Crazy Transit Pitches

[themissinglink]

while being expected to accept an argument that "it would be basically impossible to run Amtrak service without speed /time demerits" or that 25% of the ridership depends on Back Bay, on its face value. I am just saying, on personal operational experience, that an improvement in the Fairmount line so that speeds could be increased (which I believe is feasible from my operational experience) could make it feasible to run Amtrak on that line, arriving at Rte 128 Station at or near the same time , without losing a significant part of the customer base that currently uses Back Bay; also from personal experience of 8 years of Amtrak using that line during the construction of the new SW Corridor. Only a comprehensive study of the costs of increasing speeds on The
"F "Line would confirm my proposal. All I know for facts are: It's shorter; it would eliminate the dwell time at Back Bay, and our ridership didn't suffer when Back Bay was closed.
And somebody mentioned the running time to NY. Well, when we first started the service it was 3'18" to NY. But we could only make that time on weekends. All because of Metro North. But that should be on another thread. And How the heck do you guys know about all the T , The Northside, the old abandoned lines and how Dedham deep- sixed commuter rail, and bridge clearances on the B&A?! (where I started) You guys are amazing to read.

How am I expected to accept your argument that the Dorchester Branch can be on par with or superior than the Northeast Corridor in terms of speed and travel time if you aren't providing any proof or explanation of how that is possible? You're the one making that claim, the burden of proof is on you.

As previously stated, the Dorchester Branch is double tracked without opportunities for additional tracks north of River Street. Meaning any Amtrak trains would be limited speed-wise by commuter rail traffic, which has to make a number of closely-spaced stops. Even if there was not commuter rail interference, there are several curves which could potentially limit speeds even further, specifically the curves between Morton Street and Four Corners/Geneva.

 

[BostonBoy]

Those 8 years riding the Dorchester Branch happened in excess of 35 years ago. Before the U.S. had invested anything in high-speed improvements on the NEC. When New Haven-Boston was still a sub-100 MPH diesel railroad and the NEC all the way to D.C. still had a half-dozen states' worth of grade crossings. When there was no first-class service whatsoever extending to Boston at all. When intercity ridership in America was near its historical nadir. The market for Amtrak from 1979-87 could not be any more different than it is today. Again...you are doing a whole lot of personal-feels hand-waving at hard numbers you've been handed that show 1 out of every 4 Amtrak riders...current Amtrak riders, and the entire history of Acela and/or first-class service to Boston...using Back Bay instead of South Station. Substantiate that with something real if you insist on continuing to take up space in this not-a-God-Mode thread with it.

You have also not substantiated how speeds could be BETTER on the Dorchester branch. More severe curves?...[hand waves]. Have to blow up swaths of residences to get passing tracks?...[hand waves]. You haven't offered a shred of evidence to show how parity...much less the type of superiority that would entice Amtrak to willingly give up their preferentially-dispatched home route...is possible. You can say "But I believe..." until you turn blue in the face. It's not a substitute for evidence.


Again: we have a different thread for purely anything-goes/personal fee-fees proposals. It was created specifically because this one didn't encompass that. Crazy pitches still need to justify their existence on something real that rational actors will buy into. This is not something rational-actor Amtrak would ever in a million years buy into.

F Line. Take a breath. I worked on the territories OK? And do you really think that Back Bay riders would abandon Amtrak because they had to travel an extra mile to board the train? I don't. But, enough of the histrionics F line. It's off putting. I don't know what you do for a living but I ran trains for over 40 years and just relaying my thoughts through my experiences, that's all. If I can dig up a track chart of the Fairmount llLine I will, and we can check the degree of the various curves and spirals to see how fast the track could be. Because actually running on those tracks and telling you my experience is not enough. Faulted-human,signing out.

 

[Riverside]

@BostonBoy I appreciate the points you're making and, as a young(er) railfan, it's always great to hear the perspectives of folks who are more experienced than me (and especially of course it's always a pleasure to hear from folks who worked on the railroads themselves).

I think it's worth separating out two pieces of this conversation:

First, electrifying the commuter rail -- or at the very least electrifying the Fairmount Line -- is an excellent idea and is wholly uncontroversial on ArchBoston. Even among politicians and transit officials, electrifying the Fairmount Line is popular and mostly agreed-upon. Likewise, extending Fairmount Line trains to Route 128 (or probably more likely Dedham Corp Center) to enable reverse-commuting is also relatively popular and uncontroversial, at least at the conceptual level. I think we're all with you on that.

So the specific point of concern is about rerouting Amtrak trains over the Fairmount Line. For my part, there are some things that I like to hear about personal experiences to believe, and there are some things I want to see data. Ridership is one of those things I like to see data for; we know that personal experience just isn't as reliable for that stuff. Which isn't a knock on you! I just see personal experience as the wrong tool for this job.

