Columbus Center: RIP | Back Bay

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What if Boston said they would only pay for the cost of decking over the highway? That would help the project but it would also be beneficial to the community. Would you object to that kind of subsidy?
 
^ Why would anyone be selling their units now at adjacent properties? That logic doesn't make sense....this things still has a good chance of not happening, and even if it does, there won't be the impacts of increased traffic until 2010.

Also, you mention loud cabs.....I would argue that covering the interstate that has many loud police, fire trucks and ambulances all day and night will make it much queiter......stand at the corner of Clarendon and Columbus today.....its just loud non-stop.
 
palindrome said:
I just can't believe people in this city sometimes. Boston just keeps shooting itself in the foot. Lack of housing and Nimbys having to much power is what will ultimately destroy this city. After college I am getting the hell out of here.

That's over-simplistic though. You talk lack of housing, but you won't be able to afford anything in those buildings. And having seen dozens of housing buildings go up, it's certainly not freeing up anything affordable to the middle class.

Lots of the NIMBY arguments go beyond the actual building. I agree something should be put there. I also sat on two years of public meetings for a civic vision for the whole turnpike, which promptly got thrown into the trash once the first developer showed up.

They're also building a skyscraper in a area with electrical problems and sewage problems, along roads that are often at 110% capacity as it is - and all the studies and plans associated with the building ignore those facts.

And, like many developers, this team has lied through its teeth at every turn, and done all it can to information hide and to deceive the public. I mean let's face reality here - they're doing this for money, not for any grand city benefit. So you really expect me to believe that this 700 million dollar project is not happening because they needed 10 million form the state? You're smoking something if you believe that.

Most of the 'complaining' you read out there is really against the developers, and our lack of trust. Yes, there are some people who want nothing there, but most people agree the area is better served with buildings on all the parcels. But for the most part we're just looking for a little honesty and some real facts and figures. "Trust me" doesn't mean much on a project that has been dragging for 10 years.
 
I also question what is not going to be subsidized elsewhere with the money going to this project. If you were to choose a Massachusetts neighborhood most in need of redevelopment, the Back Bay and South End would be nowhere on the list. Wouldn't the tax money be better spent around Fields Corner or Ruggles, or in Chelsea or Holyoke?
 
johnmcboston said:
That's over-simplistic though. You talk lack of housing, but you won't be able to afford anything in those buildings. And having seen dozens of housing buildings go up, it's certainly not freeing up anything affordable to the middle class.
Why not?
Though this new supply may create some new demand, most of it will just relieve pent up demand, thus dropping prices across the board.

And I think this is the problem most people have with these types of developments. It might lower the demand for (and thus, price of) their house if they choose to sell. It is a rational but self-serving fear.
Of course, if people bought their house as a place to live rather than just as an investment, we might see a lot less of this. But that is asking too much in today's mobile society.
 
Yes

Yes, putting the state's money toward "infrastructure" would make me happy, even though it ends up benefiting the developer.

The state did this with Route 1 in Foxboro, I believe. I was against that, since the road improvements only helped the Patriots, and no one else. I was annoyed, but, whatever.

Owners would sell now, because they have no idea what will happen. Yes, precisely for that reason. The alternative is to wait until it's done, three or four years from now. The owners selling now must assess what their plans are for the next half-decade. Those who don't want the uncertainty will move now, versus later.

Plus, you're more likely to get a buyer now, before construction begins, than during construction.

The plans for construction should be disclosed to any buyers, of course, but they may not realize what they're in for. As you say, this project may never get built. To a certain number of buyers, that's all they need to know.

Suppose it IS built and ends up being a monstrosity causing huge traffic jams, congestion, noise, etc. Owners don't want to take that chance.

If I was an owner, I'd get out now.
 
I'm of mixed minds on the public subsidy, but it seems to me that the neighbors have not yet confronted the elephant in the room, which is that decking a heavily used interstate costs a massive amount of money.

I agree with johnmcboston that the $10 million certainly isn't going to make or break this project.

