seaport is not new. It was going on with CAT/Tunnel, BCEC and also failed proposals such as the Megaplex.....There have been scores of articles about jump starting the Seaport with "Just One More Public Project" with no examination of private sector benchmarks. ?
Click to expand...

Scil & Riff, etc ....

Sure the Seaport Innovation District development looks like an elephant's pregnancy -- but things around here just take time -- sometime a lot of time -- often with several false starts and never-were-to-be's (e.g. Magaplex; Rt-128 plans for which dated from the 1920's; Big Dig; various T extensions planned in the 1960's and still TBD).

My best though imperfect model is the evolution of MIT's badkyard -- aka Kendall Sq.

When I was an undergrad at MIT in the early 1970's -- there was serious talk of either building a new Cambridge City Hall complex or low income housing on the land which has become Cambridge Center

MIT had built Tech Square in the 1960's and was planning more of the same -- but some folks in Cambridge wanted the nearly vacant land (which had been cleared for the ill-fted NASA Electronics Reserch Center in the early 1960's) returned to Blue Collar manufacturing, or if not that then at least housing for never to be again blue collar workers

Luckily time passed and the evoloution of Kendall Sq. was delayed sufficiently that AI alley came and went and along came Whitehead Instiute and the rest is history -- just 30 years late

I'm guessing that 30 years from now (perhaps less) that a lot of the potential of the Seaport / Innovation District will be realized -- However, not necessarily the way that the planners currently envision it

Just the past 5 years has changed the landscape in that area in a remarkable fashion.
 
whighlander said:
Scil & Riff, etc ....

Sure the Seaport Innovation District development looks like an elephant's pregnancy -- but things around here just take time -- sometime a lot of time -- often with several false starts and never-were-to-be's (e.g. Magaplex; Rt-128 plans for which dated from the 1920's; Big Dig; various T extensions planned in the 1960's and still TBD).

My best though imperfect model is the evolution of MIT's badkyard -- aka Kendall Sq.

When I was an undergrad at MIT in the early 1970's -- there was serious talk of either building a new Cambridge City Hall complex or low income housing on the land which has become Cambridge Center

MIT had built Tech Square in the 1960's and was planning more of the same -- but some folks in Cambridge wanted the nearly vacant land (which had been cleared for the ill-fted NASA Electronics Reserch Center in the early 1960's) returned to Blue Collar manufacturing, or if not that then at least housing for never to be again blue collar workers

Luckily time passed and the evoloution of Kendall Sq. was delayed sufficiently that AI alley came and went and along came Whitehead Instiute and the rest is history -- just 30 years late

I'm guessing that 30 years from now (perhaps less) that a lot of the potential of the Seaport / Innovation District will be realized -- However, not necessarily the way that the planners currently envision it

Just the past 5 years has changed the landscape in that area in a remarkable fashion.
Click to expand...


Whighlander, That is a tough comparison the evolution of Kendall Square vs Seaport District.
In the 70's and 80's were very tough times for America. I felt Cambridge was a very different place back then.
I'm not sure what the political & zoning issues or laws comparing both the city of Cambridge to the city of Boston are.

I know every town or city has their rules. But I feel that politics have stayed out of the way for Kendal Square to evolve. I could be completely wrong with that statement.
MIT & Harvard completely took over Cambridge and have pushed into Somerville throwing out pretty much every poor or middleclass family that was not on either Section 8 or sometype of public housing in the area. That is why those areas have evolved so well.

The politicans are trying to force development into the SEAPORT when the heart of the city looks like a scene out of Private Ryan. I personally really can't believe the Mayor and his cronies are collected BID from downtown companies when the entire development process was MUCKED by them.

I just don't see the city of Cambridge doing things like the city of Boston does. I also think Harvard and MIT make all the rules.
 
