Bowker Overpass replacement?

AMF -- I take strong exception to the suggestion that I while I don't live in Boston -- that I don't want a liveble city .....

The reality - in Greater Boston there are a lot more people making the choice my way than your way -- and we tend to vote perhaps with an enhanced level of participation as well.

Whig, completely agree with your latter statement. That's why I said, "MassDOT represents everyone in the state (including Khata and Whiglander), not just those of us in Boston that want a liveable city." I wasn't taking a potshot at you. I was acknowledging that your wants are every bit as legitimate as mine (externalities excluded).
But, I wonder if you're really that concerned about Boston being a "liveable city". If Boston existed only as an amusement park city with all the same museums, restaurants, and shops, but none of the people, wouldn't you be just as happy? (Or perhaps happier).
 
Whig, completely agree with your latter statement. That's why I said, "MassDOT represents everyone in the state (including Khata and Whiglander), not just those of us in Boston that want a liveable city." I wasn't taking a potshot at you. I was acknowledging that your wants are every bit as legitimate as mine (externalities excluded).
But, I wonder if you're really that concerned about Boston being a "liveable city". If Boston existed only as an amusement park city with all the same museums, restaurants, and shops, but none of the people, wouldn't you be just as happy? (Or perhaps happier).

AMF -- No -- you can't have a just "Amusement Park City" -- the closest to that kind of place that I can think of is Venice -- even there you need to have background services to support the "Extras and others" who play a role to make the city amusing.

I've often described Boston as the most humanly influenced city in the US and possibly the modern world. I also find it one of the most fascinating cities among all of the cities where I've lived for a short time or visited on my various travels. Yes, Boston has fine restaurants, some exceptional museums, one of the 3 best halls to hear music performed by one of the world's elite ochestras, lots of nice old houses to visit, the Freedom Tril, the oldest commissiond warship in world, and a very pleasant waterfront to walk along.

However to think that those are all there is in Boston would be to miss the main point entirely that I've tried to explain and expound upon in my various posts.

Boston has been a fascinating work of creation for nearly four centuries. I'm guessing that the Rev. Blackstone arrived about 1625 and constructed the first permanent dwelling where the Soldiers and Sailors monument is located on the Common. Actually as we found when the digging for old John Hancock tower was underway -- construction had already been done much earlier (though no permanent residences) -- a quite impressive fish weir (to be recreated as part of the new exhibit on the Charles at the MOS).

I've been a student of the evolution of Boston from a small settlement to an International Center for several decades. I've walked the perimeter of the original Shawmut Peninusula, every street in the Back Bay, to and fro between MIT and Castle Island. I've purchsed many maps, books and other documents which chronicle the process of the making of Boston and how it influenced the making of the US.

Ever since the John Winthrop party bought the Common from the Rev. B in 1630 -- and created the first publicly owned park in perhaps the world -- there has been a tension between public and private values and goals. This tension has played out in Boston in the transportation sector perhaps more so than any city in the US.

Nearly every square foot of soil or water within the city limits was once somewhere else -- often provoking major debate in the process. Early-on the courts had to decide about ownrship and permission to use tidelands [Today's Chapter 91]. Later there were disputes involving filling of the Back Bay and the other water and mud flats which make-up most of the highly developed parts of the City, and the places to be developed intensively for the next few decades [SPID, Beacon Park]. When the ancestors of the T started building rails in the streets and then in tunnels, back over 100 years ago, they faced many NIMBYs.

All of the above makes Boston (and Cambridge) not just a "city under glass" for tourists -- but a real-life organic entity -- a place of endless fascination -- perhaps even a bit of an obsession.

Note -- Yesterday was not only Flag Day -- it was the 237th birthday of the U.S. Army -- which was organied on what is now Cambridge Common -- also the place where George Washington accepted his command of the U.S. Army
 
If Lexingtonians demand highways to get to Boston, then I demand heavy rail running straight through their downtown at 7 min headways. A little extra wheel squeaking in the summer would be a nice touch too.

