Crazy Transit Pitches

^ We've talked about this up-thread before. The idea would be that IF the Green Line is still a dispatching/overcrowded mess in 40-50 years AND the metro-area is ready to part with Storrow Drive, the Riverbank Subway would be a useful release valve for express services to Fenway/Kenmore from Govt Center.

Shallow Box-Tunnel on the footprint of Storrow transitioning to a short TBM under the Charlesgate/Muddy River to Beacon Street alignment to Kenmore. Don't move the GL station. That's a waste of time and money. Underpin parts of the GL station/tunnel with the BL tunnel/station. Provide BL connections to both Kenmore and Yawkey, making a Kenmore/Yawkey superstation. Spreads the Fenway Park crush loads much better than they are now.

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This is such a low priority though. There are plenty of projects to improve the Green Line's performance that Riverbank might prove to be a completely redundant use of resources. But it's probably the best option to continue the Blue Line past Charles/MGH.

Other option for Blue could be swinging north out of Charles/MGH to Charlestown. Like this:
y5w5IrU.png
 
I honestly think the whole thing is more compelling, not to provide Green Line relief, but to provide rapid service to the LMA. Also as a way to consolidate the D and the E, but that's secondary.

I agree, it's low priority, relatively speaking. Still, if we are comparing Blue-to-Watertown/Waltham with Blue-to-Longwood, I prefer the latter.

I've seen the Blue-to-Charlestown idea before. Have to admit, I don't quite see the appeal. What's your thinking on it?
 
I just don't think you're getting a subway/elevated down Brookline Ave. It's filled in salt-marsh/drainage basin with close abutting hospitals. Too much potential for expensive mitigation disasters. LMA does already have two rapid transit stops (Longwood on D and LMA on E). What LMA needs is more radial connectivity to Cambridge, not more connections to BBY and Downtown. That's where a GL Urban Ring boomerang comes in, with two flanks (from Harvard and MIT) to B to D to E. Getting Blue past Kenmore is something to start thinking about much later.

Blue to Charlestown just opens up more RT to that neighborhood, and shortens inbound trips for locals in the Navy Yard and riders of the 92 & 93. Connects MGH with Spaulding with a one seat ride on RT. Potential for future extension if Tobin is rebuilt/Rte 1 is rerouted in the future. I prefer the Riverbank routing myself. But you could also do both with branches out of Charles/MGH.
 
Crazy pitch: RL/OL Meet & Cross at Harvard

This would be a major project extending an Orange Line branch from Back Bay outbound under the Pike, then through Allston via a new four-track OL/RL tunnel to Harvard. The OL would take over the current Red Line ROW to Alewife, while the RL would turn south from Harvard to Lower Allston, then out Western Ave. and Arsenal St. to a new terminal at Watertown Square/yards.

Reconfiguration of Harvard station would take advantage of the often-discussed old RL tunnel through Eliot Sq. Additional tracks at Back Bay could be a parallel sub-level (terminating at BBY, or joining the current OL alignment to continue through downtown, onward to a future North-side OL branch), or a wye enabling trains from Cambridge to continue either South to Forest Hills or North to Oak Grove.

I like the new alignment you've proposed, especially because it allows you to divert the Red Line to Watertown. However, I think it would work better as a separate line, instead of as a branch of the Orange Line.

There are a couple of issues I see with branching the Orange Line there. The biggest is that, right now, the Orange Line's trackage is probably more or less at capacity. That means that the number of trains running downtown will have to stay constant under your proposal, which means that your new branch (as well as the current service to Forest Hills) will basically have to make due with half-time frequencies. That seems less than ideal to me.

You could mitigate this with your proposed wye at Back Bay, but that'd have to be a damn tight turn, or would basically entail building a hypotenuse subway under Massachusetts Ave. It's an interesting idea– turning the Orange Line into a collection of three service patterns: Oak Grove-Forest Hills, Oak Grove-Alewife and Alewife-Forest Hills. But it seems somewhat inelegant, and would still involve lowering the frequency of trains to each destination (though local density of service would remain unaffected– think of the difference between waiting at Copley to get to Newton Centre as opposed to getting to Arlington).

Also, making it a separate line leaves open the idea of using Red Line rolling stock, which would mean, if nothing else, the potential for shared platforms at Barry's Corner and potentially the existing Red Line platforms at Harvard, though I'm having a hard time imagining how you'd do this without blowing up the current Harvard Station.