I disagree with johnmcboston's view that it was a bad thing that the Civic Vision for the whole turnpike was in large measure scrapped or ignored. The problem with the Civic Vision, and the problem with a lot of the commentary by the neighbors in the dozens of meetings on CC that I attended, is that the Civic Vision pretty much ignored economic reality and risk. Why would a developer take on all the added cost and headache associated with an air rights project when a similar solid ground opportunity might exist a block away? Indeed, the Clarendon project, proposed years after Columbus Center, is now underway while CC sits in limbo. That's because the economics of Clarendon don't require building an expensive deck.

I hope that most of us on this Board can agree that decking/covering the Pike end to end would be a good thing, something in the public interest. It connects neighborhoods. It makes a noisy trench quieter. It adds tremendously to walkable civic space.

Assuming we agree on that, we need to then make a choice between Option 1) A significant public subsidy to offset the cost of the deck, the over-highway construction, and subsequent tunnel maintenance or Option 2) Sweeteners that would make these projects more profitable than its landside competitors. Those sweeteners probably need to include a combination of a zero-cost lease from the Pike and permission to build higher than surrounding zoning (as envisioned by CC, but perhaps even higher) at a minimum. And that still might not be enough to avoid some subsidy of infrastructure as in Option 1. There is no such thing as an Option 3 where this magically gets built with the same economics as other buildings. There is an option, of course, where nothing gets built, but opponents ought to be honest if that's what they really favor, instead of invoking a fantasy.

I have ZERO sympathy for residents of the Pope building or 75 Clarendon. The public interest of the rest of the city should not be held hostage because someone is worried about losing his penthouse view. And (not to pick on johnmcboston) I also don't understand why anyone cares that the condos are going to be high priced luxury units. By definition, any new high-rise residential building in the middle of a city is going to be high priced luxury units unless they are subsidized. Assuming otherwise is like wondering why Ford can't sell you a new Mustang for $5000. If that's your budget, you buy something used. The irony is, by making it difficult to build high-end luxury condo towers, you push that demand elsewhere, and so instead, rich people do gut rehabs of formerly affordable townhouses, as they have across all of the South End.

If I were renting in the South End, I'd be very much in favor of all of these developments. The more that get built, the less likely that my place will be gutted and taken condo.
 
I care about the 'luxury units' only because they again call into question the project's suitability for public subsidy. Should economic development funds be spent in Boston's richest neighborhoods, or (say) to attract a factory to Lawrence?
 
Ron Newman said:
I care about the 'luxury units' only because they again call into question the project's suitability for public subsidy. Should economic development funds be spent in Boston's richest neighborhoods, or (say) to attract a factory to Lawrence?

An interesting point, Ron, but as many have observed, the public process surrounding the approval of this project contributed significantly to its current financial struggle to get off the ground. To see a different result of a public process (and the impact on less affluent communities than the South End), you need only consider the kangaroo courts that lead to the approvals of the Runway 14/32 and the Center-Field Taxiway at Logan.

Alternately, do you think the good people of the South End would be more receptive to 5-stories of low-income housing on this site? With all due respect, Shirley Kressel and her cabal wouldn't know malignant land use if it marched up and kicked them in the jimmy.
 
The subsidy isn't for the luxury condos, it's for the deck. If you went back to Winn/Cassin and told them, "we won't give you one penny that goes into the tower, but we'll pick up all the costs associated with the deck" they'd sign on in a heartbeat and CC would already be built. Decking costs much, much more than the piddly $10 million they are getting from the State.

A fair question is, would you rather subsidize the deck (which does provide public benefit, connecting the neighborhoods, creating some parkland, quieting and beautifying the area) or (to use Ron's example) instead use the same dollars for economic development or public housing in Lawrence. It's reasonable to favor the latter, but this literally has nothing to do with the fact that the tower contains luxury units. Indeed, you can rest assured that any benefit at all that accrues to those condos from the deck will be fully priced into the units (and hotel rooms) from the start!