Ugr -- I would love to have the Red Line rumbling though Lexington Center carrying Commuters from Rt-128 to downtown without having to drive to Alewife. In particular I'd be the first one to walk to the Arlingon Heights Station to get to MIT without having to worry about parking anywhere and being able to walk to / from Logan without getting a ride to Alewife and without taking a bus to Harvard2

However -- I don't think it wil happen anytime soon -- Meanwhile we have to continue to have the highways to get to/from Boston -- there are no alternatives if the city is to retain its vitality
 
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

Whig, I have to believe, HAVE TO BELIEVE, that your last post was in jest. Either that or you've got Aspergers.

I asked, hypothetically (i.e., in a fantasy world), if you'd be just as happy visiting a city without residents but with all the cultural attractions you love. You responded by questioning the feasibility of such a city. That's not refuting my point, that's making my point. The people are only there to serve your back office needs. Then you expounded on:
Venice
Fish Weirs
Chapter 91
Flag Day
 
"I don't think it will happen anytime soon" more or less sums up the problem. Except you should have said "It won't happen ever because suburbanites will block it as a nuisance while simultaneously demanding similar nuisances be built all over the city for their enjoyment."
 
Yeah, I'm sure Boston would lose all its vitality if it weren't for the valiant efforts of Lexingtonians.

I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse or genuinely confused. His reference to "amusement park city" meant that out-of-towners treat Boston like an amusement park. They think of it as a place to drive to and from, and not a real city, where people live and who dislike being covered by highway ramps and overpasses that exist primarily for the convenience of non-residents.
 
Whig, I have to believe, HAVE TO BELIEVE, that your last post was in jest. Either that or you've got Aspergers.

I asked, hypothetically (i.e., in a fantasy world), if you'd be just as happy visiting a city without residents but with all the cultural attractions you love. You responded by questioning the feasibility of such a city. That's not refuting my point, that's making my point. The people are only there to serve your back office needs. Then you expounded on:
Venice
Fish Weirs
Chapter 91
Flag Day

AMF -- I took your question as a somewhat fancical one -- but I thought that it presented an opportunty to provide some of the motivation for my responses within the ArchBoston Forum

I was simply saying that you misread me if you think that just because I live in Lexington that I'm not a Bostonian anymore than someone who lives next to the Mayor in Hyde Park

The lines on the map throughout eastern MA and even a bit beyond are just local political boundaries without much to say in the context of transportation planning and excecution -- these (Trnsportation Systems) are and need to be decided on a larger scale since their presensce or absence and some of the details affect everyone in Greater Boston

Perhaps I should have just posted the above -- I guess I'm doubly sorry that i was so verbose and that you apparenty ignored the gist of my post

PS: [the following has been added in jest] -- I do however agree with some wag who once said that the only thing wrong with Paris was Parisians -- LOL
 
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Yeah, I'm sure Boston would lose all its vitality if it weren't for the valiant efforts of Lexingtonians.

I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse or genuinely confused. His reference to "amusement park city" meant that out-of-towners treat Boston like an amusement park. They think of it as a place to drive to and from, and not a real city, where people live and who dislike being covered by highway ramps and overpasses that exist primarily for the convenience of non-residents.

Mathew -- that is just plain ignorant of reality

When I walk down the street to pick up a Pizza at Jimmy's I don't notice that actualy I'm no longer in Lexington -- I cross the border into Arlington about 100 feet before I get to Jimmy's and that the trash trucks picking up at Jimmy's don't pick up my trash. However, when something comes-up in the Arlington community dealing with Arlington Heights -- i'm keenly aware of it -- In fact both by distance and relevance to my ordinary life -- Arlinton Heights is a lot closer to me than Lexington Center.

You can no more extract Boston from the midst of the Arlingtons, Walthams, Lincolns, Burlingtons and yes Lexington -- than you can make those places stand alone without Boston in the midst.

