Bring Back Wonderland

[davem]

Would anyone else want to see a new Wonderland amusement park built? Anyone who has been to the Jersey Shore (especially Wildwood with Morey's Piers, screw Seaside and that douchebag show) can vouch for how great coasters mix with the ocean.

Old Orchard Beach is another, closer example, minus a real coaster.

Perhaps it could be mixed with the Casino proposal, if it does get shoved into that area. I feel like Revere is nice, but it could really be something if that amusemnt feel is brought back. A close, kitchy amusement area is also something that Boston is missing.

Am I nuts, or does anyone else think this could be cool?

http://www.celebrateboston.com/revere-beach/amusement-park.htm

 

[datadyne007]

You're definitely not nuts. I've pondered this same question myself. I think a boardwalk/amusement park/casino mix at Wonderland would be awesome. The name alone is awesome. The branding is already done and comes with a legacy ("Next Stop Wonderland")

Six Flags is so far away and certainly not transit accessible (not even the CR). I think this would be great to have at the end of the Blue Line.

 

[Beton Brut]

I think a boardwalk/amusement park/casino mix at Wonderland would be awesome.

Unless you have to live with all of it...

I'm old enough to remember the decline of the amusements in the 70s. It was a scene worthy of Cormac McCarthy. There's no going back to the good old days.

Bring on the condos and the yuppies. They'll vote out the thugs and half-wits who run Revere. Then maybe the place can have a proper rebirth. Consider, Shirley Ave is closer to Downtown Boston than Centre Street in JP. And there's a beach...

 

[Ron Newman]

Shirley Ave is closer to Downtown Boston than Centre Street in JP.

But I can walk from Downtown Boston to Centre Street in JP. Or, more realistically, bike. Can't do either to get to Revere.

I too like the idea of an Old Orchard Beach-style amusement park in Revere.

 

[Beton Brut]

Can't [walk or bike] to get to Revere.

I'm only considering the travel time/distance for commuters to and from downtown employment centers. Am I a fool to think that in time, Revere can evolve into a mixed income urban satellite of Boston, on the strength of access to heavy-rail transit, and proximity to other local resources and amenities (the ocean, and the airport)?

 

[Nexis4jersey]

Maybe they should Coney Island it , add more rides , a new park , high rises , hotels , retail...etc....make it new , but keep some of the old.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

I have to agree with Beton Brut, even though I wish it wasn't so.

We're living in a different time, now, and the heyday of small parks a la what Wonderland once was is gone - never to return.

Coney Island survived because of 180 years of storied history.

Six Flags, Canobie Lake, Disneyworld, etc.? That's the new standard for what an amusement park is. Huge, flashy, pay at the door and be gouged on concessions resorts. The kind of developments that are only part of any city so much as that's where their mailing address happens to be - the kind of place kept tidily isolated from its surroundings, a world unto itself.

Wonderland's not coming back. And you have to ask yourself... even if you did find yourself in the position to go in and boardwalk-ize Revere Beach Boulevard between Beach and Revere Streets, even if you could get an amusement park with a casino going in that area, even if you could get some mixed retail-residential-hotel high rises in there to tie the new property together...

Would you really want to? Would what you've bought be worth the cost, really? Far from creating a new urban satellite in Revere, you'd in all likelihood be signing the death warrant for Revere as an actual town. You'd be creating a clear barrier in the place formerly known as Revere - as surely as if you'd built a freeway down through that place instead.

And lest we forget, if you did this, Wonderland's current status as the end of the Blue Line would become permanent. Forever. Kiss BLX to Lynn goodbye if you did this.

I don't think it's worth it.

But hey, speaking of Six Flags...!

Six Flags is so far away and certainly not transit accessible (not even the CR).

Six Flags isn't even transit accessible from Springfield. The closest bus stop is 1.8 miles away, according to google, which suggests you would then take a taxi or drive the rest of the way. (A ~15 minute shuttle bus service could fix this, as it's a 6 mile drive between the two.)

Still, I imagine that I just might be banging on the drum of 'Commuter Rail to Springfield!' for the rest of my life if I have to. It's more than worth doing.

 

[Semass]

I would personally like to see the dog track redeveloped as a soccer-specific stadium for the Revolution. With proximity to Downtown, a huge new garage that would be mostly vacant during games, Blue Line access and even some calls for commuter rail on the site, I think it would be fantastic. A good revenue source for Revere and not terribly disruptive to residents. Put in the the TOD condos and you have a pretty good center of activity.

