Beyond those three, Beverly is up there and allows 6 story multifamily zoning by right along rantoul street next to the train station.
Blue Line extension to Lynn
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North Shore
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100% right; I'd missed that. Peabody not only abuts Downtown Salem's transit center (whatever that may extend to beyond the CR stop), but also straddles Western Ave aka Route 107. Which is horribly clogged-up with traffic lights once you cross the Salem/Lynn line--but still strikes me as a vital corridor. Also, this ROW you reference.
NoShJFK
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Is there ANY way that the Salem tunnel issue could be addressed? Logistically I don’t see how but you could EASILY justify a BLX that went as far North as Downtown Beverly. There has been a seemingly never ending row of 6-7 story condo towers being built along Rantoul St right around the Commuter Rail station. If that were ever a Blue Line stop - forget it Beverly would take off.
In a world where money and NIMBYs weren’t an issue I think you would see. A Blue Line extension that has a station in Downtown Salem right around the City Hall annex with a pedestrian walkway underground to the Commuter Rail station and garage. From
there splitting two ways - one toward Peabody Square and eventually terminating at Rt128 for a park and ride. The other spur would end in Downtown Beverly. This would feature an express track in the middle so Beverly and Peabody trains could hit DT Salem, Central Square, Logan, Aqarium, Government Center, MGH. Otherwise some of these rides would be painfully long
In a world where money and NIMBYs weren’t an issue I think you would see. A Blue Line extension that has a station in Downtown Salem right around the City Hall annex with a pedestrian walkway underground to the Commuter Rail station and garage. From
there splitting two ways - one toward Peabody Square and eventually terminating at Rt128 for a park and ride. The other spur would end in Downtown Beverly. This would feature an express track in the middle so Beverly and Peabody trains could hit DT Salem, Central Square, Logan, Aqarium, Government Center, MGH. Otherwise some of these rides would be painfully long
NoShJFK
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The major problem with getting the North Shore the rapid transit access it deserves is logistics make it so most routes would require a lot of tunneling which of course means high $$$$.
Wonderland to Downtown Salem would be around 9.5 miles. To Downtown Beverly would be 10 miles. To Peabody Square maybe 11.
That’s NSRL type money
Wonderland to Downtown Salem would be around 9.5 miles. To Downtown Beverly would be 10 miles. To Peabody Square maybe 11.
That’s NSRL type money
F-Line to Dudley
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No...it shouldn't require any tunneling to get to Lynn or Downtown Salem. Where are you getting the notion that this requires punitive tunneling?
NoShJFK
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My bad - the way I worded that was totally not what I intended - I didn’t mean the whole thing had to be a tunnel. I meant with that long distance plus tunneling it would quickly add up.
It’s funny because I’ve livedon the North Shore virtually my entire life (save a year in the financial district) and I’ve ridden the CR a zillion times. But I’m not quite sure..isn’t the ROW not really wide enough for both CR & BL? (asking not telling) In some spots it sure is but I feel like in more than a few it’s not.
Although in regards to Downtown Salem I’m pretty sure tunneling would be necessary for a station (I consider “Downtown” to be beyond the intersection of Mill-Washington-Canal).
F-Line to Dudley
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No. "No tunneling" = no tunneling. The ROW is graded for 4 tracks because the B&M a hundred years ago intended to quad track it and did all the earth moving in prep for that all points north of the river. See all of the bridges in Lynn that are built for it. And you would not need a tunnel in Downtown Salem. It would stub out at Mill St. on the surface, and the pre-1987 Commuter Rail station in the pit would be reactivated for superstation transfers.
I'll screencap it again...this was studied for the 2004 PMT:
This isn't a wild speculative pitch, insofar as you have to build to Lynn first to put it on the board. Lynn-Salem has got mega ridership and a comparably very low capital cost all while sticking strictly to the Eastern Route ROW.
F-Line to Dudley
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Blue-eats-CR for the station. Platforms would be half as long, and probably stacked a little bit westerly so the Track 3 & 4 berths of the Burrill St. overpass get freed back up. Historic Depot building might need to be moved off its foundation, and a parking row in the South lot might need to go to accommodate the Blue side (but the station would not need as much car parking in a rapid transit future because of the much denser bus shares). All should fit within existing MBTA property lines.
