[CANCELED] Summer St. Gondola

[fattony]

Anyone have a feel for the claimed 4000 riders per hour. That sounds like an awful lot of people. In 3 stations that is 22 people per minute boarding this thing at each one. Does that pass the smell test for an urban gondola?

 

[stellarfun]

Anyone have a feel for the claimed 4000 riders per hour. That sounds like an awful lot of people. In 3 stations that is 22 people per minute boarding this thing at each one. Does that pass the smell test for an urban gondola?

The Globe article referenced nine second headways. Here's how the proponents apparently came up with that number.

Promise to move 4,000 an hour in peak direction flow.
Each gondola has 10 person capacity.
= 400 trips per hour
= 6.6 trips per minute
= One gondola departure every nine seconds

^^^^Friggin absurd.

Each trip (about one mile) takes 7.3 minutes (jogging speed).

Also no mention of how the gondolas are to be turned at South Station.

 

[HenryAlan]

This looks a hell of a lot like an elevated rail system, especially at the stations. I thought Boston hated elevated transit, and I can't believe this will ever fly (no pun intended).

Precisely my thought. I looked at that South Station rendering and first reaction was, oh, they are bringing back the Atlantic Ave. El, just pointing it in a different direction. Personally, I like Els just fine, and maybe that should be part of the Seaport transit conversation, but it is rather odd that this supposedly innovative idea is going to make South Station look the way it did when the rejected old fashioned idea was still in place.

 

[tysmith95]

The Globe article referenced nine second headways. Here's how the proponents apparently came up with that number.

Promise to move 4,000 an hour in peak direction flow.
Each gondola has 10 person capacity.
= 400 trips per hour
= 6.6 trips per minute
= One gondola departure every nine seconds

^^^^Friggin absurd.

Each trip (about one mile) takes 7.3 minutes (jogging speed).

Also no mention of how the gondolas are to be turned at South Station.

Sounds like a ski area gondola. There are hundreds of those.

Go to Stowe Vermont and ride the gondola. That but without skis and in the seaport.

Precisely my thought. I looked at that South Station rendering and first reaction was, oh, they are bringing back the Atlantic Ave. El, just pointing it in a different direction. Personally, I like Els just fine, and maybe that should be part of the Seaport transit conversation, but it is rather odd that this supposedly innovative idea is going to make South Station look the way it did when the rejected old fashioned idea was still in place.

A rope really isin't the same as a huge hunk of steel.

 

[Downburst]

I'm all for it. Sure I'd love more busses or even a trolley system there, but this project will do more than just transport people. It will create a certain unique neighbourhood character.

Fort Point already has a unique neighborhood character.

On that note, given those renderings, I can't ever see this flying with the neighborhood groups.

 

[jass]

Anyone have a feel for the claimed 4000 riders per hour. That sounds like an awful lot of people. In 3 stations that is 22 people per minute boarding this thing at each one. Does that pass the smell test for an urban gondola?

"The Mexicable Ecatepec consists of 190 cars, and each one of them can carry 10 passengers. The predicted capacity is 6,000 passengers per hour and 29,000 passengers per day, with a fare of six pesos."

"The Mi Teleférico system consists of monocable aerial cable car lines. Each line has a maximum capacity of 6000 passengers per hour."

"The (London) cable car provides a crossing every 15 seconds, with a maximum capacity of 2,500 passengers per hour in each direction, about 50 busloads"

Just because the US stopped investing in transportation 50 years ago, doesn't mean the rest of the world also stopped.

This isn't the Hyperloop, it's proven technology.

 

[tysmith95]

"The Mexicable Ecatepec consists of 190 cars, and each one of them can carry 10 passengers. The predicted capacity is 6,000 passengers per hour and 29,000 passengers per day, with a fare of six pesos."

"The Mi Teleférico system consists of monocable aerial cable car lines. Each line has a maximum capacity of 6000 passengers per hour."

"The (London) cable car provides a crossing every 15 seconds, with a maximum capacity of 2,500 passengers per hour in each direction, about 50 busloads"

Just because the US stopped investing in transportation 50 years ago, doesn't mean the rest of the world also stopped.

This isn't the Hyperloop, it's proven technology.

Basically every decent sized ski area in New England has a lift with a capacity over 2k persons per hour. The 4 person chairlifts which there are probably 100 or so in just New England have a capacity of about 2400 an hour.

There are two companies Poma and Doppelmayr that make these lifts on a regular basis.

The thing is though that 4k per hour is small for a rapid transit system. There will certainly be lines during rush hour.

 

[JumboBuc]

Basically every decent sized ski area in New England has a lift with a capacity over 2k persons per hour. The 4 person chairlifts which there are probably 100 or so in just New England have a capacity of about 2400 an hour.

How many of those are enclosed, climate controlled, and ADA compliant?

Fort Point already has a unique neighborhood character.

On that note, given those renderings, I can't ever see this flying with the neighborhood groups.

Agreed.

 

[Lrfox]

That hardly looks efficient or speedy. Much cheaper and probably faster to simply run a bus every five minutes.

And every day there's a winf over a certain speed, the gondola doesn't operate?

