Crazy Transit Pitches

Equilibria said:
But whatever do they do about the illiterate riders?

(That's not entirely a joke, as the Mexico City Metro uses pictograms for their stations for that reason, among others).
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If we're not using colors -- let's use Australian Marsupials -- there are enough of them and they're all quite unforgettable

Ted
 
whighlander said:
If we're not using colors -- let's use Australian Marsupials -- there are enough of them and they're all quite unforgettable

Ted
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Nah, gotta be Red Sox players.

I was trying to take the Cronin to the Airport, but there wasn't any connection between the Cronin and the Pesky so I had to jump onto the Williams at Park Street!
 
I like the fact that Boston still colors its trains , not many cities do that...it adds a unique flavor to the system. The Tokyo Metro and Subway color code there trains...
 
EVERYONE!

A ferry from New Bedford to Boston. Then cancel out South Coast Rail and tell Fall River to go screw themselves. Would it work?

It would be via Cape Cod Canal, of course.
 
This was the alternative proposed by people opposed to the Greenbush line.
 
What if I want to travel on land to visit my parents? Why don't SC residents deserve land travel? Ferries have an extremely small userbase. The users have to not be afraid of boats and also not get seasick.

That is incredibly small-minded and selfish thinking, UrbEx. How would you like it if your only public transit access to the city from Saugus was via ferry?
 
BostonUrbEx said:
Ferry proposal: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=217656314107067401485.0004bc697d21bd3939ea2&msa=0

Note this would have been what I'd have supported BEFORE the Greenbush Line was built. Now nothing productive can be done, since we've already wasted money and would just be wasting more now.
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Urb -- Ferries are by definition slow

No matter how fast you could run up/down the South Shore you are constrained to run slowly in/out of the both Boston and New Bedford Harbor and through the Cape Cod Canal

I'm guessing the travel time might be close to 4 hours each way -- even a Fung Wah Bus is better than that
 
datadyne007 said:
What if I want to travel on land to visit my parents? Why don't SC residents deserve land travel? Ferries have an extremely small userbase. The users have to not be afraid of boats and also not get seasick.

That is incredibly small-minded and selfish thinking, UrbEx. How would you like it if your only public transit access to the city from Saugus was via ferry?
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LOL_WUT_PEAR.jpg


If you want to travel by land then you could drive? Lakeville you are from, right? Greenbush Line doesn't go to Lakeville. You'd have to switch trains anyway. So, you transfer to the second train as you normally would, but you'd just be coming in from a different mode.

Who says they don't deserve land travel? They get bike paths and can keep their roads.

And trains require people who are not afraid of trains or easily claustrophobic or agoraphobia. I personally can't think of anyone that I know who I know gets seasick. Is it really a widespread problem?

I would personally love ferry service.



My rational here is that many of the people on the south shore did not want the trains to begin with. Half of the Greenbush Line stations are park & rides and completely miss downtown areas. The people said they liked the ferries and enjoyed them (hey, they serve alcohol, so whats not to enjoy on a boat with alcohol). Give them what they want. We spent roughly $600mil for a line with absolutely dismal ridership, and it is in competition with the ferries that were already there.

I'm perplexed as to how I'm being small minded and selfish. I wouldn't need to take this ever, and it sounds like this is what the residents wanted. So here it is.
 
Why should Fall River "go screw themselves?" That's a pretty harsh statement. I just don't understand why this residential area of SC Mass (Freetown, Fall River, New Bedford, etc) shouldn't be linked to Boston. Middleboro/Lakeville fills up quickly with the locals from Middleboro, Lakeville, and Taunton and is too far from these SC communities.