From my perspective, I actually think that it's surprising that Back Bay has as much ridership as it does! Who are these folks? What journeys are they taking? If you're driving into Boston, why not drive to South Station (which is much nicer to wait for your train in)? Are these folks using Back Bay as a origin point (i.e. commuting to New York) or a destination (e.g. working at the Pru)? Since the Back Bay numbers already seem high to me, I'm that much more skeptical that they'd be willing to go the extra mile. Hence my interest in seeing some data.

If you have track charts, that'd be awesome to see! I was considering using an online radius calculation tool to measure the curves in question, but if you have something, that'd be great.

I'm still skeptical that it would be feasible to dispatch the high-speed non-stop Amtrak trains around the much-slower frequently-stopping commuter rail trains; however, if the speeds were high enough, perhaps it could work.

On a somewhat unrelated note, but since we're on the topic: did you work the NEC during the changeover from diesel to electric? What was that like? Did you ever work on any of the old Amtrak commuter lines, like the Beacon Hill?

 

[bigeman312]

From my perspective, I actually think that it's surprising that Back Bay has as much ridership as it does! Who are these folks? What journeys are they taking? If you're driving into Boston, why not drive to South Station (which is much nicer to wait for your train in)? Are these folks using Back Bay as a origin point (i.e. commuting to New York) or a destination (e.g. working at the Pru)? Since the Back Bay numbers already seem high to me, I'm that much more skeptical that they'd be willing to go the extra mile. Hence my interest in seeing some data.

Data

2019 Amtrak Data

46% of Amtrak boardings & alightings in Massachusetts occurred at South Station in 2019. The highest usage station by far.

21% of Amtrak boardings & alightings in Massachusetts occurred at Back Bay in 2019. The 2nd highest usage station.

Anectodal

I am an occasional Amtrak rider (one round trip per month on average), a frequent Orange Line rider (daily-ish), and a Jamaica Plain resident. When I board/alight Amtrak, I do so at North Station (for Downeaster) or Back Bay (for all other Boston services). In my experience, a very high percentage of riders alighting Amtrak trains at North Station or Back Bay make the transfer with me to the Orange Line.

I think many of us who board Amtrak at Back Bay are coming from or going to: west/southwestern neighborhoods in the urban core (Brighton, Allston, Brookline, Fenway, Back Bay, South End, Roxbury, LMA, Mission Hill, Jamaica Plain, Roslindale). For these locations, an Orange/Green Line, Uber/Lyft, or walking trip is shorter and easier for Back Bay than South Station.

For me personally, it's either:

• a 10-minute Orange Line ride to Back Bay. For a train leaving South Station at noon (and stopping at Back Bay at 12:05), I'd leave my home by 11:40.
• a 14-minute Orange Line ride followed by either a 0.3 mile walk from DTX to South Station or a transfer. Then, after boarding at South Station, I would back track on the train for five minutes to Back Bay. For a train leaving South Station at noon (and stopping at Back Bay at 12:05), I'd leave my home by 11:15.

A similar equation exists for anyone in the aforementioned neighborhoods.

 

[lainpimicaja]

Data

2019 Amtrak Data

46% of Amtrak boardings & alightings in Massachusetts occurred at South Station in 2019. The highest usage station by far.

21% of Amtrak boardings & alightings in Massachusetts occurred at Back Bay in 2019. The 2nd highest usage station.

Anectodal

I am an occasional Amtrak rider (one round trip per month on average), a frequent Orange Line rider (daily-ish), and a Jamaica Plain resident. When I board/alight Amtrak, I do so at North Station (for Downeaster) or Back Bay (for all other Boston services). In my experience, a very high percentage of riders alighting Amtrak trains at North Station or Back Bay make the transfer with me to the Orange Line.

I think many of us who board Amtrak at Back Bay are coming from or going to: west/southwestern neighborhoods in the urban core (Brighton, Allston, Brookline, Fenway, Back Bay, South End, Roxbury, LMA, Mission Hill, Jamaica Plain, Roslindale). For these locations, an Orange/Green Line, Uber/Lyft, or walking trip is shorter and easier for Back Bay than South Station.

For me personally, it's either:

• a 10-minute Orange Line ride to Back Bay. For a train leaving South Station at noon (and stopping at Back Bay at 12:05), I'd leave my home by 11:40.
• a 14-minute Orange Line ride followed by either a 0.3 mile walk from DTX to South Station or a transfer. Then, after boarding at South Station, I would back track on the train for five minutes to Back Bay. For a train leaving South Station at noon (and stopping at Back Bay at 12:05), I'd leave my home by 11:15.

A similar equation exists for anyone in the aforementioned neighborhoods.

