City Hall Plaza Revamp | Government Center

Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

Believe it or not, in a Modernist plaza, City Hall would serve as an excellent focal point if it were properly framed.

Believe it.

Any successful plan needs to include a refreshed, permeable, and inviting City Hall. In the right balance of modernization and restoration, create a vibe that inspires and rewards curiosity. Gerhard Kallmann's symphony in concrete deserves a confident performance.

Asking people to gather there and stay is like asking milk to remain in a shattered jug.

^ Yes!
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

I feel strongly that the plaza should be saved and city hall should be repurposed. People might not like the architecture but I do. People don't like that the interior is dank, confusing and has never worked well and I agree. However, what we need from a city hall is different from what we needed prior to the internet age so I don't see making it work as the problem it once was. Also, city hall and the plaza are an important place of assembly and have become part of the city's history. Millions of people have attended events there (instead of destroying the Common) and Bostonians are know to assemble en masse so I think it's worth saving and reworking.
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

This is about proper stage management.

The most delightful Spanish and Italian squares that I've seen over the decades often share similar qualities. First, they are often approached through narrow streets. These narrow streets give keyhole views of the square and its central architectural feature. The approach and the keyhole view invites curiosity and wonder. The transition from the confines of the narrow approach streets into the larger public space creates excitement upon arrival.

City Hall Plaza and its approaches share NONE of these qualities. Its conception is closer to the Mussolinian revamp of Rome with its brutal clearances to create spaces for the "oceanic masses" gathered to hear speeches of the Duce and to celebrate the latest Imperial triumphs over the plucky Ethiopians. Also, it is "specimen" planning at its worst..."oh, look at that unusual building, lets knock everything down around it so you can see it better". The result is a large, blowsy uninteresting space.

Could it be fixed? Of course. For example, build a row of buildings along the Cambridge Street side echoing the curve, a giant Tontine Crescent if you will (not in style necessarily, but in shape.) In the middle of the crescent have an opening for a narrow street of midrise buildings that leads to a medium size rectangular square in front of a vine covered City Hall, which if properly fenestrated with plantings on its projections, would surprise and delight like the unexpected discovery by trekkers of a Mayan temple in the jungle.

On one side of the crescent, restore Hanover Street, and line one side with low to mid-rises, the backs of which would form one side of the square. On the other side, restore Cornhill and build a street with low to mid rise buildings mirroring the Sears Crescent, etc. with the squared off back side forming another side of the reduced square. Put lots of retail, and cafes around the square.

Anyhow, that's my fix, and why.
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

I concur ^. This is much better than the current official proposal which looks like a massive Aztec ruin surrounded by tall weeds.
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

Agree with the view Toby, Van and others have voiced that City Hall Plaza isn't worth investing in until it's being built upon.

With regard to the sub-question that Statler and Bronson raised of whether the new structures to be built on the plaza can/should be Modernist vs. classical, I'm happy with *anything* but think it's worth making the argument for classical.

Many of the 'historic' buildings in European city centers as they are today were actually built after WWII, especially in Germany and Poland. For the most part, these were quickly rebuilt following WWII in the 1950s - but notable structures (e.g., the under-construction Berliner Schloss in the heart of Berlin, or Dresden's iconic Neumarkt including the Frauenkirche, rebuilt in 2005) are very recent.

Why not rebuild at least significant parts of what was razed in Scollay Square back in the 1950s/60s? Rebuild the buildings facing Cambridge Street as they would have looked. Fill in the area between the JFK Federal Building and City Hall with more modern structures, maybe with a street bisecting them. Ensure the resulting, shrunken plaza is lined with restaurants and fills out with markets at Christmastime and farmers markets year-round.

I don't know exactly what this looked like, though I'm sure Ablarc would (and I'm equally sure he posted at least once informing us what was there, many moons ago).

It's a pipe dream, sure - but Boston has taken on much more expensive, and much foolhardier, schemes in all of our lifetimes.
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

Replication makes me nervous! The examples you cite are good ones. Locally, the replica of the Tontine Crescent built in Charlestown turned out ok. But then I think of that hotel in Kenmore Square. Or Hallstatt in Guangdong (skip to second half if the dudes bore or anger you):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9loDBwp5ST0
 
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Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

This is about proper stage management.

The most delightful Spanish and Italian squares that I've seen over the decades often share similar qualities. First, they are often approached through narrow streets. These narrow streets give keyhole views of the square and its central architectural feature. The approach and the keyhole view invites curiosity and wonder. The transition from the confines of the narrow approach streets into the larger public space creates excitement upon arrival.

City Hall Plaza and its approaches share NONE of these qualities. Its conception is closer to the Mussolinian revamp of Rome with its brutal clearances to create spaces for the "oceanic masses" gathered to hear speeches of the Duce and to celebrate the latest Imperial triumphs over the plucky Ethiopians. Also, it is "specimen" planning at its worst..."oh, look at that unusual building, lets knock everything down around it so you can see it better". The result is a large, blowsy uninteresting space.

Could it be fixed? Of course. For example, build a row of buildings along the Cambridge Street side echoing the curve, a giant Tontine Crescent if you will (not in style necessarily, but in shape.) In the middle of the crescent have an opening for a narrow street of midrise buildings that leads to a medium size rectangular square in front of a vine covered City Hall, which if properly fenestrated with plantings on its projections, would surprise and delight like the unexpected discovery by trekkers of a Mayan temple in the jungle.

On one side of the crescent, restore Hanover Street, and line one side with low to mid-rises, the backs of which would form one side of the square. On the other side, restore Cornhill and build a street with low to mid rise buildings mirroring the Sears Crescent, etc. with the squared off back side forming another side of the reduced square. Put lots of retail, and cafes around the square.

Anyhow, that's my fix, and why.