Personaly, I have little interest in Springfield or Pittsfield -- having been to those places less frequenty than I've been to London. However, everything within I-495 and a fair amount of what happens in Worcester County does inter-relate. That's why I've long advocated creation of a Metro Greater Boston (County) which would own the T, Logan, the local Highways -- then the decisions could be made by the people who have a significant interest in their care and feeding.

Note -- you do no good for your cause by degradating and depracating the interests of the non-Boston-proper citizens of Greater Boston -- while you may have more day to day contact with the underside of the Bowker -- we are all in this together
 
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Whig, the whole "we're all Bostonians" theme misses the point. You want/need to get to Boston but you either like driving your car, or recognize that mass transit is impractical in a town as (relatively) sparsely populated as Lexington. So you demand new or expanded or rebuilt highways into and within the city. That benefits you. That hurts me.

I don't demand new highways to Lexington (or Lincoln or Bedford or wherever) because I don't need to go there regularly. So "we're all in this together" falls on deaf ears to me.
 
If somebody needs to go to Boston (and I grant there are many who do), they should organize their life to facilitate that need. They have no right to demand that I organize my life to ease their need. I choose to live in Boston in part, because I "need" to be here. Folks like Wighlander want to be able to live elsewhere yet feel entitled to the same access I have.

You want easy access to the city? Come live here with us. Otherwise, accept that life choices involve trade-offs.
 
Lexington has no rail transit or commuter rail, although they could have had them. Instead they wish to remain insulated against so-called undesirables filtering into their little piece of heaven via rail transit. The Red Line extension to Arlington and Lexington was killed in the 70's by the towns people, and commuter rail to Lexington was allowed to die as well.

So, they'll just have to live with congested roadways into Boston.
 
If somebody needs to go to Boston (and I grant there are many who do), they should organize their life to facilitate that need. They have no right to demand that I organize my life to ease their need. I choose to live in Boston in part, because I "need" to be here. Folks like Wighlander want to be able to live elsewhere yet feel entitled to the same access I have.

You want easy access to the city? Come live here with us. Otherwise, accept that life choices involve trade-offs.

But dis is 'murica! We done gets what we wants!
 
Lexington has no rail transit or commuter rail, although they could have had them. Instead they wish to remain insulated against so-called undesirables filtering into their little piece of heaven via rail transit. The Red Line extension to Arlington and Lexington was killed in the 70's by the towns people, and commuter rail to Lexington was allowed to die as well.

So, they'll just have to live with congested roadways into Boston.

Charlie -- it was one and the same

The proposal for the Red Line extension to Rt-128 was to run along the old Commuter Rail ROW {"Lexington and Arlington Railroad"} through Arlington and Lexington -- Actually Lexington was in favor of the line -- but Arlingtron killed it because of MBTA assessments for stations and the fear that people from out of town would park in Arlington neighborhoods to take the T

It then was provided in a recoverable fashion to the MWRA for a ROW of a sewer line and to the Minuteman Bikeway which is very popular with locals and used by some to actually commute to Cambridge by bike

The T has the right to recover the ROW at anytime to complete the Red Line

The Commuter Rail actually continued to run until 1977 -- from the mid 1960's the B&M {successor to the Lexington and Arlington Railroad} ran one BudLiner per day each way with minimal use as by then Rt-2 provided fine access to Cambridge

Note that today the #77 bus provides rail-transit like frequency of service from Arlington Heights to Harvard Sq. and the #62 and #76 bus provide 2X per hour each route of rush hour service (1 per hour each off-peak) to/from Alewife and Lexington Center via Rt-2

However -- the really relevant point is that without the same highways that the suburbanite Greater Bostonians use -- the inner Bostonians couldn't get around very well either. Based on its historic structure -- the rail part of the T is not designed to connect one part of Boston within the city limits to another except radially -- to get around within Boston proper -- you need buses and just like cars they do well when they can travel on highways (e.g Turnpike Express Buses) and major arterials
 
Whig, the whole "we're all Bostonians" theme misses the point. You want/need to get to Boston but you either like driving your car, or recognize that mass transit is impractical in a town as (relatively) sparsely populated as Lexington. So you demand new or expanded or rebuilt highways into and within the city. That benefits you. That hurts me.