 

[bbfen]

I think the "huge, flashy, pay at the door and be gouged" is why places like Wildwood continue to thrive. The day or afternoon or evening can be as much or as little as you want. Sometimes it's just walking the boards (Watch the tram car!) and others it's minigolf or a ride of the Ferris wheel.

Unlike a trip to Disney you aren't under pressure to have a great time every single second.

How to build that from scratch and make money per today's expectations when it grew up organically is the real problem though. Assuming you conquer the NIMBY's, of course.

 

[Ron Newman]

Peter Pan runs special buses to Six Flags. I don't think they are part of the Springfield-area (Pioneer Valley) transit authority.

And I don't see why an amusement park at Wonderland would doom that station to be the permanent end of a line. The Amtrak line goes right through Old Orchard Beach, after all.

 

[HenryAlan]

Am I nuts, or does anyone else think this could be cool?

I think it would be amazingly cool. Unfortunately, I think we are both nuts, because there is very little likelihood that enough people agree with you and me to make it a viable attraction.

 

[KentXie]

I have to agree with Beton Brut, even though I wish it wasn't so.

We're living in a different time, now, and the heyday of small parks a la what Wonderland once was is gone - never to return.

Coney Island survived because of 180 years of storied history.

Six Flags, Canobie Lake, Disneyworld, etc.? That's the new standard for what an amusement park is. Huge, flashy, pay at the door and be gouged on concessions resorts. The kind of developments that are only part of any city so much as that's where their mailing address happens to be - the kind of place kept tidily isolated from its surroundings, a world unto itself.

Wonderland's not coming back. And you have to ask yourself... even if you did find yourself in the position to go in and boardwalk-ize Revere Beach Boulevard between Beach and Revere Streets, even if you could get an amusement park with a casino going in that area, even if you could get some mixed retail-residential-hotel high rises in there to tie the new property together...

Would you really want to? Would what you've bought be worth the cost, really? Far from creating a new urban satellite in Revere, you'd in all likelihood be signing the death warrant for Revere as an actual town. You'd be creating a clear barrier in the place formerly known as Revere - as surely as if you'd built a freeway down through that place instead.

And lest we forget, if you did this, Wonderland's current status as the end of the Blue Line would become permanent. Forever. Kiss BLX to Lynn goodbye if you did this.

I don't think it's worth it.

But hey, speaking of Six Flags...!



Six Flags isn't even transit accessible from Springfield. The closest bus stop is 1.8 miles away, according to google, which suggests you would then take a taxi or drive the rest of the way. (A ~15 minute shuttle bus service could fix this, as it's a 6 mile drive between the two.)

Still, I imagine that I just might be banging on the drum of 'Commuter Rail to Springfield!' for the rest of my life if I have to. It's more than worth doing.

Two words.

Navy Pier

Sure it doesn't have a rollercoaster but the fact that Navy Pier can attract such an enormous crowd every summer with:

A giant ferris wheel
A swing ride
An indoor maze
A motion simulator
An obstacle course
A children museum
A merry go round

shows that not only is it possible, but that a coaster isn't even needed to bring people and tourists to the park.

Though I would rather have this at the Seaport than Wonderland.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

I think the "huge, flashy, pay at the door and be gouged" is why places like Wildwood continue to thrive. The day or afternoon or evening can be as much or as little as you want. Sometimes it's just walking the boards (Watch the tram car!) and others it's minigolf or a ride of the Ferris wheel.

Unlike a trip to Disney you aren't under pressure to have a great time every single second.

How to build that from scratch and make money per today's expectations when it grew up organically is the real problem though. Assuming you conquer the NIMBY's, of course.

No, but I think this really supports my argument. These places - Wildwood, Navy Pier, etc. - are surviving because they've survived. Storied history and tenure has given them permanence.

You won't have that with the new Wonderland, and so - where you lack 'tenure,' you need something else. You have to make sure that whatever you build is going to compete with Canobie or Six Flags, and survive (nevermind thrive) long enough to gain new history, and permanence with that.

There's no two ways about this. You'd need to go flashy, you'd need to go back, you'd need to push the envelope to grab an audience.

Peter Pan runs special buses to Six Flags. I don't think they are part of the Springfield-area (Pioneer Valley) transit authority.