I think this is only really crazy because it would entail a HRT “Little Dig” through Lower Allston into Harvard Square, probably at enormous expense, along with major renovations of Harvard and Back Bay stations, all likely to be billion-dollar projects. It would solve a lot of big problems with local transit at once though, increasing crosstown transit options, relieving or replacing several overburdened/underserved bus routes, providing new and improved service to several neighborhoods, and taking pressure off of the already overwhelmed DTX/Park/State/GC transfer nexus.

Any thoughts?

You'd probably also have to tunnel under the Pike west of Back Bay– unless you want to take lanes from the highway to lay down the rapid transit tracks (which I am always for, at least in this thread). Plus whatever tunnel/elevated you're gonna use to send the Red Line down Western Ave. and Arsenal St. This would be an extremely expensive project.

I think the question of whether or not the cost is justified would be settled by what you do east of Back Bay. If we're in for a penny, in for a pound tunneling-wise, then I say there are two choices:

a) tunnel under the railroad tracks all the way to South Station and possibly beyond: either a NSRL-esque route under the CA/T all the way to North Station, or a subway under Congress St to connect to serve the Financial District and connect to the Blue Line. The NSRL alignment would probably make a proper link infeasible, so I'm less keen on that. Congress St. would make much less sense if there were a Blue Line transfer at Kenmore, so maybe nix that, too.

b) actually do what Track 61 sets out to accomplish: split away at the curve going into South Station, bridge across the Fort Point Channel and meet up with Track 61 right around the Convention Center to serve the Seaport.

Actually, if the Olympics do come and there is an Olympic Village built in Allston, then I could actually see something like option B coming to pass. Maybe with EMUs instead, and probably without the Red Line diversion. Still, though.

In any case: this line would be a paradigm shift for Boston. The Red Line between Harvard and Downtown is probably the highest ridership area in the network, and this would add a second east-west belt across the region between those destinations, but shifted down to the currently developing areas: Allston and the Seaport.

I'm not convinced it exactly works as a circulator; seems to me that the bigger problem right now is bring transit to developing "satellite downtowns": Harvard/Allston, the LMA and the Seaport. And this does that pretty well.

Some maps: [edit: or not]

A built out network. Our jointly-proposed new line (in maroon, I'm calling it "The Belt"), Red Line to Watertown, Indigo Line DMU service to Fairmount and Riverside (potentially redundant in the case of the latter), SL4/SL5 service as is, a rebranded SL1, significant GLX expansion to West Medford, to Alewife via Porter (likely bearing the brunt of ridership, given the more direct route to downtown) and to East Boston via Everett and Chelsea [which should probably go all the way to Logan, actually], and potential Blue Line to Kenmore.

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Focus on The Belt. You can see I include branches to both South Station and the Seaport. Loathe as I am to lose the connection to South Station (though less so if we have multiple-unit service on the Boston & Albany between BOS and BBY), I don't think it makes sense to halve frequencies by keeping both branches; gotta pick one or the other. I also include a potential Congress St alignment.

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Focus on the Green Line North Expansions.

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I just don't think you're getting a subway/elevated down Brookline Ave. It's filled in salt-marsh/drainage basin with close abutting hospitals. Too much potential for expensive mitigation disasters.

Ah, but you forget, we're in the Crazy Transit Pitches thread, which means I can propose closing down Brookline Ave entirely and converting it to a surface-running ROW for the Blue Line with pedestrian and bikepaths! Muahahahaha...

(Haha, just kidding, of course.)

Sadly, you're probably right.

LMA does already have two rapid transit stops (Longwood on D and LMA on E). What LMA needs is more radial connectivity to Cambridge, not more connections to BBY and Downtown. That's where a GL Urban Ring boomerang comes in, with two flanks (from Harvard and MIT) to B to D to E.

Yeah, but that's boring to talk about, 'cause we talk about that all the time. ;) But yes, I do agree.

Getting Blue past Kenmore is something to start thinking about much later.

Very much agreed.

Blue to Charlestown just opens up more RT to that neighborhood, and shortens inbound trips for locals in the Navy Yard and riders of the 92 & 93. Connects MGH with Spaulding with a one seat ride on RT. Potential for future extension if Tobin is rebuilt/Rte 1 is rerouted in the future. I prefer the Riverbank routing myself. But you could also do both with branches out of Charles/MGH.

Hmm. Interesting. Just seems like a pretty roundabout solution for transit to Charlestown, though I suppose it's better than nothing. Would definitely like it better if it went across the Tobin to Chelsea, but it seems like the Grand Junction would be a better solution for Chelsea anyway.