Yes this is almost exactly what I had in mind, but as usual, you explained it much better than I could have.

The only reason I am saying Modernist is because CCA has done such a good job in other threads explaining why faux classical buildings are really hard to pull off successfully due to cost and code issues.
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

Minoru Yamasaki, Edward Durell Stone, and William Pereira created forthrightly modern buildings that were informed through a deep knowledge classical forms and proportions. All three architects are going through a reassessment. I'd be well pleased if we could enclose the plaza with appropriately scaled buildings that show an awareness of that ethos. I wonder what Snøhetta would do with a chance to build something new on the plaza.

So far as I'm concerned, they oughta throw you lads the keys.
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

It's been a little while since someone mentioned the loop for the GL, the tracks to North Station, and Blue Line. i moan about replacing City Hall, the JFK low-rise, State Service Ctr with a pedestrian/ gaslight grid respecting the memory of Scollay Square.... a proper building for Boston City offices, podiums for highrises w/ maybe one or two pushing skyward... and properly connect the Financial District to the Historical monuments and West End.

But, digging around those delicate old tunnels (some abandoned) must present a formidable challenge; $$$, trusses, politics....

In my imaginary world, 1 Congress is up, tenants are moving in from 1 Beacon or some place.... JFK Fed low-rise and City Hall employees are moving into 1 Beacon, and architects are working w/ a clean sheet of paper.

There was a feasibility study a few years ago. But, Boston has moved past it's Big Dig hangover and leaped forward. These buildings have faltered to become ailing parts of the urban realm at a turning point.

Bold planning can achieve their replacement. Boston's peer cities; San Francisco, Seattle, Philadelphia & Miami would move on from these hulking relics (briskly and confidently).
 
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Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

But, digging around those delicate old tunnels (some abandoned) must present a formidable challenge; $$$, trusses, politics....

Pretty much all of the tunnels under the Plaza were built along with GC in the early 1960's. The very old ones are (almost) under Cambridge Street and the former Hanover Street location, and of course the GC station area.

I would reroute Cambridge Street to its original location over the tunnels there, which would require the 1-2-3 Center Plaza to be demolished (no big loss there), and be replaced with new buildings. Hanover Street could be restored over the southbound Green Line tunnel. So, except for the GC station itself, all that is left under the existing plaza are the early 60's tunnels, and, given their relatively recent age, can most likely accommodate properly fortified buildings and streets. City Hall already sits over the NB Green Line, one of the 60's vintage tunnels. Over the GC station itself could be a pocket park to include the recently constructed glass kiosk.
 
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Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

^ Do you have a map of the original Cambridge Street location?
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

^ Do you have a map of the original Cambridge Street location?

I don't have an overlay of new Cambridge Street vs. old Cambridge Street, but here's a side-by-side:

41503927650_32574dc8be_o.jpg


Cambridge Street today is in basically the same location as the old pre-GC Cambridge Street.
Therefore, the Green and Blue line tunnels under Cambridge Street don't impinge on City Hall Plaza to any significant extent.
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

Thanks Charlie,

i have been looking for a diagram like this for some time.

That street grid could have been modernized with widening of some of the streets and elimi —nope i was wrong. Scollay was very nearly perfect. Can't say what buildings should have been spared (none??). i don't know the remedy to have transitioned to a modern Downtown, City offices and highrises. But the grid that encompasses what is today Center Plaza, City Hall Plaza and the JFK Federal should all still exist – w/ mostly pedestrian-only access as a natural extension of the historic markets, Bulfinch triangle & North End... What a tragedy.

You don't hear much about Center Plaza in essays about Urban Renewal. It might be the worst of them.
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

I don't have an overlay of new Cambridge Street vs. old Cambridge Street, but here's a side-by-side:

41503927650_32574dc8be_o.jpg


Cambridge Street today is in basically the same location as the old pre-GC Cambridge Street.
Therefore, the Green and Blue line tunnels under Cambridge Street don't impinge on City Hall Plaza to any significant extent.

You might want to check out Vanshnookenraggen's map of the lines.

http://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Boston_MBTA_TrackMap_24.pdf

Zoom in to see the details.

Double tracking diagonally across the area; double tracking along the old Hanover Street alignment, turn around loop in the middle of the plaza, dead spur on the Court Street side of the plaza. That is a lot of underground tunneling to avoid.
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

You might want to check out Vanshnookenraggen's map of the lines.

Zoom in to see the details.

Double tracking diagonally across the area; double tracking along the old Hanover Street alignment, turn around loop in the middle of the plaza, dead spur on the Court Street side of the plaza. That is a lot of underground tunneling to avoid.

Van's map is correct, except the Blue line is actually underneath the Green line under Cambridge St., which he had to offset to show the two lines.

Most of the tunnels under the Plaza are 1960's vintage. The only ones that are 1910 or so vintage are the GC station and the SB Green Line under the former Hanover Street alignment. The abandoned tunnel next to the Sears Crescent block could be filled in if allowable under historical preservation rules, or could at least be reinforced, then a street built over it as was the case before GC, or a pedestrian walkway if need be. I think the 60's vintage tunnels under the Plaza can be dealt with okay. After all, City Hall sits astride the NB Green Line tunnel.
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

You might want to check out Vanshnookenraggen's map of the lines.

http://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Boston_MBTA_TrackMap_24.pdf

Zoom in to see the details.

Double tracking diagonally across the area; double tracking along the old Hanover Street alignment, turn around loop in the middle of the plaza, dead spur on the Court Street side of the plaza. That is a lot of underground tunneling to avoid.

How deep are the tunnels, for the most part?
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

Purely guesswork...not very. They could well have been old fashioned cut and cover.
 
Re: Official City Hall Plaza Proposals

So not very deep!
 

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