There WILL be some "windfall" benefit that accrues specifically to owners and residents of buildings that are already in place - the row houses of Cortes Street, for example, which currently face the Pike. And those of us who live a few blocks away and cross the Pike bridges every day. Some of us are wealthy, some are not. It's a fair point that the entire neighborhood is in much better shape and better off than Lawrence. But let's be clear about who we are subsidizing. You can rest assured that the subsidy does NOT go to the folks who buy the expensive condos after the thing is built. This won't make them any richer. (And not building it won't make them any poorer, either).
 
^^^^^^^^

Not to mention property taxes to the city. I wonder how long it would take to recoup the 10 million just from the taxes paid alone.
 
TheBostonBoy said:
In this months issue of Boston Globe Magazine, it has section of articles about the upcoming construction in Boston and the big building boom. Anyone read it yet? It is sick...

Clarification, it's "Boston Magazine" - not affiliated with the Boston Globe.

July issue, on newsstands now, the Corddry brothers on the cover.
 
johnmcboston said:
I mean let's face reality here - they're doing this for money, not for any grand city benefit. So you really expect me to believe that this 700 million dollar project is not happening because they needed 10 million form the state? You're smoking something if you believe that.

I really don't understand why people think it's bad or dishonest or evil to make money. I just don't get it.

John, have you ever gone to a restaurant or to a store or purchased services? Do you think, when you order your veal parmesan, "all this restaurant is out to do is make money. it's not to promote healthy eating habits, or to feed people."? No, you think, "mmm veal parmesan, this sure is filling". clearly developers are out to make money, but in a capitalistic society it is the desire to make money that drives value-creation within an economy. and while this specific value-creation may have a negative effect on you, or you may percieve that it will (i dont think it will), the net positive effect to the economy and society as a whole outweighs that (percieved) negative quite severely.

When people systematically prevent businesspeople from creating value that would benefit society as a whole by relieving demand and increasing supply, therefore lowering prices in the market and making them more affordable for all, based solely on the negative effects it would have on them personally, it has devastating effects on society - hence boston's housing costs.
 
Read up on the history of the purple pill. You'll find that people can do things that are 100% in the bounds of legality with the intent to make money, and it is very, very evil. It depends on the context of how the person is making the money. Sure, the restaurant may not be evil just because it wants to turn a profit. AstraZeneca on the other hand....
 
i dont see the problem with making a drug that helps with acid reflux...

though we are getting off topic
 
new graphic from today's Globe, accompanying an article about Columbus Center getting more state and local financing.
1184313533_7464.gif
 
Boston Globe said:
$10m more sought for Columbus Center
By Thomas C. Palmer Jr., Globe Staff | July 13, 2007


The developers of the Columbus Center project in Boston, already under fire for a $10 million state grant to help with site preparation, are pushing for another $10 million from the Patrick administration.

And, despite criticism from some Democrats in the Massachusetts House , city and state officials appear supportive of the additional infusion of public funds.

Developers Arthur Winn and Roger Cassin originally requested $20 million in state aid for the project to help build the concrete platform over the Massachusetts Turnpike on which parts of the complex would sit. Last month the Patrick administration awarded the developers $10 million. At the time, the administration did not address the request for the other $10 million.

The Legislature has repeatedly declined to provide state development funds for Columbus Center; the funds awarded to the developers last month did not require legislative approval.

Legislative opponents renewed their attacks on the use of public funds for private development yesterday. "This is not an appropriate use of the job creation funds that the Legislature set aside in the economic stimulus package," Representative Martha M. Walz, a Back Bay Democrat who criticized the award of the first $10 million, said yesterday.

Winn and Cassin have also asked a city development agency to issue $32.5 million in tax-free Empowerment Zone bonds, which they would repay.

Boston officials, frustrated at watching Columbus Center sit on the drawing board for four years after it received city approval, this week said the project deserves the additional money. In addition, the Menino administration supports the use of the Empowerment Zone bonds for Columbus Center.

