Columbus Center: RIP | Back Bay

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Re: Columbus Center

?Architecture and design as well as development in Boston has been on drunken binge for a while,?? said Lee. ?We have been building exorbitant projects that are quite fanciful. It?s time to pull back and be more thoughtful ? celebrate the prosaic a little more. Not every building has to be an object building.??
What exorbitant projects? What has been fanciful? "Celebrate the prosaic": THAT I can see plenty of. Anybody recall a recent object building in Boston? Intercontinental Hotel, maybe? What is this man talking about?

Since he seems to agree, maybe bostonbred can explain:

this BINGE drunking splains the many thinks Iam thinkin here.
 
Re: Columbus Center

I've always thought that if the city really wanted these parcels developed right they should have built the deck themselves.

Completely agree Van - though it would have to be a JV with the State since they actually own the air rights. I actually wrote a paper on this in grad school. The city can decide which parcels are priorities, throw down a deck, and decide what they want to allow on top. For example, if they want to provide open space you build an uber-cheap deck and throw some grass on top; if the city wants an ROI, build a monster deck, zone the shit out of it and charge developers through the nose for an FAR of 30.

RE: air rights over the Pike, one of the biggest risks to building the decks is the traffic management plan. The city and state SHOULD own that risk. Plus, the city could get federal funds and a private developer would get lambasted for trying.
 
Re: Columbus Center

Completely agree Van - though it would have to be a JV with the State since they actually own the air rights. I actually wrote a paper on this in grad school. The city can decide which parcels are priorities, throw down a deck, and decide what they want to allow on top. For example, if they want to provide open space you build an uber-cheap deck and throw some grass on top; if the city wants an ROI, build a monster deck, zone the shit out of it and charge developers through the nose for an FAR of 30.

RE: air rights over the Pike, one of the biggest risks to building the decks is the traffic management plan. The city and state SHOULD own that risk. Plus, the city could get federal funds and a private developer would get lambasted for trying.

Wrong. Even if Boston wanted to deck over the city, the people will cry that it is a waste of taxpayers money. You think people like Ned will allow something like that? Forget it, the only way to please them is to have all of it funded by the developers themselves.
 
Re: Columbus Center

Forget it, the only way to please them is to have all of it funded by the developers themselves.

Exactly my point Kent. If the sentiment is that the city/state should make their money back then they can build an uber-deck and jack up the FAR - developers will end up paying for the zoning variances. If the sentiment is that the parcels should be open space, then the city can build a (relatively) cheap deck and plant grass.

Better to have the city make those decisions and build the decks than to award the development rights to someone and then tie them up in 10 years of activist lawsuits, rezoning, begging for subsidies, etc. Plus, as a construction company my biggest concern during a highway project is when and if the Pike will let me take lanes during construction. If the Pike is an owner, then that variable is taken off the table.
 
Re: Columbus Center

Open space shouldn't even be an option. People bought around there with a loud, polluting highway right outside their door. The state dose not need to spend millions so they can have a profitless front yard. A building of any height (tall is prob they only way to get a return), is a vast improvement to what they've had for a long time now.
 
Re: Columbus Center

The Globe article from today says the state is somehow subsidizing the decks at Kenmore Center. Less money due to less decking, but still seems that they are contributing.

Now what was that again about no public subsidies?
 
Re: Columbus Center

Open space shouldn't even be an option. People bought around there with a loud, polluting highway right outside their door. The state dose not need to spend millions so they can have a profitless front yard. A building of any height (tall is prob they only way to get a return), is a vast improvement to what they've had for a long time now.

That is a really selfish viewpoint and one that is far too pervasive in city development. Building a park, yes, will improve property values but that also means that there is more tax money coming to the city. It encourages homeowners to actually take care of their property; highways are notorious for keeping values down so there is little incentive for neighborhoods around them to improve.

You also seem to be looking down on people who buy around a highway. Perhaps it was what they could afford? There are a lot of different sides here and having a black and white point of view doesn't help anyone.
 
Re: Columbus Center

What exorbitant projects? What has been fanciful? "Celebrate the prosaic": THAT I can see plenty of. Anybody recall a recent object building in Boston? Intercontinental Hotel, maybe? What is this man talking about?