And I don't see why an amusement park at Wonderland would doom that station to be the permanent end of a line. The Amtrak line goes right through Old Orchard Beach, after all.

I imagine the Peter Pan ridership numbers could support a Springfield CR extension, but I don't have those numbers.

As for the Downeaster - completely different animal. It's an intercity line that runs up the East Coast into Maine. As an intercity rail, the priority is city-city movement.

The Blue Line, on the other hand? Rapid transit. (Relatively) high speed, high-frequency service over a (relatively) short distance, with several stops servicing points of interest along the way.

Rapid transit like the Blue Line works at its best when you have high-volume destinations on either end of the line, rather than at the center. This is because if the majority of your passengers are going to one end or the other, you'll expect to have a more consistent distribution of passengers along the length of the line instead of a bell curve of empty trains at either end and jam packed trains towards the center.

If you build out the new Wonderland - bam, you've got your anchor points of interest at both ends. After a few months, assuming traffic holds? BLX to Lynn is quietly shuffled off the table, because it wouldn't be effecient.

 

[Max Power]

I think the "huge, flashy, pay at the door and be gouged" is why places like Wildwood continue to thrive. The day or afternoon or evening can be as much or as little as you want. Sometimes it's just walking the boards (Watch the tram car!) and others it's minigolf or a ride of the Ferris wheel.

Unlike a trip to Disney you aren't under pressure to have a great time every single second.

How to build that from scratch and make money per today's expectations when it grew up organically is the real problem though. Assuming you conquer the NIMBY's, of course.

W-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-aaatch the tram car please! !! W-w-w-w-w....

Talk about another place that's had its character eaten away by new 'development'...

 

[Kahta]

I think its a good idea.

 

[Ron Newman]

Rapid transit like the Blue Line works at its best when you have high-volume destinations on either end of the line, rather than at the center.

The Red and Orange lines both have downtown Boston at their center. So will the Green Line once it's extended to Somerville and Medford.

 

[Ron Newman]

Chicago's Navy Pier has been many things over the years, but it's only been an amusement park since the early 1990s.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

The Red and Orange lines both have downtown Boston at their center. So will the Green Line once it's extended to Somerville and Medford.

Right, so you can actually see this in action.

Starting on the Red Line at Braintree (or Ashmont), it's relatively quiet and empty. As you go Inbound on the line, more and more people get on with few to no people disembarking until around JFK/UMass or Andrew, where things are packed at Standing Room Only. Broadway - SS - DTX - Park - Charles/MGH, just as many people are squeezing in to that crush loaded train as there are people getting off. Then as the train continues on Outbound to Alewife, more and more people are getting off (with comparatively few people getting on) until you reach the end and the train is sparsely populated, just as it began.

This is not a bad thing - indeed, there's a lot that should be said in defense of having a system that works this way. But all those empty seats represent money not being made on that train.

The difference between those lines and the Blue Line is that they already have Downtown Boston in their center. And if BLX to Lynn was built first, there'd be no problem.

But suppose it's not built, and the new Wonderland is. The Blue Line is special in that right now it terminates Downtown - there is only one direction from which it continuously picks up passengers and only one direction towards which the volume of riders steadily decreases. Now we have new Wonderland, and if it's built out as this grand resort (which I maintain it must be to survive - organic growth is no longer possible) - then it should be just as much of a draw as (Charles/MGH) - Government Center - State Street. Now, just as many people are getting on the train as they are getting off at every station, and there's never an empty train like you would find at Quincy Adams, Davis Square or even Malden Center. That's huge - and now that you've got this, any extension you make - no matter what that extension is - is going to have to fill every train, every time, or else justify itself against the fact that you're reintroducing a (relatively) lower volume segment of the trip.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

Absolutely! Wonderland was a victim of bad circumstances, unfortunately. I feel that if it had merely hung on a little longer (I think Blizzard of 78 provided the killing blow?) then it would have gentrified back into something great. I feel it is now impossible to recreate it all now. But hey, I'd certainly love to see someone try!

 

[BostonUrbEx]

Bring on the condos and the yuppies. They'll vote out the thugs and half-wits who run Revere. Then maybe the place can have a proper rebirth.

That's the thing. The guys running the show now don't want to lose the seats for their fat asses. Note the lack of will for the Red-Blue connector... it would bring in too much fresh blood to that neck of the country and threaten their reign.