Crazy Transit Pitches

Do you have an updated fantasy map with this? Your Aqua line concept is not on your original fantasy map.

On the other hand, I'm torn on this because I want Kendall to have more links via a true line but also that ROW through Cambridge is probably best for the ring so, should the Everett Line take Rutherford to North to Bowdoin to Park and then become the Comm ave Subway? Should it take over the T109 and then go to Watertown and Waltham? Would Everett riders want a direct link to downtown? Would Watertown riders be mad about a forced transfer either at Harvard or Kendall to go downtown? Will Cambridge embrace being a city enough to have a line centered on it?
no but you could piece together the Pink Line and BLX West and you'd roughly get the same thing. I've made a crude Metro Maker map in the "Transport along the Grand Junction" thread.
 
I would consider any branch of the OL that doesn't serve Malden Center to be a complete non-starter,
Agreed.

But I have been thinking about how some modern tech would relate to branching. Right now the Orange Line is aiming for 4.5(?) minute headways when the new signaling upgrades are done. If there's a branch to Everett, then Malden gets a train every 9 minutes at peak, which is insufficient. But lots of lines around the world can run every 90 seconds using some combination of automation, CBTC, and driverless trains. If we could upgrade the Orange Line like that, then it could have a new branch (or two!) and each branch would have headways comparable to our planned peak for the Orange Line. You could build a branch through Everett, and Malden would still get its 4-ish minute peak headways.

It's certainly possible there are other problems with the Orange Line that make 90 second headways impossible, but then it's a question of how low would you need to make headways for a branch to make sense? 2.5 minutes? That would mean 5 minute headways on an Oak Park branch and an Everett branch. That might be worth it, if possible.

I don't know how much any of this would practically apply to the Orange Line. Mostly I think this could be interesting for anyone's fantasy crayoning. If you were planning a brand new line through downtown, it could do some branching, and those branches could still have phenomenally good headways.
 
Agreed.

But I have been thinking about how some modern tech would relate to branching. Right now the Orange Line is aiming for 4.5(?) minute headways when the new signaling upgrades are done. If there's a branch to Everett, then Malden gets a train every 9 minutes at peak, which is insufficient. But lots of lines around the world can run every 90 seconds using some combination of automation, CBTC, and driverless trains. If we could upgrade the Orange Line like that, then it could have a new branch (or two!) and each branch would have headways comparable to our planned peak for the Orange Line. You could build a branch through Everett, and Malden would still get its 4-ish minute peak headways.

It's certainly possible there are other problems with the Orange Line that make 90 second headways impossible, but then it's a question of how low would you need to make headways for a branch to make sense? 2.5 minutes? That would mean 5 minute headways on an Oak Park branch and an Everett branch. That might be worth it, if possible.

I don't know how much any of this would practically apply to the Orange Line. Mostly I think this could be interesting for anyone's fantasy crayoning. If you were planning a brand new line through downtown, it could do some branching, and those branches could still have phenomenally good headways.
I may be wrong about this, but I don't think 4.5 minutes is a headway limit for the new signaling. I think the 4.5 minute headway is more rolling-stock and operator limited.

I believe the new signaling would allow for as tight as 3 minute headways, but you have to have enough rolling-stock and operators to make that happen. Also, the crowded downtown transfer station dwells are going to play a factor, as we still have a lot of people making many more transfers than a more effective network (Red-Blue, NSRL) would eliminate.
 
Also, the crowded downtown transfer station dwells are going to play a factor, as we still have a lot of people making many more transfers than a more effective network (Red-Blue, NSRL) would eliminate.
Wouldn't 3 minute headways somewhat ease the dwell time issue? In theory it might mean half as many people waiting on the platform when a train arrives, for example.
 
Wouldn't 3 minute headways somewhat ease the dwell time issue? In theory it might mean half as many people waiting on the platform when a train arrives, for example.
Maybe, but if the line is split you add the issue that happens on the Red Line, where people waiting for the alternate branch train get in the way of smooth exiting and boarding. Many downtown platforms are really small -- it does not take much to slow down movement. Everyone on the platform would not board every train that arrives.
 
I guess it depends on how many people are needing to specifically select a branch vs simply needing to move through the downtown section served by the trunk. I would assume at least half of riders on the Orange Line between Back Bay and North Station are branch agnostic.
 
I guess it depends on how many people are needing to specifically select a branch vs simply needing to move through the downtown section served by the trunk. I would assume at least half of riders on the Orange Line between Back Bay and North Station are branch agnostic.
I agree. But it does not take very many clueless riders on they devices, standing in front of a door, and not moving, to clog up the works. If riders would just step back away from the train if they are not boarding it would be a big help.
 