TheRifleman said:
Whighlander, That is a tough comparison the evolution of Kendall Square vs Seaport District.
In the 70's and 80's were very tough times for America. I felt Cambridge was a very different place back then.
I'm not sure what the political & zoning issues or laws comparing both the city of Cambridge to the city of Boston are...... I just don't see the city of Cambridge doing things like the city of Boston does. I also think Harvard and MIT make all the rules.
Click to expand...

Riff.... in the 1970' there was a bumper sticker that paraphased Julius Caesar -- "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres" --- "Cantabridgia est divisa duas partes .. Harvard and MIT"

This was actually quite accurate except that the two invasions of Cambridge happened in totally differenet ways -- Hahhhhhvd had its campus, radclife, the Observatory and a few other further flung places which it accquired in the 19th Century

By contrast MIT began buying at very low costs decaying and derilict industrial properties in its immediate vicinity mostly in the 1950's, 60', 70's

The result is MIT has a booming if not necessarily ideal urban landscape in Kendall Sq., University Park and Tech Sq. -- it will fix the lack of urbanism in the next incarnation MIT 2030

Hahhhhhhhhvd is strugling with building on and next to its campus near the Sq. and has bought all that land in Alston whose potential is still unrealized.

The Seaport / Innovation District is something else -- it shares Kendall and Alston's heritage of derilict and deteriorating industrial era properties.

However, there are significant differences:
1) aside from the micro Babson campus -- there is no direct significant university involvement
2) existing mega players not present in either kendall or Alston whose plans may not necessarily be easily synchronized (e.g. Massport, Boston Marine Industrial Prk, BCEC Authority, T, Fan Pier and Seaport Sq. developers)

How will the Seaport / Innovation District evolve -- only time, the general state of the economy and Boston politics will tell
 
This is little off topic but my point comes down to the end for the Seaport Development.

I believe it all comes down to ECONOMICS and TIMING.

Do we move forward and blow into the robotic, space and energy revolution that will continue to keep the economy growing into a new world ERA. Or has our society had an enough of the consumption and are finally moving towards more personal freedom away from the banks, Govt and their giant ponzi scheme.
Is the piper finally time to collect all this massive amounts of DEBT ---1930's Depression might look like an economic growth compared to what is coming? With a class warfare and a civil war knocking at our door step more the future. Highly doubt that, but the Europe, Mideast are showing signs of breaking down. Forget about mentioning poor Japan.

The 80's seem to have the start of the greatest college & economic expansions in history. This is when Volker the FED chief jacked up interest rates to almost 18% and created a strong dollar so the next 20-30 years this is where the majority of economic growth came from. Refinancing houses, stock market bubble, Nasdaq bubble, Now the commds bubble.

At this point in history 2011 now the majority of our society is completely in debt and our solution comes down to inflate our way out of the debt . That will probably not work in the end. It will probably be the end of the FED and alot of things might need to change before we start really having natural economic expansion.

This is where the SEAPORT Development plays in. Nothing more than a taxpayers bust. The developers might have paid too much for the land and that is why they are pushing the city & state officials for tax breaks to find tenants or to build something that will attract more industry & people. Fallon, Karp, Drew, Hynes ECT, I don’t think the value in the end will be SEAPORT. I think it will move back to the heart of the city.
The Seaport District will be a commercially developed area with really no character to attract REAL FOOT TRAFFIC unless prices become more economically affordable for the majority of Masses. This will not be a destination spot for Boston.
I think they missed too many opportunities (AKA Kraft or Fenway park) and waited too long for this area to be developed.
Not to say the developers won’t make their money. The Seaport development just won’t be anything that would make a tourist or anybody else go out of their way to see, if they didn’t have to.
Click to expand...

Whigherland, I have also agreed that your theories could come true. A domino affect with Vertex and the area completely catches on like Kendal?
I just think the economics might come into play in this area in the end.

Just my opinion Hopefully I’m wrong.
 
Last edited:
^^^ Stadium reference... drink!!

At the rate of your posts today rifleman, i may not even make it to happy hour.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top