Crazy Transit Pitches

[George_Apley]

Continuing from Fantasy T Maps, re: the prospect of ever getting Red past Arlington Heights, through Lexington to 128:

The portal was scheduled to be past Mill St. behind the High School, which only means 1.3 miles of surface running to the storage yard at Arlington Lumber behind the bus station. The ROW is 80 ft. wide from Brigham Sq. Apartments to Brattle Pl. from former freight sidings, and runs along a city park between Washington St. and Forest St. There's maybe 2000 ft. of pinched space where some rearranging or easement-taking from parking lots would be needed to give the trail buffered separation from the above-ground rail line, but for most of the distance to AH the trail can be as leafy and wooded as it is today shifted over several dozen feet. It's remarkably impact-free construction in the end, and an older/wiser Arlington probably isn't going to turn down the offer over any Minuteman concerns.

Lexington...oh boy, polar opposite story.

Agreed that Arlington is doable and the community would be on-board, especially for Arlington Center, and with some work, for Arlington Heights.

Lexington is a toughie and mostly with the sole goal of getting a big Park & Ride on 128. The lack of ideal placement for an intermediate stop between AH and Lex Center is a problem. The width of the ROW is a problem. The lack of (and prospective lack of) TOD outside of Lexington Center is a problem.

The portal I was talking about was one west of Lexington Center, because I can't fathom a surface heavy rail stop in the center. If HRT manages to get northwest of Arlington Heights, the tracks would have to portal down southeast of Woburn Street for a subway stop in Lexington Center. After Lexington Center where do the trains portal up? After Hancock St certainly, but if it's before Revere Street, that becomes a tough grade-crossing to nuke. If it's after Revere Street, that becomes a lot of cut-cover tunneling.

I think it's too tough. The rail gap is always going to exist to 128 through Lexington.

 

[cats10000]

New thread for pedways is here: http://www.archboston.org/community/showthread.php?t=5838

 

[George_Apley]

Cross-posting this from here: Providence Developments because more folks with interest in hypothetical transit will read this thread than the Providence thread.

It looks like the Crook Point Bascule Bridge over the Seekonk is being scheduled for demolition in 2026-2027

One additional interesting thing of note is that this is at the eastern portal of the East Side Railroad Tunnel (not to be confused with the Trolley Tunnel), which spans under College Hill (passing below the Brown University Sciences Library) and used to link Union Station to East Providence. The western portal is near N Main St. and Elizabeth St., pointing directly at One Citizens Plaza and potentially the Edge College Hill 2 even sooner. This tunnel has been shuttered for a long time and there appears to be no serious proposals for reuse, only a couple of sketches and musings. The main headaches seem to relate to how to link it in any way to the inconveniently relocated train station. While there are certainly many downsides and expenses to the following idea, I think it could be interesting to consider running a form of light rail from Moshassuck Ct. (or a tunnel under the Avalon to connect internally to the station), elevate to the tunnel, and then continue to a reclaimed East Bay Bike Path all the way to Roger Williams University. Perhaps an addition (directly under?) to the Mt. Hope Bridge could then carry it to the existing rail line to Newport (or a new tunnel - bore or c&c down 114).

It'd be about 30 miles of rail on largely (but not entirely) existing ROWs, with the opportunity for a couple of branches (for instance, east after Mt. Hope to go to Fall River MA on existing rail):

And could compliment the only existing RI regional rail plan, which is entirely focused on the NEC:

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

The bridge is so decrepit it pretty much had to be razed. Note, however that NEC FUTURE's proposal for an East Providence HSR bypass that was to pull all Amtrak traffic off the Attleboro Bypass would have involved an angled fixed bridge crossing on a NE trajectory by Waterman St...not an in-situ replacement for the current bridge with its sharp right-angle junction. Reconnecting to the mainline is much tougher than the bridge replacement.