I don't think it's possible to make that curve. Not only do the platforms at Assembly go further north, ending around Foley St, but there is also the Earhart Dam to contend with, plus the need to get 30-ish feet of height clearance over the river necessitates some pretty steep gradients. That part is probably doable but it's certainly not making it any easier. All three of those factors combined make me think it's not possible for an Everett Diversion to also serve Assembly and avoid demolishing part of the Gateway Center.
The dashed line is meant to indicate that the alignment is not precise. The gradient aspect is one I hadn't thought about, though, as you say, it's probably doable. I don't see why Gateway Center would need to be partially demolished though.
In terms of benefits, I think it's hard to justify. You wouldn't be catching that many people in the walkshed of a potential Sweetser Circle station, so you'd be relying on bus transfers. Which then begs the question, what does this project do that the Alford St busway doesn't do? I'd argue that it's not much.

This seems like a case where you either build a subway line through Everett or you don't, there's no half-assing it.
(Well, one thing to note is that the Wellington alternative, yes, does get a limited walkshed in Everett. However, the other alt I present would enable a station at, for example, Tileston St, which is more centrally located.)

In the past, I've felt similarly, that it doesn't give you much more than an Alford St busway does. It is worth noting, though, that getting to Assembly Square from Everett requires a 2SR today, which is a little silly given how close it is as the crow flies, and is due to the barrier formed by the river(s). And, I dunno. Like I said, I've started paying a lot more attention to the role of rivers, and maybe even entertaining the idea that any water crossing in an urban area should have a transit crossing.

(Which, in some ways, is already true: by my count, all but three of the crossings of the Charles River out to Waltham Central Square have some sort of transit service trasversing them, most of them bus. The shorter Malden and Neponset Rivers see transit over all crossings. The Mystic, by contrast, has something like six crossings without transit. Of course, for this proposal I am implying a higher standard of rail service at every crossing; but given the size of Everett and Boston, and the paucity of any Mystic or Malden Rivers crossings overall, the higher standard seems worth considering.)

I was also influenced by this:

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These are prospective "nodes" for Everett and Malden rapid transit services. The lighter colored circles are potential locations of stations if a route gets built along that corridor, but they themselves are not necessarily the "target" nodes for an alignment. What's notable to me is that both "Parkway" and "Square" can be served with an "Everett Diversion" style approach (at least in terms of raw deviation distance):

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Which brings us to a bigger question: more than where should an Orange Line extension to Everett go, the big question is where should the stations be?

This isn't a trivial question. From "Parkway" to "Glendale" is just over 1 mile. At Red Line stop spacing, that would point to stations just at "Parkway" or "Square" and then at "Glendale", running express through most of the denser half of the city. And is "Glendale" itself a strong enough draw for a station/node for that?

And on the other hand, Orange Line Southwest Corridor stop spacing is about 0.5 miles, which is where we'd see separate "Parkway" and "Square" stations along with an infill somewhere along Broadway. This calls to mind the distinction we were drawing in the GLR thread between the "Lechmere Model" (emphasizing transfer nodes) and the "Medford Model" (de-emphasizing transfer nodes and instead just focusing on serving the community directly).

Big picture, the question I'm trying to get at is whether there needs to be an "Everett Line" (or "Branch") or if an "Everett Diversion" would be sufficient. And the Diversion approach doesn't need to be thrifty! For example, a modest subway through downtown:

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Or, like above, a more curve-intensive option that maintains service to all current stations (potentially with a relocated Wellington platform):

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The ultimate question here is whether an Everett rapid transit service needs to have stations northeast of Everett Square. And maybe it does! I'm not trying to argue against that. But I do think that's what all this hinges on. If further stations past Everett Square are needed, then:
  1. It probably can't be served by the Orange Line, due to the need to maintain service to Malden (the exception being if Orange Line core capacity can aggressively increase, which seems unlikely). If it's not the Orange Line, then:
  2. The options to build a 1SR to downtown get complicated quickly, potentially including:
      1. A Green Line extension from the Green Line Maintenance Facility or East Somerville
      2. A new service, cutting some sort of greenfield route across Charlestown (or maybe swinging over from Chelsea)
    1. If none of those options work, then:
  3. An Everett service could run to Kendall and potentially onward to Longwood
    1. (Hitting both of these employment centers might mitigate the lack of 1SR to downtown)
Soooooo am I suggesting that it's a forced choice between "Everett <> Downtown 1SR" vs "rapid transit stations in northeastern Everett"? Not necessarily; anything is possible. But when you look at the system overall, the paths of least resistance seem to point to those objectives being hard to achieve in tandem.

The best compromise I can see, as mentioned above, would be a Green Line branch into an Everett subway:
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But... (insert comments here about frequencies, vehicle capacities, throughput capabilities, relative construction costs, and the fact that either way you're building about ~1.25 miles of subway so which one is gonna give you the most bang for buck, etc etc)
 
The best compromise I can see, as mentioned above, would be a Green Line branch into an Everett subway:
View attachment 59536
I personally think that's the best transit option for Everett, but the tunneled section would most likely be prohibitively expensive.