I don't demand new highways to Lexington (or Lincoln or Bedford or wherever) because I don't need to go there regularly. So "we're all in this together" falls on deaf ears to me.

AMF -- as I illustrated in another post to another thread -- getting around within Boston by means of only rail transit is very difficult if not impossible -- you need buses to complement the radial nature of the rails

I demostrated the difficulty in getting to/from the Mayor's house in Hyde Park to the Eastern Standard in Kenmore Sq and to/from Sculler's Jazz Club on Soldiers Field Rd. --Using the T's route planning application on their website. In both cases -- only someone with no access to a car, or a obsession with the T would chose to take the T over driving.

In fact that simple observation is the reason that Zipcar started and has been so successful in Boston / Cambridge. I suspect that once Zipcar goes all-electric with effecient and simple recharging at its parking spots coupled with smart phone- based reserving and paying for use -- that Zipcar will syphon off bus riders and perhaps even some rail riders
 
If somebody needs to go to Boston (and I grant there are many who do), they should organize their life to facilitate that need. They have no right to demand that I organize my life to ease their need. I choose to live in Boston in part, because I "need" to be here. Folks like Wighlander want to be able to live elsewhere yet feel entitled to the same access I have.

You want easy access to the city? Come live here with us. Otherwise, accept that life choices involve trade-offs.

Henry -- once you could say that (over 100 years ago) -- when the Boston Elewvated Railway and the earlier West End Street Railway was fully responsible for building, running and paying for the operations of the precursors to the T

Here's some of what the T has to say about its own history
On December 9, 1897, under the supervision of the Transit Commission, a lease was entered into with the West End Street Railway by which the property of that company was leased to the Boston Elevated Railway Company for a term of twenty-four years, eight months and nine days from October 1, 1897....

The General Court of Massachusetts realizing that good transportation was essential to any community and that good transportation could not be furnished on a flat 5 cent fare passed the so-called Public Control Act (July 1, 1918) designed to provide public operation of mass transportation for fares at rates sufficient to meet all costs of furninshing that service. ....

However -- your private universe closed when the MTA was created and the bulk of the funds started to come from the people outside of Boston proper

The Boston Elevated Railway existed under the Public Control Act until August 29, 1947. On that date, the Metropolitan Transit Authority came into being and absorbed the entire BERY system. The chief feature of the MTA was that it was created by the Legislature as a body politic, a political subdivision of the Commonwealth, after the purchase of all outstanding stock of the Boston Elevated Railway. The new Authority was limited to serving the citizens fo the original 14 cities and towns in Metropolitan Boston: Arlington, Belmont, Boston, Brookline, Cambridge, Chelsea, Everett, Malden, Medford, Milton, Revere, Somerville, and Watertown.

Later -- more burbs got involved
In 1957, the Legislature approved the Authority's plans for construction of a rapid transit line over the Newton Highlands Branch of the Boston and Albany Railroad. Boston and Albany had abandoned commuter rail operations on this line in May of 1958. The MTA aquired its title a month later. Service on the Highland Branch, using PCC trains, began on July 1, 1959 and is still in operation today, successfully carrying thousands of suburban residents to and from the core city. This Highland Branch was referred to as being the first of many "suburban breakthroughs".

During the late 1950's and early 1960's, the various transportation complexes in and around the greater Eastern Massachusetts metropolitan region were undergoing tremendous changes. The area's railroads were no longer interested in continuing to operate passenger services....