Edit: I'm not talking about Greenbush. I'm talking about your assault on SC Rail.
 
whighlander said:
Urb -- Ferries are by definition slow

No matter how fast you could run up/down the South Shore you are constrained to run slowly in/out of the both Boston and New Bedford Harbor and through the Cape Cod Canal

I'm guessing the travel time might be close to 4 hours each way -- even a Fung Wah Bus is better than that
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The T should not be in the business of running water transit at all, least of all the F1, F2, and F2H South Shore routes. Improve the 714 bus from Hull to Hingham Ctr. and/or alter its route to hit Nantasket Jct. or West Hingham on the Greenbush Line, increase frequencies on the 220 between Quincy Ctr./Red Line and Fore River + Hingham Shipyards, and extend the 220 the few extra blocks from Hingham Ctr. to the West Hingham Greenbush stop. That will be faster than anything on water, and the 220 then becomes a critical transfer link feeding Red Line or CR + the 714 to Hull. What does it cost to add a few rush bus trips clustered around the CR schedule providing rough approximation of the old ferry schedule? Few tens of grand? Or $0 if that's reassignment of staff and equipment from the largely superfluous truncations in the cuts plan.

Going to the Airport on the F2/F2H...use the @#$% Silver Line from SS. And have Massport put a stop on its Braintree Logan Express route at Quincy Center to connect to the 220. Or, if it means that much to these communities, add a Logan Express park-and-ride somewhere and some more limited pickup schedule on 3A in Hingham.

Hull would be the only place transit-penalized in any of these situations because the 714 runs seldom. Well...do your duty and make the 714 run a little more often. It's less of a transit loss than cutting back Greenbush AND ferry service. It brings in more revenue by focusing the commute on the commuter rail like it should be. And like the 220 any improvements on the 714 are divertable from the resources freed on the other bus cuts. Why didn't they attempt the revenue maxing and screamingly obvious cost savings here? Because those service cuts have zilch, zero, nada to do with cost control and everything to do with "I got mine" for the most influential political constituencies + absolving the T for another year for needing to confront its waste.


As for the others, if the F2 and F2H go there's no longer a need to run from Long Wharf to Logan because of the Blue Line. And Charlestown Navy Yard is closely paralleled by the 93 and 111 buses that travel up Route 1. Do some judicious looping timed around the old ferry schedule on those routes, or add a bus to that area of Charlestown. It's a transit-deprived neighborhood because the buses board Route 1 at the interchange with 99, so there are no local stops in the whole neighborhood around Chelsea St. With all the tourism and neighborhood density a new or reconfigured local route would haul in good revenue. More than the boat. And also at cost absorbed by the other far less crucial bus reductions.


Or better yet...take those two intra-Boston ferries private. Subcontract the New England Aquarium or somebody to do commuter runs. Coordinate ticketing so they can be bought on the T website and paid for off a Charlie. Then watch the NEA do backflips with all the revenue they gain--both commuter and tourist--by adding 2 more ferry terminal stops and high sales visibility through the T's ticketing system. They already loop around the Navy Yard on many of their trips to get a view of the USS Constitution, and pass by the Logan ferry terminal in plain view en route to the Harbor Islands. Gaining the ability to stop there is a big fricking deal for them, and they would provide very high-quality service.

Honestly, the money this mode chews up is pure waste and a pure pander to the spoiled brats in Hingham who demand--and always get--their cake and eat it too. They can lop that entire mode's cost off the state ledgers. I wouldn't even transfer ops to Massport. Massport can make more money off added Logan Express service. The T can make more money trading off for better bus frequency, adding a sorely-needed local to the dense and tourist-lucrative Charlestown/Chelsea St. area, and forcing the spoiled brats to actually use that ungodly expensive but very convenient commuter rail line they put the state through hell building. Total cost of all this...upper 5 figures for all? Absorbable by the bus cuts with MILLIONS in savings by zeroing out the redundant mode.


Reason #57 why the cuts in this new service plan are cynical, political agenda-loaded bullshit. If this wasn't on the table, then they were never trying in the first place.
 
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datadyne007 said:
Why should Fall River "go screw themselves?" That's a pretty harsh statement. I just don't understand why this residential area of SC Mass (Freetown, Fall River, New Bedford, etc) shouldn't be linked to Boston. Middleboro/Lakeville fills up quickly with the locals from Middleboro, Lakeville, and Taunton and is too far from these SC communities.