100% concur with this - for Orange Line and Green Line riders, Back Bay is way more convenient.

 

[Scalziand]

Measuring the curves on the Fairmount in google earth, most have a radius of about 0.5 mile, which should be good for 80-90mph, provided traffic and track conditions are not constraints. If you want any faster you're gonna have to dig out the TNT.

 

[JeffDowntown]

100% concur with this - for Orange Line and Green Line riders, Back Bay is way more convenient.

I can also attest that coming in from the north on Commuter Rail, I will opt for the single connection of Orange to Back Bay, versus the transfer to get to South Station to catch an Amtrak to NYC.

 

[fatnoah]

And do you really think that Back Bay riders would abandon Amtrak because they had to travel an extra mile to board the train?

As a frequent Amtrak rider who's lived north of town and in Back Bay, I've basically found the stations to be roughly interchangeable. When I was convenient to the Red Line, South Station was easier and when I was convenient to the Orange Line, Back Bay was easier. Finally, when I lived in Back Bay, being able to walk to the station was a huge plus. Most of my travel was to NYC, so the REAL convenience of the train was at the destination.

All that said, if I was limited only to South Station, that wouldn't be a deal-breaker. Even when living in Back Bay, I'd occasionally get the train at South Station, especially when I was with the family and wanted to secure a table on a normally busy train. That's much easier to do at South Station.

re: North Station to NEC connection, Orange Line is definitely more efficient, but as a former daily Orange Line rider, I can't count the number of times I've seen a bewildered family with their luggage trying to figure out how they're supposed to get on a crush-loaded Orange Line train at 8am on a weekday. I have no idea how many people connect from NEC to North Station MBTA/Amtrak, but it seems like some kind of shuttle would really make that transfer much easier.

 

[bigeman312]

re: North Station to NEC connection, Orange Line is definitely more efficient, but as a former daily Orange Line rider, I can't count the number of times I've seen a bewildered family with their luggage trying to figure out how they're supposed to get on a crush-loaded Orange Line train at 8am on a weekday. I have no idea how many people connect from NEC to North Station MBTA/Amtrak, but it seems like some kind of shuttle would really make that transfer much easier.

We are in Crazy Transit Pitches, so ... *cough* North-South Rail Link *cough*

One of the many, many instances that a pain point could be alleviated by the North-South Rail Link. (I know you know)

 

[fatnoah]

We are in Crazy Transit Pitches, so ..

I submit that a shuttle makes so much sense that is, in fact, "crazy". However, I'll amend it to say that it should be a full Trackless BRT solution.

 

[kingofsheeba]

Best we can do is OL and RL down to Westwood. One day.

 

[guitarguynboston]

I'm actually surprised Back Bay Station's percentage isn't higher. Subway wise unless you're coming from the Red Line or northern Green Line all other lines seem easier to get to BB and even all Northern Commuter Rail Lines makes sense to take Orange instead of Green and switching to Red.

Maybe if some more concessions and other retail and a little TLC to the Station it might attract more people.

 

[Stlin]

Annectodally, because I live on Red, I default to South. I've only ever considered BBY when I'm bringing my scooter and thus my own means of getting back into Cambridge.

I'm actually surprised Back Bay Station's percentage isn't higher. Subway wise unless you're coming from the Red Line or northern Green Line all other lines seem easier to get to BB and even all Northern Commuter Rail Lines makes sense to take Orange instead of Green and switching to Red.

Maybe if some more concessions and other retail and a little TLC to the Station it might attract more people.

BBY was supposed to get a major facelift courtesy of a privatization agreement where, in exchange for air rights over the station for its Clarendon St Garage Redevelopment, Boston Properties (BXP) would become responsible for both a $32-37m renovation and future O&M. That plan, as presented in 2016, basically envisioned a Copley esque indoor promenade, with a "Shops at Back Bay" thing piggybacking above the station.

Construction was supposed to start in 2021, 2022 but as far as I can tell, there hasn't been any real significant movement on this since the approvals went through in 2019. Given that BXP wasn't going to build on spec and wanted signed office space tenants ... Who knows when or if it'll actually happen.

 

[BostonBoy]

@BostonBoy I appreciate the points you're making and, as a young(er) railfan, it's always great to hear the perspectives of folks who are more experienced than me (and especially of course it's always a pleasure to hear from folks who worked on the railroads themselves).

I think it's worth separating out two pieces of this conversation:

First, electrifying the commuter rail -- or at the very least electrifying the Fairmount Line -- is an excellent idea and is wholly uncontroversial on ArchBoston. Even among politicians and transit officials, electrifying the Fairmount Line is popular and mostly agreed-upon. Likewise, extending Fairmount Line trains to Route 128 (or probably more likely Dedham Corp Center) to enable reverse-commuting is also relatively popular and uncontroversial, at least at the conceptual level. I think we're all with you on that.