I'm with you, obviously, on Riverbank, but, as I said, it's an interesting idea.

ETA: anyone have any idea why the images won't load? They're jpegs hosted on my Google site.
 
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How about constructing a new rapid transit line starting from the middle of Revere/Everett/or Chelsea....

Then.... you tunnel the subway to East Boston for one stop.
After that stop, it travels under the Harbor to Northern Part of Charlestown.
Place at maximum 2 stops in Charlestown's eastern edge.
Have a connection to Bunker Hill Community College and Lechmere.
Add some more stations on route through Cambridge.
Place a station at the Southern Edge of Cambridge.
Have a connection to one of the stops on the Green Line's B Branch.
From there, it can go in any direction to connect to other Green Line Branches.

^
Other option for Blue could be swinging north out of Charles/MGH to Charlestown. Like this:
y5w5IrU.png

It is worth considering, but I don't think that it is a good idea to bring a subway line in a U shape back to its terminal station.

I live in Charlestown and Eastern Charlestown doesn't have a lot of pedestrian traffic. It would be great to have a subway on the eastern edge, so people don't have to walk a mile to Bunker Hill or to Sullivan Square (through the many lanes of Route 99) or take a Bus to take a Train or 2 miles to North Station.
 
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How about constructing a new rapid transit line starting from the middle of Revere/Everett/or Chelsea....

Then.... you tunnel the subway to East Boston for one stop.
After that stop, it travels under the Harbor to Northern Part of Charlestown.
Place at maximum 2 stops in Charlestown's eastern edge.
Have a connection to Bunker Hill Community College and Lechmere.
Add some more stations on route through Cambridge.
Place a station at the Southern Edge of Cambridge.
Have a connection to one of the stops on the Green Line's B Branch.
From there, it can go in any direction to connect to other Green Line Branches.

Reminds me of a couple of ideas from upthread, especially this one from omaja. Interesting ideas!
 
I still think that the best way to get the Blue from MGH to Kenmore (under) is to go via MIT Mass Ave @ Memorial...riverbed PCBs are still less treacherous than Back Bay NIMBYs, and MIT people are likely more appreciative too, and it'd do a great job of connecting MIT to MGH and Longwood too, both tough trips today.
 
Extension of the Red line to Brockton Fair grounds?

Would it be possible to extend the Red line to the Brockton Rox Stadium and Brockton Fair Grounds? with a stop in brockton Center, and Holbrook/Randolph connecting to Braintree
 
Re: Extension of the Red line to Brockton Fair grounds?

was thinking they could use the stadium for olympic Softball and help Brockton out with transit into Boston via Red line service.
 
Re: Extension of the Red line to Brockton Fair grounds?

If Baseball and Softball get placed back in the Olympics they would be played in the same venue, which would most likely be Fenway Park and the Red Sox would have to take a real long road trip.

As for the Red Line, I think that Braintree is as far south as it will ever go as Brockton is simply too far away and would harm the Red Line's frequencies. Brockton would be better served by improvements to the Old Colony ROW that would allow for more frequent commuter rail schedules or even DMU/EMU service.
 
Re: Extension of the Red line to Brockton Fair grounds?

Agree with PJ. Brockton to Boston would be a long, slow, uncomfortable ride on a red line car. I'd much rather do it in a coach or _MU car with beefed up service. Only problem is, I'm pretty sure this line goes through the single tracked pinch point in Dot. Going double track there is supposedly a big project.
 
Re: Extension of the Red line to Brockton Fair grounds?

Yup. $$ much better spent on fixing the one-track pinch in Dorchester to improve Old Colony performance rather than trying to make the Red Line go past Braintree. Do that and there can be an Indigo Line to Brockton operating on 18minute headways.

A hypothetical Red Line past Braintree would make more sense going to Randolph center than trying anything as far afield as Brockton. But even that's so much fantasy.
 
Re: Extension of the Red line to Brockton Fair grounds?

If Baseball and Softball get placed back in the Olympics they would be played in the same venue, which would most likely be Fenway Park and the Red Sox would have to take a real long road trip.

As for the Red Line, I think that Braintree is as far south as it will ever go as Brockton is simply too far away and would harm the Red Line's frequencies. Brockton would be better served by improvements to the Old Colony ROW that would allow for more frequent commuter rail schedules or even DMU/EMU service.

By 2024, I think the Redsox will probably relocate to a different stadium. The new stadium will be used for Olympic baseball. Fenway Park will probably be turned into an historical site, but it will have the ability to play baseball.
 