Edit: I'm not talking about Greenbush. I'm talking about your assault on SC Rail.
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The short answer is that they already are connected, by Rt. 24. It's not that I don't sympathize with what you are saying, but the amount of trips between SC and Boston is fairly low, a number that is better suited for bus transportation or private vehicle. Given the cost, well over $1 billion, to get rail to New Bedford and Fall River, it doesn't serve enough people to justify the level of investment. Far more could be achieved with the money if directed elsewhere. That's why BostonUrbEx is so angry about Greenbush. The amount of money spent was very high for what it achieves, particularly when there was already a valid transit option in place.

Now, before you get the wrong idea, I would very much like to see a rail connection between Boston and South Coast. But first I want to see a greater density development pattern between the two areas, so that rail is serving a more congested corridor. I envision a circumstance in which few people travel between Fall River and Boston, but perhaps many travel as far as Taunton or Stoughton. For now, the population and geography do not justify the rail investment.
 
HenryAlan said:
The short answer is that they already are connected, by Rt. 24. It's not that I don't sympathize with what you are saying, but the amount of trips between SC and Boston is fairly low, a number that is better suited for bus transportation or private vehicle. Given the cost, well over $1 billion, to get rail to New Bedford and Fall River, it doesn't serve enough people to justify the level of investment. Far more could be achieved with the money if directed elsewhere. That's why BostonUrbEx is so angry about Greenbush. The amount of money spent was very high for what it achieves, particularly when there was already a valid transit option in place.

Now, before you get the wrong idea, I would very much like to see a rail connection between Boston and South Coast. But first I want to see a greater density development pattern between the two areas, so that rail is serving a more congested corridor. I envision a circumstance in which few people travel between Fall River and Boston, but perhaps many travel as far as Taunton or Stoughton. For now, the population and geography do not justify the rail investment.
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It's a project that would need to be phased. Taunton...absolutely there's a transit need. 24 is hell north of 495, and 138/123 in Stoughton, Easton, and Raynham suck. The corridor is a sprawl-choked wasteland of big box stores that needs to get on the curve with sustainable planning before big box suburbia hits its permanent--accelerating--decline over escalating fuel prices limiting accessibility, range, standard of living...and, the commerce itself that they overbuilt. These areas have milked that kind of cheap-and-easy growth as far as it will get them, and have to start somewhere with integrated planning lest they slip back into economic ruin the next 15 years.

Downtown Taunton or Silver City Galleria at the 24/140 interchange definitely fits the MBTA district's focus on the 495 belt. I think that's very worthwhile to do, and the Stoughton Branch restoration is a use-it-or-lose-it proposition where completing the abandoned link between Stoughton and Route 44 Taunton opens up not only FR/NB but also Cape Cod by heading east on the old Amtrak Cape Codder route on the Middleboro Secondary. It would support a better Cape schedule than the Old Colony north of Middleboro where the single track Dorchester-Braintree and need to feed 3 lines through it hampers the max headways.

It may be painful to placate Easton, Raynham, and Taunton, but the upside of going through that grief is much higher than throwing $3/4B at a stub line to Greenbush that's speed-limited to 60 MPH, has that stupid-ass Hingham tunnel preventing a high-ridership downtown stop, and had to have tons of other niceties like expensive sound barriers and vibration controls put in...all in the name of NIMBY mitigation and political handouts.

The problem with SCR is that they are not thinking eyes-on-prize with the Stoughton Route...which is, after all, the only means of getting there with the NEC and Old Colony options spiked over fatal flaws. But they have spent 10 years doing an unprecedented pander to the towns south of there. With those ridiculous station designs like Whale's Tooth with its waiting room bigger than North Station's. And letting the Mayor of New Bedford and Freetown--frickin' Freetown!--bend them over about extra stations, extra station amenities, etc. All the while glossing over these fatal flaws:

-- The ridership projections keep getting adjusted quietly down. It's now projected that there'd be fewer than 500 daily riders south of Taunton on each branch's schedule. Apportion that to the stations on each branch and the individual boardings at the downtown FR and NB stops would be in the neighborhood of such major southside transit centers like Auburndale, Endicott, and Bellevue.
-- Added bonus: it's not enough to cover the fuel costs for daily operation south of Taunton.
-- To save cost, secure the EIS, and ease past the NIMBY's the Stoughton route is being proposed as mostly single-track with station platforms convertible later to 2-track. This is a major problem for supporting 2 branches at full schedule; there is not enough track capacity to do it. They have left this buried deep in the fine print while they wine and dine the South Coast, and when asked responded with a flat "we'll double-track it later". If it were well-publicized what the headways would be south of Taunton, the enthusiasm would dim considerably. But as is you can see the lunacy of building a palace like Whale's Tooth. They will get service levels more befitting a bare outdoor platform with a prefab tincan shelter like Bridgewater. And while double-track will certainly be easy to add, I don't think there's cause for doing it until Cape rail is going in earnest and the Stoughton Branch has 3 destinations it can fire on all cylinders to serve + general growth on the corridor.
-- The tax structure imposed on the towns for their piece of capital cost and for joining the MBTA district is extremely punitive. And likewise buried deep in the fine print and never discussed. Not only would enthusiasm dim, but outright opposition would break out en masse. This is dishonest. It's part of the political pander, because they won't have to seriously discuss it until the build is too far along to back out of, and the Governor and local pols have expended all their political capital + 1-2 elections of reelection favors before moving on to their next jobs.
-- THEY DON'T NEED IT NOW. The express buses to Boston aren't full, and are very easy. To get critical mass they need to do route-priming here. Get those express buses transferring at Middleboro in large numbers...today. Build the line to Taunton/Silver City and get those buses doing the really easy transfer. It's so fast and 24/140 are uncongested enough south (definitely not north) of that interchange that the speed and ease will encourage a commute market to develop where there is barely one now. But then let it develop for a minimum 10-15 years, because that ridership's got to materialize somewhere. Right now it drops off a cliff at 495.


Doing it ass-backwards with the pander first south of Taunton is only getting the towns on the Stoughton Route into the act. Easton wants 100% grade separation and the state to rebuild 138. Raynham is demanding sound walls, a new firehouse, and "rail safety education for schoolchildren". Taunton wants 2 stations on either end of downtown. This is insane. These sprawl-villes are in no position to be making Hingham demands. Goddamnit, the Raynham Dog Track is going to be an empty lot within 2 years and this is their only shot at redeveloping it without giving away the farm on some tax break to build another Lowe's Home Improvement big box that'll be out of business in 10 years. Who are they to be making these kinds of demands, and who are the state for listening to them??? It's because they gave the moon to Fall River, New Bedford, and frickin' Freetown first--before the NEC and Old Colony options were eliminated--and now these Stoughton route towns now hold the fate of the whole works in their obstructionism. Perfectly, absolutely awfully played leverage by the state.


And they think the feds are going to front them a billion dollars for an entirely local commuter rail route with no national or intercity coattails. And do it as a monolithic, not phased build. They have not approached Amtrak at all about a return of the Cape Codder--which Amtrak they would like long-term--because then rehabbing the Middleboro Secondary and extending the Old Colony at full speed at least to Buzzards Bay becomes top priority, and the first--not last--branch that would be fed from the Stoughton Route. Can't have that when you're chasing swing votes and there's more swing votes to be had in FR/NB first.

RIDOT very much wants to restore commuter rail to Newport by rebuilding the Sakonnet River rail bridge, connecting to the Fall River line, and running a Providence express via Attleboro and Taunton to serve the bad 195 commute market. But they're taking the next 15 years to build their NEC commuter rail to Westerly and Woonsocket-Providence commuter rail, since that covers four-fifths of the state's population. And they have a better chance of waiting until after the Cape Codder rehabs the Middleboro Secondary. Can't have that if Patrick is chasing votes now.

There's not a lot of freight right now. MassCoastal, the shortline that took over from CSX, is doing a tidy business...even reopening the track south of downtown Fall River to almost the RI border for a major new customer. But they're mostly sitting on future considerations. The ports of FR and NB need to be dredged for deeper boats to give them heavy freight volumes. Not as expensive as it sounds, but Massport isn't going to mount that effort for another dozen years. CSX needs its interchange route to get to MassCoastal upgraded to handle heavyweight freight cars...which means track rehab on the entire Framingham Secondary from Framingham to Mansfield and the entire Middleboro Secondary from Attleboro to Middleboro before it can take anything heavy that MassCoastal sends their way. What's the Framingham Sec. upgrade dependent on if they want state money this decade for the weight increase? Foxboro commuter rail. What's the M'boro Sec. upgrade dependent on if they want that next decade? Amtrak Cape Codder. Can't have that when you're chasing South Coast swing votes today.