"It's our sense that these public monies are the only way this project is going to get off the ground," said Harry Collings, executive secretary of the Boston Redevelopment Authority. "We feel the benefits far outweigh the public money's participation."

Winn and Cassin calculate that they will contribute a total of about $53 million in public benefits and construction mitigation measures, including three parks and future park maintenance, 45 affordable housing units on site, 20 or so affordable units off site, recharging of groundwater wells in the area, and subsidies to future occupants including a day-care center and grocery store. The project itself will generate 2,600 construction jobs and 380 permanent ones.

The developers estimate the project will have received a total of $59.6 million from a variety of public financing sources, including loans, grants, and the value of the city bonds -- not counting the additional request of $10 million from the state.

A representative of the Massachusetts Executive Office of Housing and Economic Development, which would have to approve the remaining $10 million request, declined to say yesterday whether the Patrick administration would sign off on the funds, but made clear it strongly supports the Columbus Center project.

"Our goal is to get the shovel in the ground and the project moving forward," said Kofi Jones, a spokeswoman for the agency. A spokesman for Winn and Cassin said yesterday that, after a decade of planning, delays, and long searches for sufficient private and public financing to cover the massive residential, hotel, retail, and open-space development's cost, the additional funds should be enough to get the project started.

The developers also said the total cost is now estimated at $800 million -- up from an estimated $300 million six years ago.

Critics of the project again insisted that the developers had pledged in some of the 100-plus public hearings over the years not to seek public funding.

"Public subsidies paying for public benefits through a private entity that makes a profit doesn't make a lot of sense to me," David S. Mundel, a South End resident and opponent of Columbus Center, said yesterday. "Do we really want the project, given what they expect us to pay for it, or could we do better?"

Winn and Cassin have repeatedly denied they made any pledge to forgo public funds. In fact, they have argued that public financing was always contemplated on projects built on air rights of the turnpike corridor.

They cited "A Civic Vision for Turnpike Air Rights in Boston," a 2000 document published by the Boston Redevelopment Authority that set guidelines for design and development of projects over the turnpike in the city.

The concrete platform that would be funded in part by the state assistance is crucial to making those turnpike air rights available for the Columbus Center development.

"Air rights can help achieve longstanding urban design and public realm goals," the document states. "Meeting these goals will require an aggressive effort to obtain public and private funds."

Collings, who followed the permitting and review process closely, said this week he had reviewed the history and spoken with others who attended the meetings.

"There's no recollection a guarantee was made," he said. "There may have been a mention that 'at this time it isn't anticipated' there would be public funding. But there was never any anticipation that costs would spiral the way they have since."

When Winn and Cassin were designated as the developers of the air-rights space by the Massachusetts Turnpike Authority in 1997, Columbus Center's cost was pegged at about $300 million. But the costs of steel and other construction materials have escalated by up to 20 percent a year.

"Public subsidies paying for public benefits through a private entity that makes a profit doesn't make a lot of sense to me," David S. Mundel, a South End resident and opponent of Columbus Center, said yesterday. "Do we really want the project, given what they expect us to pay for it, or could we do better?"
They weren't expecting us to pay for years back and yet he whined back then and trust me, if they can do any better, the NIMBYs would have fought it to death anyways. They need to just shut up and get it done.
 
DudeUrSistersHot said:
i dont see the problem with making a drug that helps with acid reflux...

though we are getting off topic

Thus me telling you to read up on the history of it. (/end off topic)
 
Train tracks

Yes, I was surprised to see that the train tracks remain exposed between Berkeley and Arlington.
 
"Public subsidies paying for public benefits through a private entity that makes a profit doesn't make a lot of sense to me," David S. Mundel, a South End resident and opponent of Columbus Center, said yesterday. "Do we really want the project, given what they expect us to pay for it, or could we do better?"

Who's going to do better? What developer is going to want to step up to the plate after watching this saga?

Here's a comparison that should be drawn: by providing the money to deck the highway, the city is essentially providing buildable land. It's created new land before, and turned over such land to developers to profit from housing construction - when the South End and Back Bay were first built.
 
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