An all-surface alignment like this is more realistic, but it doesn't directly serve the densest part of Everett, north of Route 16.
everett-chelsea.JPG
 
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Re increasing Orange Line headways: I am increasingly intrigued by the prospect of higher frequencies through automation. But most of the examples I know of are either new systems or in places like London with populations much larger than Greater Boston's.

Just some back of the napkin math here: 90-second headways would be 40 trains per hour. The Orange Line has 20 stations, creating 40 "blocks" if we count each station as a block, each segment between stations as a block, and each turning time as a block. That means that 90-second headways would (in principal) require all of those blocks to be filled simultaneously -- every platform berthing a train, with trains in motion ahead and behind each station. (Or the equivalent distribution in motion, with two trains in motion in between each station.)

In reality, it wouldn't work like this, of course. For one thing the downtown stations are super close together, and it seems unlikely that you could have a train at State, and at DTX and another one in the tunnel between. But that in turn means that you would have to "pay" for that on the outer parts of the system.

Now, the "good news" is that 3-min headways would "only" require 20 trains per hour. So, a train in every station at the same time, or a train in every motion block at the same time. (Again, obviously this would be more complicated in the real world.) That's steep, but not unimaginable.

Still, it's a pretty high level of coordination required, and adding a branch into the mix complicates things further.

All of which is to say, I'm less keen on proposals that require major increases in capacity as prerequisites. (I mean, from a crayoning perspective, they're cool and imaginative and I'm onboard. But insofar as crayoning turns into serious proposals, I think it creates an uphill battle when we say "we can build a subway to Everett which will cost about $1.5B, but it will also require construction across the entire rest of the Orange Line to avoid reducing existing service.)
 
I would consider any branch of the OL that doesn't serve Malden Center to be a complete non-starter, which obviously limits the possibilities a lot. If there's going to be an Everett Subway I think the clear continuation is the Aqua Line to Watertown and Waltham via Kendall.
If you up the frequency to three minutes on the trunk, you could split it at Sullivan and still handle Malden and North. Don't forget that a healthy chunk of Malden comes from Everett busses, much of which would go to Sweeter is offered the chance
 
If you up the frequency to three minutes on the trunk, you could split it at Sullivan and still handle Malden and North. Don't forget that a healthy chunk of Malden comes from Everett busses, much of which would go to Sweeter is offered the chance
I'd love to see the data on this. (@TheRatmeister IIRC you've become a bit of a wizard for questions like this?)
 
I'd love to see the data on this. (@TheRatmeister IIRC you've become a bit of a wizard for questions like this?)
I think either myself or @Teban54 looked into this at some point and the data suggested that very little Malden Center ridership came from Everett. Most Everett buses go into Sullivan or Wellington so this isn't terribly surprising. I'll put it on the to-do list though, it should be doable since Bus-Bus transfers at Malden Ctr and Wellington are probably not a big thing.
 
I think either myself or @Teban54 looked into this at some point and the data suggested that very little Malden Center ridership came from Everett. Most Everett buses go into Sullivan or Wellington. I'll put it on the to-do list though.
This was my vague recollection as well, but I can't easily lay my hands on the analysis.
 
Screenshot 2025-01-21 at 12.06.39.png

Keep in mind this does not take into account bus-bus transfers, and doesn't isolate only the Everett stops, just routes that go through Everett. I highly doubt that 65% of Sullivan's ridership comes from people coming from Everett, for example. Here's the list of routes for each station:

Sullvan: 104, 105, 109 (Pre BNRD just keep that in mind)
Wellington: 97, 99, 105, 106, 110, 112
Malden Center: 97, 99, 104, 105, 106

General conclusions:
  • If we assume that 50% of bus riders at Everett transfer to buses to go to Kendall, while 50% go to Downtown or Longwood via the OL, then Sullivan is roughly 1/3 dependent on Everett ridership, although potentially less now that the 104 has been rerouted.
  • No matter how you slice it Wellington is highly dependent on bus transfers from Everett. An Everett subway would pass through Sweetser Circle and no-doubt steal much of this ridership.
  • That 20% figure for Malden Center is probably very optimistic. It includes the 105 and 106 which I would highly doubt many people are riding from Everett on. If they are omitted then it drops down to 11%.
Therefore, I think it can reasonably be said that if an Everett Subway was built, Wellington ridership would plummet, Sullivan would suffer both in terms of bus transfers and subway ridership but it probably wouldn't be catastrophic, and Malden Center would be basically unscathed. That would generally support the conclusion that branching the OL with basically anything worse than 90 second trunk headways is not a great idea.