As for light rail, the tunnel passes under so many destinations it's a lousy routing. Following the bus tunnel over to the unused center lanes of Henderson Bridge is the higher-leverage way of getting across.

 

[MjolnirMan]

As for light rail, the tunnel passes under so many destinations it's a lousy routing. Following the bus tunnel over to the unused center lanes of Henderson Bridge is the higher-leverage way of getting across.

While the tunnel was absolutely designed to bypass College Hill, I think you could have a reasonable number of stops and a decent catchment area there by digging only a single excavated station. Stop 1 would be at Providence Station, stop 2 would be "RISD" located at the western mouth of the tunnel, stop 3 would be "Brown" located approximately under the Sciences Library, and stop 4 would be "Eastside", located at the Eastern tunnel exit accessible from Gano St.

For the "Brown" midway station, you'd need to excavate on either side of the tunnel to build platforms/egress. I think this is accomplishable.

The tunnel slips by the Sciences Library tower, which actually has a large subterranean footprint extending from Waterman to Sciences Park (basically the area around the green bracket shapes). Besides cut&cover on Waterman/Thayer/Sciences Park for construction of platforms and headhouse(s), it's possible some of the existing excavated library space could be generously donated or managed by Brown in order to facilitate a light rail stop from the middle of their campus to Providence Station and Bristol/Newport.

E: Meanwhile a surface running rail from the Trolley Tunnel to Henderson Bridge is a reasonable path mostly on streets - if you didn't mind single-tracking part of it, and/or could demolish a half-dozen properties. There's the shop on Thayer, a house on Brook, you plow straight through the Lippett historical property, a building on Ives, and then have to go through Medway Place:

Basically, Providence has a habit of building things right in the way of what would be convenient for any new rail plans.

 

[George_Apley]

From Regional Rail (including North-South Rail Link)
with quoted context.

There is one bold approach that isn't mentioned. If you want Rapid rail service like Metro North has between Stamford and NYC, why not re purpose the Old Colony Right of way to heavy rail and build a major hub station around Savin Hill Where you can transfer to the Red Line? That would enable South Coast rail to use the Middleboro line as well.

Because there's no "there" to Savin Hill - it's almost entirely residential, not even a shred of demand from any of Old Colony to there, and a station location on a relatively quiet side street such that if you shifted the activity from JFK/UMASS there, you would have to re-engineer the entire station area, and enrage the surrounding community for something that doesn't benefit them at all (take a look at their cute little lot on Sydney St, and try to imagine UMASS shuttle buses there, and you'll see the problem).

It's far different from Stamford which has its own genuine bi-directional demand with office space nearby, and commuters coming from all directions. If you did want to cut back OC service to avoid the single track pinch, Braintree (as proposed) or Quincy Center would be less disruptive choices (and at least Quincy Center has something there... hardly a locus of demand but maybe just maybe something might be able to sprout up to take advantage of being the terminus of an OC shuttle?)

Once you do the cutback, converting to heavy rail frankly isn't necessary either, the station spacing isn't likely to change so why spend all that money - you don't need to convert everything over to heavy rail to get rapid service, just have those trains go back the other direction.

My point was to convert the Braintree section of the Red Line back to heavy rail, but electrified. It would enable rapid service between Boston Quincy and Brockton and not be as expensive because it could use existing Red Line stations and right of way. The idea of a hub at Savin Hill could better be described as a way to connect Dorchester with the heavy rail service. I think it would most certainly improve service on the original Red Line

Remove the Braintree branch altogether? In favor of urban-rail on 15-20 min headways? Why not just fix the Red Line and Old Colony pinch to have your cake and eat it too? This seems like reinventing the wheel when all it needs is some new spokes...

Because it connects Brockton to Quincy and Boston. It will improve the remaining service on the Red Line, and increases capacity to include South Coast service in that corridor. and It can be done without widening the current right of way where the Old Colony is single track.