Yes, but it would have to be pretty significant wind. Today (Bomb Cyclone) might be an example of when they would shut it down or come close to it. I've seen some stuff that depending on wind direction and terrain, a lot of ski areas will shut them down at 45ish mph. That's crosswinds over systems that are moving up steep and rugged terrain. I've also been on lifts that were still operating with 65 mph gusts. So it really depends. I'd wager that given the flat terrain here and the likelihood that this will be a larger, heavier system than what you'd find at a typical ski resort (4-8 passenger gondolas are the norm at most), the days that the line is put on wind hold will be few and far between.

And it doesn't look to be ADA compliant.

This was my concern too. These lifts don't usually come to a complete stop. They move slowly through the loading/unloading area and you have to step into it while it's moving. I don't know how that would work here. If you stop them completely, those 9 second headways are even more of a leap. I rode the system in CDMX two weeks ago for fun and it was definitely not ADA complaint (consistently moving, uneven platforms, etc.). Then again, the doors open on the Metro there before the train even stops in the station so I don't think it's as much of a concern there.

 

[tysmith95]

How many of those are enclosed, climate controlled, and ADA compliant?

Killington has two enclosed gondolas, Stowe has two, Stratton has one, Sunday River has a gondola chairlift combo, Loon has one.

There are more out west.

ADA compliance would be the issue. Since for ski lifts the lift is always moving slowly within the terminal. I'm not entirely sure how a wheelchair would be inserted into a moving cabin. Maybe the terminal would have a supervisor that could momentarily stop the lift to push a wheelchair into a cabin.

 

[JumboBuc]

I was up at Sunday River one weekend in mid-January. Their (non-ADA compliant) "chondola" was closed all day because the winds were too strong.

My point here is not that there is never any place for an urban gondola; my point is that the gondola is not some sort of magic bullet. Plenty of hurdles that plague public transit across-the-board (among them: weather resiliency issues, neighborhood aesthetic concerns, cost overruns, the requirement for 100% ADA-compliance, etc.) will plague this idea as well. The gondola won't be some clever end-around to avoid these issues. Given that, it makes more sense to put the $100 million (!) into lower profile, more proven solutions.

 

[tysmith95]

I was up at Sunday River one weekend in mid-January. Their (non-ADA compliant) "chondola" was closed all day because winds were too strong.

That's another issue. This lift would probably be closed on a day like today.

Although ski lifts go to the top of mountains, so they experience higher winds then anything you'd see at sea level.

 

[tysmith95]

Given that, it makes more sense to put the $100 million (!) into lower profile, more proven solutions.

I thought this is supposed to be privately funded.

Publicly funded yes it makes no sense. But privately I could care less.

 

[JeffDowntown]

I thought this is supposed to be privately funded.

Publicly funded yes it makes no sense. But privately I could care less.

The right-of-way being used is public space. I care, even if the construction monies are private. This is a stupid eye-sore.

The money should go to Silver Line under D Street and more SL2 capacity

 

[Shepard]

My greatest concern has always been that it doesn't at all help with connections, which is the SL's greatest drawback. This perpetuates the stub-end at South Station which does nothing to enhance connectivity.

One easy change could readily change my mind about the project and secure my buy-in: extend through Summer/Winter downtown to Park Street. It's a straight line, and will help tie in the Seaport with DTX's revitalization. Why not?

(Another routing could also be Essex--Boylston--Back Bay/Copley Stations but I think that's out of the question)

 

[bakgwailo]

That's another issue. This lift would probably be closed on a day like today.

Although ski lifts go to the top of mountains, so they experience higher winds then anything you'd see at sea level.

They rarely ever closed the Roosevelt Island Tram when I was living there, although, I would guess that on a day like today it would have closed. Also note it was full ADA compliant.

 

[tysmith95]

This is a stupid eye-sore.

I disagree. The original render for the end terminal wasn't great, i'll give you that. But a gondola will give the area some character. I can't think of any other urban neighborhood in the US that has something like it.

 

[ceo]

The Globe article referenced nine second headways.

That's pretty much standard. [/QUOTE]

Also no mention of how the gondolas are to be turned at South Station.

The carriers detach from the haul rope as they enter the station, and are driven around a loop track at a much slower speed by a series of tires. The haul rope goes around a large pulley (called the bullwheel) at either end, one of which is powered.
Someone asked about wind; these things were developed for harsh alpine environments, so they can deal with pretty high wind speeds.

 

[ceo]

One easy change could readily change my mind about the project and secure my buy-in: extend through Summer/Winter downtown to Park Street. It's a straight line, and will help tie in the Seaport with DTX's revitalization.

It's not actually a straight line at all if you look at a map, and there's tall buildings on both sides. I'm pretty sure Winter St is simply too narrow. One huge drawback to gondolas is they can't turn corners except at stations, and the stations are the big expensive part. (You can bend the line a couple degrees at towers by tilting the sheaves that the haul rope runs over.) Oh, and good luck getting approval to put a gondola terminal on Boston Common.

 

[WormtownNative]

They rarely ever closed the Roosevelt Island Tram when I was living there, although, I would guess that on a day like today it would have closed. Also note it was full ADA compliant.

In regards to the ADA compliance, the Roosevelt Island Tram doesn't loop. It has two large cars servicing two terminal stations - not multiple stations.