Re: Extension of the Red line to Brockton Fair grounds?

By 2024, I think the Redsox will probably relocate to a different stadium. The new stadium will be used for Olympic baseball. Fenway Park will probably be turned into an historical site, but it will have the ability to play baseball.

The Sox seem to have backed away from a new stadium in the medium-term and are going all-in on revamping Fenway.
 
Re: Extension of the Red line to Brockton Fair grounds?

By 2024, I think the Redsox will probably relocate to a different stadium. The new stadium will be used for Olympic baseball. Fenway Park will probably be turned into an historical site, but it will have the ability to play baseball.

You must have just moved to Boston. This was discussed and considered for a decade and the decision with the support of basically everyone (city, fans, management) is that Fenway will remain Fenway for any point the foreseeable future. And I can tell you that there is no way that will change in the next few decades, if not ever.
 
Re: Extension of the Red line to Brockton Fair grounds?

You must have just moved to Boston. This was discussed and considered for a decade and the decision with the support of basically everyone (city, fans, management) is that Fenway will remain Fenway for any point the foreseeable future. And I can tell you that there is no way that will change in the next few decades, if not ever.

+1.
 
My crazy idea that I originally had for Storrow Drive (I've already posted it on this poll, http://www.archboston.org/community/showthread.php?t=3924 ,) and other people also brought up the idea, was to tunnel the whole road underneath for thru traffic off of 93 and the surrounding main roads.
This is already adding up to billions of dollars, not to mention the environmental effects.

On top of that, I removed the red line on the Longfellow and placed it underground, placing a subway station and connecting the blue line to the red line at the station. On the Longfellow, a bike lane and wider pedestrian path would have been placed.

In the area where Storrow Drive originally existed, parks, bike paths, and pedestrian walkways would have been placed.

P.S. I'm new to archboston, am I doing this right?
 
Current Ridership from the 3rd Quarter Ridership counts & My Ridership Projections for Metro North & New Jersey Transit based on Redevelopment underway or proposed along the various corridors and lines , agency projections , and some other state / county info...

New Jersey Transit - Hoboken Divison


Pascack Valley line - 9,200 (2014) > 20,800 (2025) , Hackensack has a massive amount of TOD planned for the Downtown area , around 8,500 units could be built near Essex & Anderson Street over the next 5 years. Emerson , Westwood , Park Ridge , Nanuet and River Edge all have small TOD and infill Planned near the Stations.

Bergen County Line - 5,240 (2014) > 15,800 (2030) , With the Wesmont Redevelopment & station Under Construction , numerous Infill projects proposed and underway near the Rutherford station Ridership should see significant growth over the next 10 years. Fair Lawn is working on a town master plan which would include overhauling both Radburn and Broadway stations and rezoning the Broadway corridor.

Main Line - 11,470 (2014) > 36,800 (2030) , with TOD Plans being drawn up in Clifton , Ridgewood , Ramsey , Suffern and TOD already built near the Lyndhurst Station with more being planned its safe to say that ridership will skyrocket over the next 10 years...


Morristown & Gladstone Lines - 60,420 (2014) > 100,700 (2025) , With High Density TOD and infill underway in South Orange , Morristown , Orange & East Orange Ridership should explode over the next 10 years. Downtown Newark near Broad Street Station is starting to make a comeback after years of neglect with New companies setting up shop nearby or relocating companies from the burbs... Smaller towns like Netcong , Dover , Maplewood , Short Hills , Chatham and Madison have smaller Downtown TOD and Infill planned. The Reopening of Harrison Station is in the works which should add a few thousand riders with all the Ultra-High Density TOD underway in that town.

Montclair-Boonton line
- 17,390 (2014) > 25,200 (2025) , Recently Downtown Bloomfield has seen a slow but steadily increasing redevelopment boom adding 100s of new units with thousands in the pipeline. The area near Wateseeing avenue station also has a few thousand units underway or in the pipeline along Bay Street in Montclair. Boonton and Little Falls have small infill and TOD proposed near there stations..