They need Stoughton-Taunton to serve an immediately viable commuter market and give 24 sprawl-land a leg to stand on. They need to develop Cape transit and entice national investment in Amtrak to defray the track rehab cost. That prioritizes a Middleboro-Buzzards Bay CR extension first, Stoughton-Cape second. They need time and interim access to leverage the express buses to grow the whole South Coast transit market. They need to get the freight capacity TO the region higher...which makes Foxboro CR the path of least first resistance and highest immediate ROI (and inexpensive enough to swing while they're still paying off debt). They need to get freight demand FROM the region more robust with the port access. They need time to regroup after Stoughton's built to add that double-track. And they need to give Rhode Island a solid dozen years to complete its in-state CR rollout for them to be ready to engage on Newport, where Newport-Boston and Providence-Fall River-Newport are the value-addeds that will make the FR branch's revenue potential pay off.

This is in the lower-half of a Top 10 to-do list of jobs and phased builds they need to tackle and coordinate to make that investment worth it. They are starting with North Station-at-Whale's Tooth first. And assuming the money's gonna flow like buttah from there backwards, and people are going to be OK with the tax gotchas. This is a scam being perpetuated on the voters of that region. Nevermind the scam on the whole state that is letting the MBTA stay structurally broke without action.



Even in the lower-half of Top 10 for that region this has nowhere near the payoff for the state as a whole of Red-Blue, Blue-Lynn, Lowell-Nashua, South Station expansion, Peabody and the missing 128 park-and-rides, and probably a couple others. Not to mention billions in state-of-good-repair to improve/increase trips and revenue on all existing lines. All the shit they refuse to do because they're pursuing this and turtling under from structural reform.

This is corruption, pure and simple. There is a lot to hate about the stench permeating this project and how disingenuous the motives are. If it had been approached on transit instead of vote-pander grounds it probably would be built with half the cost, half the NIMBY freak show, proper engagement of other partners with vested interest in sharing the investment, and feasible project phasing. But that's not the game our pols play.
 
I appreciate the detailed response and learned a lot from it. I agree that a phased project is definitely appropriate and a station at 24/140 at Silver City (which is now sadly a failed mega mall) is the best option to start with. The commute on 24N is miserable from that point. That area is also very easy to access from NB, Freetown, and Lakeville (via 140) and also FR (via 24). The current Middleboro/Lakeville station is really a stretch for these SC towns.

A casino is also being thrown into this mix, as NB, FR, Free/Lake, etc vie for who gets to build it. Could the casino have any impact on SCR? What if the people in the burbs closer to Boston could take the CR south to Taunton or Freetown and then take a shuttle to the casino for the day? There are some intercity transit possibilities outside of Boston.
 
reaching out/"pandering" to FR and NB is needed to build the critical mass of support and population to move this forward. Taunton, with 60,000 people does not have the gravity to justify an expensive extension from Stoughton. You really need those 200,000+ from the South Coast. FR and NB hardly need the pandering. They really want the service.
Besides, the route from Taunton south to the others is a virtual cakewalk once the Hockomock Swamp is traversed. Tracks south of Taunton are already in use for freight service.
 
datadyne007 said:
I appreciate the detailed response and learned a lot from it. I agree that a phased project is definitely appropriate and a station at 24/140 at Silver City (which is now sadly a failed mega mall) is the best option to start with. The commute on 24N is miserable from that point. That area is also very easy to access from NB, Freetown, and Lakeville (via 140) and also FR (via 24). The current Middleboro/Lakeville station is really a stretch for these SC towns.

A casino is also being thrown into this mix, as NB, FR, Free/Lake, etc vie for who gets to build it. Could the casino have any impact on SCR? What if the people in the burbs closer to Boston could take the CR south to Taunton or Freetown and then take a shuttle to the casino for the day? There are some intercity transit possibilities outside of Boston.
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A pity that the Wampanoags did not buy the mall instead of the vacant land. All of the infrastructure is already in place at the mall - roads, proposed rail station, water, electric, etc. You could probably even keep some of the structure of the mall and redesign as associated parts of the casino. Save a bunch of money that way. Could even keep it as a shopping destination. If it is sovereign land in trust they could probably sell tax free stuff while they build hotel and gaming rooms. Then convert mall to upscale mall/conference center.
Oh, Well.
 