But widening the ROW also accomplishes this task without wrecking existing rapid transit in Quincy. I don't buy the argument that it would improve service on the Red Line. Red's issues have nothing to do with the Braintree Branch. You're also ignoring major changes that would be made to the Red Line ROW to operate EMUs.

Call me crazy but I would also re locate the T Maintenance facility in Southie down to Savin Hill. And I would put the heavy rail on the existing bridge which goes over the old cut section where the Haul road is. The property there could make the T a lot of money (assuming the T actually owns it)

I'm guessing you're talking about displacing all the light-industrial and city-owned lots between Dorchester Ave, Freeport St, Dewar St and the ROW. Why do this when the existing yard can remain and air-rights can be sold?

 

[DominusNovus]

This us really just a historical question: have there ever been proposals to build a bridge or tunnel to Martha’s Vineyard?

 

[George_Apley]

This us really just a historical question: have there ever been proposals to build a bridge or tunnel to Martha’s Vineyard?

Apparently in 1966: TODAY IN CAPE COD HISTORY – THEY TRIED TO BUILD A BRIDGE TO THE VINEYARD IN ’66?

 

[DominusNovus]

Apparently in 1966: TODAY IN CAPE COD HISTORY – THEY TRIED TO BUILD A BRIDGE TO THE VINEYARD IN ’66?

Thanks! That said, damn, the vitriol is strong with that writer.

 

[George_Apley]

Thanks! That said, damn, the vitriol is strong with that writer.

Very. That said, I agree a bridge to the Vineyard would be ridiculous.

 

[roy_mustang76]

From Regional Rail (including North-South Rail Link)
with quoted context.

But widening the ROW also accomplishes this task without wrecking existing rapid transit in Quincy. I don't buy the argument that it would improve service on the Red Line. Red's issues have nothing to do with the Braintree Branch. You're also ignoring major changes that would be made to the Red Line ROW to operate EMUs.



I'm guessing you're talking about displacing all the light-industrial and city-owned lots between Dorchester Ave, Freeport St, Dewar St and the ROW. Why do this when the existing yard can remain and air-rights can be sold?

I’m curious, is there room in the ROW for a Red extension to Brockton? It would unbalance the branches, but that could be mitigated by Ashmont branch fulfilling its manifest destiny and swallowing the MHSL, with optional extension on to Fairmount to grab both Mattapan Square and Cleary Square. Brockton seems actually a decent fit for rapid transit potential, the way Lynn would also be.

That would be more WMATA-esque use of transit, but hey, this is crazy transit pitches right?

 

[The EGE]

Brockton is 19 miles from downtown Boston - twice the distance to Lynn. Quincy Center is more akin to Lynn than Brockton is. Salem, Beverly, Walpole, and even Framingham are closer to downtown Boston (and Back Bay) than Brockton is. It's a great potential terminus for frequent xMU service on an unfucked Old Colony main (with only QC and JFK north of Braintree), but it's just too far for the Red Line. Especially since there's basically zero density between Braintree and Montello.

 

[TallIsGood]

What about extending the RL to Weymouth? Could help jumpstart the Naval Air Station redevelopment.

 

[George_Apley]

Brockton is 19 miles from downtown Boston - twice the distance to Lynn. Quincy Center is more akin to Lynn than Brockton is. Salem, Beverly, Walpole, and even Framingham are closer to downtown Boston (and Back Bay) than Brockton is. It's a great potential terminus for frequent xMU service on an unfucked Old Colony main (with only QC and JFK north of Braintree), but it's just too far for the Red Line. Especially since there's basically zero density between Braintree and Montello.

This. Unfuck the Old Colony by putting Braintree under Ashmont after JFK/UMass to allow two tracks for the OC. Then run Urban Rail to Brockton at sub-1/2 hr frequencies. No reason to bring Red past Braintree, and it would really hard to do, because the OC ROW south of Braintree was never wider than two-tracks.

What about extending the RL to Weymouth? Could help jumpstart the Naval Air Station redevelopment.