Newark/New York Division

Northeast Corridor - 117,360 (2014) > 210,000 (2025) , Just about every station on the Northeast Corridor with the except of Jersey Ave has TOD underway or Planned. Downtown Newark in recent years has began to see billions investments with Billions more planned along with neighboring Ironbound which has seen Infill in recent years. At least 70,000 units are in the pipeline for Downtown Newark & The Ironbound and while not all this newer ridership is destine for NEC , its still a sizable increase. Downtown New Brunswick is another city seeing massive redevelopment and Job growth. Although not as large as Downtown Newark's plans , it will still boost Ridership by a Sizable amount. Princeton JCT , Hamilton , Edison , Rahway , Linden and North Elizabeth all have at least 6,000+ new units planned for the area around the station along with Retail and Commercial space. Metuchen has a few thousand units in the works for the Downtown areas replacing the sea of parking with a garage and high density TOD. Monmouth JCT is new station being planned and will be attached to a large scale TOD project with Thousands of units , Retail and Commercial Space. Downtown Elizabeth and Trenton seem to have a few projects in the works but lag behind their other corridor peers. Jersey Avenue has a few proposals , along with Metropark...but nothing solid yet.


North Jersey Coast line - 21,830 (2014) > 35,600 (2030) South Amboy , Perth Amboy , Red Bank , Long Branch & Asbury Park all have TOD master plans for the areas around there stations. Redevelopment seems to be picking up along the corridor in recent years and ranges from infill along Main Street to former Industrial areas being redeveloped into high density TOD or Condos.. Point Pleasant , Belmar , Woodbridge , Bradley Beach all have smaller plans in the works... Avenel seems to have various proposals but nothing Solid yet.

Raritan Valley line - 23,190 (2014) > 31,320 (2030) , Cranford , Union , Plainfield , Somerville and Raritan all have TOD in the works near there stations or in the pipeline. There could be a restored station at Meeker Ave in the South Ward of Newark which would allow for some high density redevelopment.

Metro North

New Haven Line - 125,000 (2014) > 250,000 (2025) There are currently a few thousand units under Construction along the line in NY state and at least 10,000 in CT. Theres over 170,000 units in the works for various stations along the line. Cities like Stamford , New Haven , New Rochelle , Port Chester , Norwalk & Mount Vernon are where the bulk of those units with go. But Fairfield , Milford , Rye , Harrison , Greenwich ,West Haven , Pelham , and Stratford all have sizable TOD proposals in the works near there stations or in the Downtown areas.. Norwalk , New Haven & Stamford will decent growth in their job markets adding a decent amount of ridership. large Scale Retail Investments are in the works for near the South Norwalk , Bridgeport and Stamford Stations... Ridership should also increase with Hell Gate Service starting later this decade servicing a largely untapped reverse commuter population in The Bronx

Harlem Line - 43,076 (2014) > 74,200 (2025) , High Density TOD and Redevelopment is planned near the White Plains Station. Smaller Downtown Infill proposals are being drawn up in Scarsdale , Bronxville , Brewster , Katonah , North White Plains , Mount Vernon West and Tuckahoe... Upzoning is being proposed around Fordham Station...

Hudson Line - 44,509 (2014) > 57,100 (2025) High Density TOD is in the works for Downtown Yonkers with smaller Infill proposed near the Ludlow , Greystone and Glenwood Stations. Hastings on Hudson , Dobbs Ferry , Irvington , Tarrytown , Ossining , Poughkeepsie and Peeksill have TOD plans which either focus on the Riverfront / Station area or the Downtown Area. Cold Spring , Beacon , and The Bronx Stations have various small infill projects in the works.

Danbury Branch - 3,890 (2014) > 13,500 (2025) High Density TOD is being proposed in Norwalk along with a New station near Wall Street. Small Infill is proposed for the Merritt-7 , Bethel and Danbury. New Stations in Georgetown , North Danbury , Brookfield & New Milford along with infill in those towns will give a ridership boost to the line along with Job growth in Norwalk & Stamford...

New Canaan Branch - 4,160 (2014) > 16,200 (2030) High Density TOD along with a New Station on the Eastern Side of Stamford will boost Ridership on the Branch. Infill and Smaller Density TOD is planned near the Springdale & Glenbrook Stations...

Port Jervis Line - 3,190 (2014) > 5,800 (2025) , There isn't much underway along this line except some plans being drawn up for the area around the Harrimen & Sloatsburg Stations
 
Re: Extension of the Red line to Brockton Fair grounds?

You must have just moved to Boston. This was discussed and considered for a decade and the decision with the support of basically everyone (city, fans, management) is that Fenway will remain Fenway for any point the foreseeable future. And I can tell you that there is no way that will change in the next few decades, if not ever.

No. I have been in Boston for most of my life. Yes, Fenway Party will stay as Fenway Park. The Redsox might relocate to a new stadium somewhere else, but the park still stay where it is.
 
Any thoughts on making the Urban Ring entirely rapid transit subway with parts of it "at grade"?
 

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