The only land acquisitions you'd need on a Lynn-Salem extension (assuming stops @ East Lynn/Chatham St., Swampscott, a possible spacer @ Essex St./Swampscott Cemetery for Mall walkshed, Salem State U./Jefferson Ave., and Downtown Salem) are in Salem along Margin St. for the Downtown station final approach: Salem PD's back parking lot (assume the City can be negotiated with/compensated), the plumbing supply store on Margin for the platforms + busway, and the ex-bank/current insurance broker on the corner of Mill for the headhouse.
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Inb4 F-Line does his thing...
I don't think a Commuter Rail stop at Wonderland is as helpful as it seems. Who is it intended for? Riders going from Wonderland to downtown already have direct service via the Blue Line (and probably faster service too, given that Chelsea-North Station alone takes 15 minutes). Riders who currently use the commuter rail from the North Shore to get to downtown also clearly aren't the target.
So then we are talking about North Shore commuters who intended to reach the Blue Line. Does a commuter rail infill at Wonderland help them? Well, perhaps. But...
Wonderland already is the anchor for a sprawling network of North Shore bus routes. Those routes already offer a one-seat ride from Wonderland to the commuter rail stations at Lynn (439, 441, 442, 455), Swampscott (455 and 441), and Salem (450W, 455), plus additional one-seat rides to Marblehead, Nahant, Saugus, and areas of Lynn, Swampscott, and Salem which are not walkable from the stations.
If you have a two-seat ride from your house to downtown, which entails walking a couple of blocks to your local bus stop and then transferring at Wonderland, are you really likely to replace that journey with an extra leg on the commuter rail?
It is true that there are some three-seat journeys that might be improved by a CR station at Wonderland; there are some North Shore bus routes which do not reach Wonderland, and require riders to transfer at either Salem or Lynn to a second bus. (For exampole, the 429, 435, 436, and 451.) Those journeys would still be three-seaters, but probably the commuter rail would be faster and more reliable between Lynn and Wonderland than the buses are.
The North Shore's problem is that the Blue Line transfer hub needs to be relocated from Wonderland to Lynn. Local buses need to slog an extra four to six miles -- in some cases doubling their overall running length, and in some cases spending two of those miles just straight-up traveling non-stop through a marsh.
For comparison -- imagine if all of the routes feeding into Forest Hills had to be extended to Ruggles, or if -- as historically was the case -- all of the Quincy buses has to be extended to Ashmont or Fields Corner.
We know that a large fraction of North Shore commuters need to get to the Blue Line; we know this because they keep filling up the buses that run to Wonderland. My guess is that most of those journeys would not be improved by a Wonderland Commuter Rail stop -- at most you'd convert a long two-seat journey into a somewhat shorter three-seat journey.
The name of the game here is to restore the wildly successful rapid transit service from Wonderland to Lynn which existed until 1940 and which was originally planned for restoration as quickly as eight years later. Extend the Blue Line back to Lynn.
I don't think a Commuter Rail stop at Wonderland is as helpful as it seems. Who is it intended for? Riders going from Wonderland to downtown already have direct service via the Blue Line (and probably faster service too, given that Chelsea-North Station alone takes 15 minutes). Riders who currently use the commuter rail from the North Shore to get to downtown also clearly aren't the target.
So then we are talking about North Shore commuters who intended to reach the Blue Line. Does a commuter rail infill at Wonderland help them? Well, perhaps. But...
Wonderland already is the anchor for a sprawling network of North Shore bus routes. Those routes already offer a one-seat ride from Wonderland to the commuter rail stations at Lynn (439, 441, 442, 455), Swampscott (455 and 441), and Salem (450W, 455), plus additional one-seat rides to Marblehead, Nahant, Saugus, and areas of Lynn, Swampscott, and Salem which are not walkable from the stations.
If you have a two-seat ride from your house to downtown, which entails walking a couple of blocks to your local bus stop and then transferring at Wonderland, are you really likely to replace that journey with an extra leg on the commuter rail?