Since he seems to agree, maybe bostonbred can explain:

This BIG BLAG WALL at 54 Providence STS being BIG binger drinker design!!! Arkiteky man maybe PUKE on blue print. Inks running into BIG BLOBS. wipe up and detail allGONE. Or acidsreflucks WARP hotel mylar so wiggly wiggly. DRINKING BAD. ESPESALLY BINGO drinkers!!!!

I being SICK now after celebrat at fiends St. Prosaic day party. Staying home from the schools now
 
^ I grew up very close to a highway, so I'm not viewing down on people who bought half a million dollar townhouses all the while I'm living in a basement apt. Now w/ that being said you definately have more knowledge than me on all things urban, but on this I respectfully disagree. To spend tens of millions of dollars just to put a plot of grass on the deck is a waste. These people choose to live where they did with no promise of that highway ever becoming a park, actually I think they are sellfish. And, again I"m not sure, but wouldn't some nice towers inplace of a highway increase property values as well, plus the tax generated from these hypothetical towers. These people choose to live in Boston's central business area, an are which should build up. If a person can't take towers then they should live in 99.9% of the rest of the state. I mean if I didn't care for the ocean I wouldn't live in Hull.
 
The role played by those who live next to the highway is actually very small. This story is largely around developers, banks, and subsidies. There are a few NIMBYs who play an outsized part relative to the number of people who stand silently to be positively impacted.
 
^^ I agree, but in regards to parks on highway decks, I'm guessing that request came from the residents. And I think that either directly or indirectly the state would be paying a lot for that.
 
So are you also against people cashing in when the Green Line is extended to Medford? There wasn't any service promised to them when they bought their house, why should the state pay for something that benefits them? Oh wait, because it benefits all of us too. It's an investment in the city as a whole.
 
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So are you also against people chasing in when the Green Line is extended to Medford? There wasn't any service promised to them when they bought their house, why should the state pay for something that benefits them? Oh wait, because it benefits all of us too. It's an investment in the city as a whole.

I like the argument you make. I agree on the premise (benefiting everyone). However, the comparison between a local park and public transportation is a stretch. Transit will likely create economic development that benefits everyone (in addition to taking cars off the roads). Parks will provide open space for people who live and work in the immediate vicinity, not doing much for people who don't live in close proximity to said parks.

The parks over the highway would not provide any significant revenue growth for the area, they'll also likely prevent economic development from ever taking place on those parcels. Can you imagine the outcry from the community if you tried to turn a park into a development? These are the people who act like any mid-size development on a surface parking lot nearby is akin to the devastation that took place at FernGully. Just imagine if the proposal was to replace an actual green space with a development. Even if the city built the park with the preexisting condition that it was a "temporary" place holder for future development, the neighbors would spit fire when the time came to build.

Again, I agree with your point, but don't think the transit bit is all that comparable.
 
we have a park over a highway, the RKG. why anyone would want to replicate that is beyond me.
 
I think your comparing apples to oranges. Spending tens of millions, plus all the extra hassel of building over a highway just to put grass ontop dosn't make economic sense to me. Where is the return, what developer would do this, only if the state pays for it. And no mater what way you cut it, towers are better than open highway and will increase value of the area. So why does the city/state have to pay so much for a few to have another dinky park. I don't see people from other parts of the city going to that park over the Charles, Common, and Fens.
And w/ the green line its not like the just citizens of the affected area were the only ones who wanted to see it happen. A lot of people wanted to see that happen b/c its impact will be far larger, its going to transform Somerville.
I want to see the pike covered but given the enormous cost of building the deck a park isn't justifieable when it's almost inevitalbly going to be govt flipping that bill.
 
just to put grass ontop dosn't make economic sense to me.

Of course it doesn't make economic sense, but the government isn't in business to make money. The point I was making (in support of Van's original comment about the city building the decks) was that the City/State control three major variables:
1. What will be permitted for the sites (FAR, height, use, etc.).
2. The Traffic Management Plan for the Pike that will dictate the construction schedule (and go a long way towards dictating the cost) of building the decks.
3. The ability to get federal funds.

Given those three variables, the argument could be made that the city/state should build the decks once they've determined what will go on each parcel. I don't think anyone was demanding that parks should go in all the parcels. But if the electorate decides that we want more open space, then build parks. If the electorate decides we want this to be a money-maker for the city/state then build the Burj Kalifa.

I personally would prefer density there, but it's not entirely reasonable to say we can't have parks because they only benefit that neighborhood. The logical conclusion to that arguement is no parks anywhere.
 