Can't add a third southern branch to Red without fucking Braintree and Ashmont. Again, just focus on unfucking the OC pinch in Dorchester and the T can increase frequencies on all three OC branches.

 

[DominusNovus]

This. Unfuck the Old Colony by putting Braintree under Ashmont after JFK/UMass to allow two tracks for the OC. Then run Urban Rail to Brockton at sub-1/2 hr frequencies. No reason to bring Red past Braintree, and it would really hard to do, because the OC ROW south of Braintree was never wider than two-tracks.



Can't add a third southern branch to Red without fucking Braintree and Ashmont. Again, just focus on unfucking the OC pinch in Dorchester and the T can increase frequencies on all three OC branches.

I don’t think the suggestion was to make Weymouth a third branch, but to extend the Braintree branch to South Weymouth station.

 

[George_Apley]

I don’t think the suggestion was to make Weymouth a third branch, but to extend the Braintree branch to South Weymouth station.

Ah. I guess I'd ask where's the demand for Red Line levels of service, as opposed to better frequencies on the Plymouth Line? If South Weymouth blows up with more frequent rail service, then see if urban rail frequencies sub-30 min short-turning in South Weymouth can be accomplished. All that oughta be done before even thinking about extending Red to the south of Braintree.

 

[tysmith95]

Why in the world would you extend the red south? It already goes way further than the other rapid transit lines.

I'd extend the red out to Waltham using the Fitchburg or Lexington before I'd extend it south.

 

[bigeman312]

Why in the world would you extend the red south? It already goes way further than the other rapid transit lines.

I'd extend the red out to Waltham using the Fitchburg or Lexington before I'd extend it south.

Yes. Extending beyond Ashmont (to Mattapan via Milton) or Alewife (to Waltham via Belmont or to Lexington via Arlington) would make far more sense than extending beyond Braintree.

 

[roy_mustang76]

This. Unfuck the Old Colony by putting Braintree under Ashmont after JFK/UMass to allow two tracks for the OC. Then run Urban Rail to Brockton at sub-1/2 hr frequencies. No reason to bring Red past Braintree, and it would really hard to do, because the OC ROW south of Braintree was never wider than two-tracks.

And there’s the answer on ROW, thanks. I wouldn’t say I think extending Red past Braintree was a good idea (it’s not), more curious if it was even feasible from a ROW perspective, because BostonBoy got me wondering with his Savin Hill superstation idea.

Yes. Extending beyond Ashmont (to Mattapan via Milton) or Alewife (to Waltham via Belmont or to Lexington via Arlington) would make far more sense than extending beyond Braintree.

For the record, that need not be an either/or, and eliminating the MSHL is one of the more obvious choices to make in the system, Milton NIMBYs notwithstanding. The Red leads at Alewife are angled towards Arlington, which is unfortunate because Lexington is emphatically not on board with the program. Not sure how hard it would be to get Red over to the Fitchburg but I’m fairly sure it would be a bear.

 

[George_Apley]

For the record, that need not be an either/or, and eliminating the MSHL is one of the more obvious choices to make in the system, Milton NIMBYs notwithstanding. The Red leads at Alewife are angled towards Arlington, which is unfortunate because Lexington is emphatically not on board with the program. Not sure how hard it would be to get Red over to the Fitchburg but I’m fairly sure it would be a bear.

To the north, you're only getting Red going in the Arlington direction. You'd have to blow up Alewife to get to the Fitchburg ROW (*and* get past Belmont NIMBYs to get to anywhere worthwhile).

Waltham is best served in the medium term by urban rail 15-20 min headways from a Weston/128 park & ride to Boston. Maybe someday consider running a Green Line branch to Waltham out of Union and Porter via Fitchburg, but you'd have to bump the Commuter Rail to the old Central RR ROW in Waltham Center through to the Weston/128 station where it can rejoin the Fitchburg ROW.