In Boston, the Metropolitan Transit Authority was not in a position to physically or logistically absorb the additional commuter railroad passenger crunch. Consequently, the railroads were annually subsidized to remain in the passenger carrying business. Moratoriums were put on future highway construction. Outlying cities and towns were fearful of MTA extensions into their areas because of the Authority's ever-increasing yearly deficits.

sounds kinda familiar but this is 50+ years ago

on August 3, 1964 the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority, having been voted into law in June of that year by the General Court (Acts of 1964, Chapter 563/M.G.L.A. Chapter 161A), became an ongoing concern...
This newly created Authority, like its predecessor the MTA, a body politic, and a political subdivision of the Commonwealth, greatly expanded its services from the original 14 cities and towns to encompass 78 municipalities. Immediately the "T" undertook a very aggressive advertising and marketing campaign to enhance its new image, to recapture lost ridership, build new customer usage, and expand its services with new equipment...

From that day forward -- your T is my T just like your expressway is my expressway and your turnpike is my turnpike

Like I said we are all in this together -- Greater Bostonians

PS: feel free to visit our nice quiet, yet active and dynamic community -- Lexington has lots to offer to a fellow Greater Bostonian
 
whighlander said:
From that day forward -- your T is my T just like your expressway is my expressway and your turnpike is my turnpike

Like I said we are all in this together -- Greater Bostonians

But yet, you still don't get it...

We all pay for highways, we all pay for transit...

But the residents of Boston are also paying extra for the highways, they have to deal with living underneath them. They have to deal with their neighborhoods being cut in half by highways, and cars coming in from the suburbs blocking up the streets and putting people in danger.

The money isn't the big deal. It's the intrusion of big ramps and overpasses, and the deaths caused by impatient drivers, that's what bothers us most in the city.

All your words are irrelevant unless they deal with that fact.
 
Whighlander is a suburban troll who posts too much and likes to take over threads with his uninformed blather. Don't feed the troll.
 
But yet, you still don't get it...

We all pay for highways, we all pay for transit...

But the residents of Boston are also paying extra for the highways, they have to deal with living underneath them. They have to deal with their neighborhoods being cut in half by highways, and cars coming in from the suburbs blocking up the streets and putting people in danger.

The money isn't the big deal. It's the intrusion of big ramps and overpasses, and the deaths caused by impatient drivers, that's what bothers us most in the city.

All your words are irrelevant unless they deal with that fact.

Talk of Ill informed

Where are the highest traffic densities -- in the suburbs

But this is pointless -- the "Transit at any cost" cohort is immune to logic and facts
 
Charlie -- it was one and the same

The proposal for the Red Line extension to Rt-128 was to run along the old Commuter Rail ROW {"Lexington and Arlington Railroad"} through Arlington and Lexington -- Actually Lexington was in favor of the line -- but Arlingtron killed it because of MBTA assessments for stations and the fear that people from out of town would park in Arlington neighborhoods to take the T

It then was provided in a recoverable fashion to the MWRA for a ROW of a sewer line and to the Minuteman Bikeway which is very popular with locals and used by some to actually commute to Cambridge by bike

The T has the right to recover the ROW at anytime to complete the Red Line

The Commuter Rail actually continued to run until 1977 -- from the mid 1960's the B&M {successor to the Lexington and Arlington Railroad} ran one BudLiner per day each way with minimal use as by then Rt-2 provided fine access to Cambridge

Note that today the #77 bus provides rail-transit like frequency of service from Arlington Heights to Harvard Sq. and the #62 and #76 bus provide 2X per hour each route of rush hour service (1 per hour each off-peak) to/from Alewife and Lexington Center via Rt-2.

Yeah, I know all about the aborted Red Line extension and the discontinued commuter rail.

The commuter rail that lapsed in 1977 should have been kept in operation. Route 2 does not provide access beyond Alewife, where its 8 lanes terminates abruptly into a sub-functional 1920's era parkway. Commuter rail or the Red Line extension should be revived today. Except, of course, Arlington and Lexington NIMBY's would stop any conversion of the Minuteman Bikeway to any type of rail; Red Line extension, light rail or commuter rail. They would use the 4F argument, that the corridor is now "park land", which they would undoubtedly win with lawsuits.

No, Lexington is content to remain in it's insulated, auto-centric Ozzie and Harriet vision of white flight suburbia. Just don't expect more highways to be built in Cambridge and Boston to feed that auto-centric model.
 

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