It is true that there are some three-seat journeys that might be improved by a CR station at Wonderland; there are some North Shore bus routes which do not reach Wonderland, and require riders to transfer at either Salem or Lynn to a second bus. (For exampole, the 429, 435, 436, and 451.) Those journeys would still be three-seaters, but probably the commuter rail would be faster and more reliable between Lynn and Wonderland than the buses are.
The North Shore's problem is that the Blue Line transfer hub needs to be relocated from Wonderland to Lynn. Local buses need to slog an extra four to six miles -- in some cases doubling their overall running length, and in some cases spending two of those miles just straight-up traveling non-stop through a marsh.
For comparison -- imagine if all of the routes feeding into Forest Hills had to be extended to Ruggles, or if -- as historically was the case -- all of the Quincy buses has to be extended to Ashmont or Fields Corner.
We know that a large fraction of North Shore commuters need to get to the Blue Line; we know this because they keep filling up the buses that run to Wonderland. My guess is that most of those journeys would not be improved by a Wonderland Commuter Rail stop -- at most you'd convert a long two-seat journey into a somewhat shorter three-seat journey.
The name of the game here is to restore the wildly successful rapid transit service from Wonderland to Lynn which existed until 1940 and which was originally planned for restoration as quickly as eight years later. Extend the Blue Line back to Lynn.
Possibly as a destination. Kick a few bucks to the Markey campaign and get a no fuss alternative to getting there when the land nearby starts getting developed. I'm assuming that this Blue Line connector would be a walking path of some sort.
Getting Blue->Lynn done will be a lot more difficult and a much longer term thing.
Getting Blue->Lynn done will be a lot more difficult and a much longer term thing.
found5dollar
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I think this is the right place for this as connecting Wonderland to the commuter rail would reasonably be a first step to extending the blue line, but please feel free to move if I am mistaken.
www-wcvb-com.cdn.ampproject.org
Leaders look to connect Blue Line's Wonderland to commuter rail
Local leaders are now working on a plan, for the Blue Line, hoping to connect the commuter rail to the Wonderland MBTA stop.
www-wcvb-com.cdn.ampproject.org
themissinglink
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Was the DEIR for the Blue Line extension to Lynn ever completed?
stick n move
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I think this is the right place for this as connecting Wonderland to the commuter rail would reasonably be a first step to extending the blue line, but please feel free to move if I am mistaken.
Leaders look to connect Blue Line's Wonderland to commuter rail
Local leaders are now working on a plan, for the Blue Line, hoping to connect the commuter rail to the Wonderland MBTA stop.
These are the common sense solutions we need to see! Its great that they mentioned the glx has lit a fire under them to complete more projects. This is exactly what should be happening. This along with the new zoning proposal for land around commuter rail stations being densified is some of the best transit decisions the state has made in decades, possibly ever.
It is a pretty long distance between the CR line and wonderland, but similar transfers have been done before. Mets-Willets point in Queens comes to mind. Its great to see movement on a multiple projects at once and especially the red-blue connector as well.
I'm sorry but I completely disagree. I think this proposed station is eyes/ears closed wishful thinking in the short term and a massive opportunity cost in the intermediate-long term. It's been discussed at length on this forum whether the connection between the proposed station and wonderland is a reasonable transfer, and in a vaccum I don't think the distance is a killer but the context makes this a dud in waiting. The only real draw of this station is the blue line connection, really the connection to the airport. What you're asking people, with luggage, to do is:
1) Get to the CR station, which for most is going to be by car
2) Take the CR to wonderland
3) Make an at best inconvenient transfer to the blue line
4) Transfer to a shuttle bus to get to their actual terminal
Would this really be better than running a northern SL1 equivalent from Chelsea that hits all the terminals? I certainly don't think so. As someone who lives on the red line and has made the RL-SL-Airport trip more than my fair share of times, that's already the most transit I'm willing to deal with /w luggage. If passionate about transit me wouldn't ever consider that 4 seat ride with a >quarter mile transfer, why would the general public? A northern SL1 in the short term and blue line -> Lynn as a more permanent solution seems much more common sense to me.