Semass said:
reaching out/"pandering" to FR and NB is needed to build the critical mass of support and population to move this forward. Taunton, with 60,000 people does not have the gravity to justify an expensive extension from Stoughton. You really need those 200,000+ from the South Coast. FR and NB hardly need the pandering. They really want the service.
Besides, the route from Taunton south to the others is a virtual cakewalk once the Hockomock Swamp is traversed. Tracks south of Taunton are already in use for freight service.
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Wanting the service is one thing. Utilizing it is another. The ridership projections on the Fall River and New Bedford branches do not pay for the cost of the diesel fuel and staff wages to run that distance south of Taunton. This is an inconvenient but intractible truth. Every time they refine the figures those boardings drop further. The riders aren't there. 20 years from now...they may be. But not without a concerted effort to prime the corridor for commuter rail. This doesn't work on a "build it and they will come" level. Didn't Greenbush teach us that well enough? Why aren't they templating the Middleboro and Plymouth lines where well-established buses like the Route 3 expresses and Brockton Area Transit were the lead-in and the CR stations were minimalist, then expanded (like M'boro parking + shops and South Weymouth). Why are they letting themselves get eaten alive by the New Bedford Mayor's demands for new stations and a few real pricks of selectmen in Raynham, and leading with Greenbush as a negotiating point for mitigation when the demands only ratchet up from there? Why are those "cakewalk" active tracks costing twice as much on the budget as the abandoned Stoughton route...could it have something to do with the jaw-dropping excess on those stations?

Find a way to grow the demand to support the service first. Building to Taunton, calibrating the express buses...that'll do it. Getting the buses really well-patronized and well-timed to the Middleboro station schedule is an excellent way to start today. Build the FR and NB branches 15 years later when the freight and shared usage from Cape rail and Providence-Newport involve other stakeholders, and when the Stoughton Line is established enough that they can add that required second track without a peep from the NIMBY's.

They aren't phasing it to make the cost and schedule doable. They aren't sketching out a roadmap to grow the ridership. They aren't involving other stakeholders. They aren't negotiating sensibly to keep expectations realistic with the towns. They are pandering cynically for votes. If they did any of the above this would resemble an actual implementation plan and justifiable "reaching out." I do not think the Governor or Legislature give a rat's ass about furthering this project other than to keep hope alive until they no longer need the votes, then punt it to the next generation of panderers. Just like the last generation of panderers punted it to this generation. If the pols wanted to build it wouldn't they have considered some implementation flex that would get it built? Never once have they moderated from all 10-figures of the build all at once, all the bells and whistles, ridership be damned.

South Coast is getting played for fools here. If they want this, they need to look at the inconvenient facts, call out the state for whispering sweet nothings and jewel-encrusted station plans into their ears, and make it known that they're well-aware of just how unrealistic this looks, and shift the conversation to what is realistic. Phased implementation. Route priming. The other stakeholders. Starting small...bare outdoor platform that later can get encased in North Station-at-Whale's Tooth. Sacrifice an intermediate stop to get the higher-ridership terminals up and running, then infill an extra New Bedford station a few years later. Help with other integrated planning that'll help spur demand (FR has a golden opportunity with the Route 79 teardown plan and the acres upon acres of redevelopment space completing that will open up).

Hot air is not momentum-building. Pandering is not reaching out. The Standard Times blowing sunshine up everyone's butt with another delerious Editorial is not informing the public. Public transit to the South Coast is a very, very NON-bullshit goal that has disintegrated into total, irredeemable bullshit. If it's going to be done ever, it can only be done by killing this plan dead and rolling it back to a sane starting point with implementation plan that...I don't know, obeys the laws of physics. Which, like all other needed reform, is probably only possible by gutting the State House of these rancid panderers and electing new leaders who have actual interest in leading.
 
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