I hear what your saying, but I think that 80 million (total guess) for a small passive park is unexceptable, where as that same park built on soil is way cheaper. The budget-cutting gov't owes it's people to make money where it can, in reasonable ways. If more open space is really needed around there, which it isn't IMO, then buy some crap building tear it down and put it there.
 
I want to see the pike covered but given the enormous cost of building the deck a park isn't justifiable when it's almost inevitably going to be govt flipping that bill.

I agree that just paying for a small, ridiculously expensive park is a bad investment on a micro level. What I meant was that the City/State should pay for the entire decking on the Pike, not just for a park. A park is great for one part of the development but it has to be part of a package with buildings (we are both in agreement here). Just look at the Greenway!

But this still speaks to the larger question of government investment in cities. What pisses me off is when cities propose these grand, complicated investments but expect developers to foot the entire bill. This then means that what will eventually get built will be much larger than most people living nearby will be comfortable with. The government (city/state) knows how expensive these projects are so if they really want this as an improvement then I think it is only right that they should throw in some taxpayer money, but this means they need to be more of a partner in development than they are now. As it is now the developer just cries fowl and the government throws them a bone, and then it happens again and again.

Cities and States want their cake and to eat it too. What ends up happening is the developers get what they want and the citizens get screwed over twice. This isn't just a Boston thing, there are loads of examples of this all over the states right now in almost every major city (the new Yankee Stadium is a prime example).

So while I think the government should invest in these projects, I think that also means that they/we need to have more of a say, and not just yelling loudly at community meetings or posting on internet forums. This of course means bigger gov't so if you (I'm looking at you TheRifleman) don't like big gov't then you will probably just dismiss this idea anyway.
 
I suppose your right. And the buildings do need to be broken up so I guess a small plaza would make sense. But either way I think tall towers are the answer b/c this is mainly an astetic thing. Sure it will add density, which is allways sexy, but it's not a necesity. So I think we owe it to ourselves to get the most out of this expensive endevour.
 
So while I think the government should invest in these projects, I think that also means that they/we need to have more of a say, and not just yelling loudly at community meetings or posting on internet forums.

I agree with you that government investment in infrastructure is a good thing, Van. But one thing that I don't like about the idea that if government is going to spend money on infrastructure, it needs to listen to "us," is that everyone wants to define "us" as they see fit.

What seems to happen too often is that all of the taxpayers are asked to foot the bill, but when the city goes to listen to "us," it holds a "community" meeting for the people who live in the immediate vicinity of the park, development, or whatever other project is at hand.

Generally, "the community" throws down a gauntlet: If the city is going to build a park (or allow a new apartment building), it must meet our demands. Those demands, almost inevitably, are for "open space," shorter heights, and "affordable housing."

Those things are almost never in the interests of the other 99% of the city's residents, who are asked equally to foot the bill (unless there's a special tax levied against businesses or residents in the immediate area).

That open space often takes the place of a theater, waterfront cafe, shops, other attractions that can engage and draw anyone from the city (or tourists, who often also foot the bill via sales and hotel taxes) or even just apartments, which provide a richer urban experience than "open space." Of course, the immediate neighbors know that nobody will care about a bland yard; that's in their interests, as it means that the people footing the bill won't have any use for the new amenity and therefore won't spoil their peace and quiet. But the city as a whole is often the worse off -- when it turns every development opportunity into open space, residents and tourists have no place to enjoy a beer by the water, stroll along a tree-lined shopping promenade, or see a movie or play.

Shorter building heights and "affordable housing" as well are seldom in the interests of the rest of the city. Both of them mean reduced tax bases for the city -- ultimately meaning either reduced services for the rest of the populace than would otherwise be possible, or higher taxes to support those services. On an aesthetic level -- and I realize that the vast majority of a city's residents generally don't give a damn about this -- it usually means uglier, cheaper structures that cheapen a city's livability.

So while I 100% agree that cities should be spending on infrastructure, and that the interests of the taxpayer should be kept in mind, the huge caveat I'd offer is: have the interests of ALL taxpayers (including tourists) in mind when determining whether, e.g., to build a park, allow a zoning variance to build a new apartment building, etc. By allowing the parochial NIMBY interests of "open space," short buildings and "affordable housing," the vast majority of the city, who are footing the bill, get a bum deal.
 
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