Now in the intermediate-long run this is also prohibiting building a regional station that could actually serve revere. The proposed location near wonderland is remarkable in finding the only plot of dead space in an otherwise wonderfully dense city. Could you get some TOD there? Sure probably but you're limited by the wetlands. But just a bit farther south you could have a station where 1a/16/60 meet, three state highways begging to be redesigned with center running BRT.
WestMedford
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The distance between Wonderland and the Eastern Route is about 1,200 ft, so it’d be 5-7 minutes station to station (including the time it takes to go vertical, because I imagine the connector being elevated). Seems kind of a far distance when you can connect to the airport at the new Chelsea via SL and the transfer is literally right there vs the Wonderland walk to BL (absent SL Chelsea bridge delay risk).
Revere just needs a CR station there to serve the site and the development will follow. Lack of access is biggest issue with site and something like 80% of development in Boston region in past 15 years has been areas within 1/2 mile of a rapid transit or CR station which would boost development chances at the site significantly. The connector seems unnecessary and the CR station alone is the real need. Local trips to/from Lynn would still favor the bus given the transfer proximity at Wonderland and favorable bus frequencies vs walking 7 minutes to *just miss* the CR and trek back to Wonderland for the bus or be stuck at the CR station for an hour. Connector makes more sense if regional rail was underway but that still seems far off.
My last point: I get the motivation for Revere’s advocacy for the “connector.” But if you’re Lynn … aren’t you flipping out of your mind that the feds and state are still playing this game of these cheap, backhanded “solutions” to the false promises of Blue Line to Lynn over the past literally 75 years?? Every time they come up with or revive (in this case) old ideas to lipstick on a pig and try to avoid doing what really needs to be done which is extend BL to Lynn (and beyond) is just so blatantly insulting to that community it’s just expected at this point. Just do the right thing and get BL to Lynn (and beyond) done!!
Brattle Loop
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I had to do some research to understand what you're referencing (some basic info starting on Page 57 of this BPDA presentation), and, uh...what?
What that thing is, is a relative of the NSRL, previously discussed (in some form) in the NSRL thread, the Crazy Transit Pitches thread, or both (it certainly deserves to be in both). As I recall the discussion when similar ideas came up previously, the cost bloat was feared to be enormous, given the inevitable difficulty and expense involved in a water crossing. I don't know what you're referring to with the "NS folks" designation, but one of the issues such a tunnel would have compared to the NSRL proper is that it would sever the Green and Orange connections inherent to that route (and Back Bay is only a partial replacement given the lack of proper Green connection, and then only on the southside lines that stop there), and, worse, it would actively remove the Green and Orange connections from any and all Eastern Route trains routed into this tunnel.
It's a proposal best suited to collapse under its own weight. If you're going to built a transit tunnel under the harbor, it should be Green, with a connection between the Transitway and the Central Subway; end Silver's forced dependence on buses and the Ted Williams, let the LRVs serve Seaport transit and the airport, and have proper connections to the other lines and bootstrap the northeastern quadrant of the Urban Ring. That's still Crazy Transit Pitches territory (at least until Baker & Company are gone), but it's better than that idea.
Absolutely agree, just wanted to add to this by noting that this is exactly the kind of project you don't want the T to be allowed to do (because then they'll say they don't need BLX to Lynn for another two decades, at minimum), and for a far more important reason than the annoyance of an airport transfer like this. CR at Wonderland, in addition to being cumbersome and likely to be underutilized, does nothing to fix the massive inefficiency Lynn's lack of rapid transit service creates in the bus network, with all of the routes that have to burn all those miles to Wonderland. (Somewhere in one of these threads F-Line had a much better explanation of exactly how Lynn's lack of Blue Line service screws over the bus network.) Let them build CR at Wonderland and they'll declare "mission accomplished", the Eastern Route has its Blue Line transfer with 'direct' Airport service, have a nice ribbon cutting, and then go away, leaving the screwed-up bus network completely unfixed, to the detriment of every existing and potential North Shore bus/transit rider. Just being subpar-to-useless would be bad enough; useless and potentially actively harmful would be much worse.