So the specific point of concern is about rerouting Amtrak trains over the Fairmount Line. For my part, there are some things that I like to hear about personal experiences to believe, and there are some things I want to see data. Ridership is one of those things I like to see data for; we know that personal experience just isn't as reliable for that stuff. Which isn't a knock on you! I just see personal experience as the wrong tool for this job.

From my perspective, I actually think that it's surprising that Back Bay has as much ridership as it does! Who are these folks? What journeys are they taking? If you're driving into Boston, why not drive to South Station (which is much nicer to wait for your train in)? Are these folks using Back Bay as a origin point (i.e. commuting to New York) or a destination (e.g. working at the Pru)? Since the Back Bay numbers already seem high to me, I'm that much more skeptical that they'd be willing to go the extra mile. Hence my interest in seeing some data.

If you have track charts, that'd be awesome to see! I was considering using an online radius calculation tool to measure the curves in question, but if you have something, that'd be great.

I'm still skeptical that it would be feasible to dispatch the high-speed non-stop Amtrak trains around the much-slower frequently-stopping commuter rail trains; however, if the speeds were high enough, perhaps it could work.

On a somewhat unrelated note, but since we're on the topic: did you work the NEC during the changeover from diesel to electric? What was that like? Did you ever work on any of the old Amtrak commuter lines, like the Beacon Hill?

I worked through freight from Beacon Parkto Selkirk NY on The B&A. From First Street to Springfield out via Readville,Walpole and Framingham, to Cedar Hill Ct via the Shoreline and the Springfield Line. On Local freights to Fitchburg, Lowell, Readville, So Braintree, Plymouth and West Hanover, Stoughton, So Walpole, So Dennis,Hyannis, Falmouth, New Bedford, The Washington Branch in RI, Hingham Shipyard and Nantasket Junction. Then went into passenger service, first on the Needham Branch and then on liners to New York. I might not be able to explain it on the pages, but I've lived it. So I get a little testy when somebody asks for data, when I mostly rely on experience. Sorry if I sound testy.

 

[HenryAlan]

The reality is a little more granular. Yes...you have to use Fairmount more often to prop up the backside of a Franklin Regional Rail schedule and do so without gapping out the clock-facingness of the frequencies. You don't, however, have to use it exclusively. Backfill slots will be available via the NEC. They just may not conform to the same clock-facing intervals, so you have to pick your spots. It probably won't be as full a slate as currently runs NEC-Franklin, but it can be a plenty useful number of BBY/Ruggles slots. So long as they don't infringe on clock-facing Providence or Stoughton/South Coast slots that have first priority for the NEC there's a lot of leeway for portioning the schedule, and nobody gets deprived of access.

This is kind of what I meant -- that there should perhaps remain some NEC Franklin routings on the schedule.

 

[HenryAlan]

From my perspective, I actually think that it's surprising that Back Bay has as much ridership as it does! Who are these folks? What journeys are they taking? If you're driving into Boston, why not drive to South Station (which is much nicer to wait for your train in)? Are these folks using Back Bay as a origin point (i.e. commuting to New York) or a destination (e.g. working at the Pru)? Since the Back Bay numbers already seem high to me, I'm that much more skeptical that they'd be willing to go the extra mile. Hence my interest in seeing some data.

This is anecdotal, but I suspect most Back Bay Amtrak riders work near the station and are starting their trip from the office. I used to do that quite often, though my preference was always South Station, even though I worked next door to Back Bay. The reason was that I found the process of boarding and selecting a seat far more relaxed at BOS than BBY. So if I had time, I took an inbound train first, to board Amtrak on the originating platform. That took longer, but I suspect most would be willing to do it if there were no option for boarding anywhere else.

 

[Scott]

Best we can do is OL and RL down to Westwood. One day.

How would the Red Line go to Foxboro from Ashmont or NQ? It is more west than south. And don't say via the Mattapan/Ashmont because it is well established that that can't be done

 

[themissinglink]

And don't say via the Mattapan/Ashmont because it is well established that that can't be done

It has not been "well established" that a Mattapan Trolley Red Line conversion can't be done. A Red Line Extension from Ashmont to Mattapan can and should happen.

 

[Scott]

Then prove it. Don't believe what the self proclaimed experts here say; they are playing Sim City. Their arguments rely on back of the napkin calculations and a suburbanites misunderstanding of the people

 

[HenryAlan]

Then prove it. Don't believe what the self proclaimed experts here say; they are playing Sim City. Their arguments rely on back of the napkin calculations and a suburbanites misunderstanding of the people

Or how about you prove it can't be done? If it's well established, then there are studies indicating why it doesn't work. You should have no trouble googling those up.