I think the fact that an Everett Subway could easily connect to an Urban Ring serving Kendall and Longwood also hurts the merit of such a proposal, 90 second headways basically demand full automation which has proved to be very expensive. The full automation of the 10 mile long Paris Line 1 (About the same length as the OL) cost €750,000,000 (inflation adjusted), while the construction of the Line 14 extension cost around €360,000,000 per mile. The Sullivan-Longwood segment of the Urban Ring (Via the GJ) would be about 4.2 miles, for a price of roughly double what it would cost to automate the Orange Line, assuming the construction costs scale evenly from Paris to Boston. That seems like a better deal personally.
 
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I think the fact that an Everett Subway could easily connect to an Urban Ring serving Kendall and Longwood also hurts the merit of such a proposal, 90 second headways basically demand full automation which has proved to be very expensive. The full automation of the 10 mile long Paris Line 1 (About the same length as the OL) cost €750,000,000 (inflation adjusted), while the construction of the Line 14 extension cost around €360,000,000 per mile. The Sullivan-Longwood segment of the Urban Ring (Via the GJ) would be about 4.2 miles, for a price of roughly double what it would cost to automate the Orange Line, assuming the construction costs scale evenly from Paris to Boston. That seems like a better deal personally.
Wait, I'm sorry, can you clarify, are you suggesting that automating the Orange Line is the better deal, or building a Sullivan <> GJ <> Longwood service is better?
 
Wait, I'm sorry, can you clarify, are you suggesting that automating the Orange Line is the better deal, or building a Sullivan <> GJ <> Longwood service is better?
You need better radial transit to even make automation's breakneck headway target possible. If the downtown transfers are still overloaded, you won't achieve the 90-second headway target because the dwells at our very old and egress-constipated transfer stations will be too long and will have limited ceiling for improvement because of that egress situation. If automation is going to be extremely expensive and won't be able to hit its headway target because of dwells, it's better value to direct funds first to radial transit with outer transfers which will solve for the downtown dwells...even if it's a little more expensive in the absolute.
 
@TheRatmeister Thanks for pulling out that data. But I'm not sure I follow some of your conclusions

Therefore, I think it can reasonably be said that if an Everett Subway was built, Wellington ridership would plummet, Sullivan would suffer both in terms of bus transfers and subway ridership but it probably wouldn't be catastrophic, and Malden Center would be basically unscathed.
In that hypothetical, I'm not sure what's wrong with ridership numbers dropping at those specific stations. The goal isn't to keep ridership numbers high at Wellington Station. The goal is to move people from where they are to where to need to go. If an Everett Branch captures a lot of those riders, that's a good thing.

That would generally support the conclusion that branching the OL with basically anything worse than 90 second trunk headways is not a great idea.
I don't really understand how this follows from what you said. And I'm really not sure where the 90 second cutoff is coming from. Pre-covid, Malden was getting 4-5 minute headways. That's the current target again, once the new signaling is done. That would seem to be totally sufficient for Malden. So if there were an Everett Branch, why wouldn't it be sufficient to have 2-2.5 minute trunk headways? I don't want to sound like I'm nitpicking here, but that difference could be big. Running 1.5 minute headways will for sure require total automation. But 2.5 minute headways might not. The difference in required infrastructure could be $100s of millions.

I know the MBTA studied at least CBTC for the Red Line before they started this latest signaling project and found it wouldn't be worth it. I thought they did a similar study for the Orange Line, but I've never seen the specifics of that. Does anyone know where to find that?

90 second headways basically demand full automation which has proved to be very expensive. The full automation of the 10 mile long Paris Line 1 (About the same length as the OL) cost €750,000,000 (inflation adjusted),
Calling a project "expensive" gets trickier when talking about automation like this. In the long run, operating costs dwarf the capital costs, and automation is a way to drastically reduce those huge operating costs. Full automation and driverless trains would be a massive upfront investment. But if we then run twice as many trains, all day, with almost none of the associated labor costs, that's a massive win in the long run.


Just to be clear, I'm not really advocating for an Everett Branch of the Orange Line. I would not be surprised if it couldn't work out. But you seem a little too quick to dismiss it, and I don't really follow your logic why.
 
Therefore, I think it can reasonably be said that if an Everett Subway was built, Wellington ridership would plummet, Sullivan would suffer both in terms of bus transfers and subway ridership but it probably wouldn't be catastrophic, and Malden Center would be basically unscathed.
In that hypothetical, I'm not sure what's wrong with ridership numbers dropping at those specific stations. The goal isn't to keep ridership numbers high at Wellington Station. The goal is to move people from where they are to where to need to go. If an Everett Branch captures a lot of those riders, that's a good thing.
I think the point is that continued service to Malden Center is the highest priority, as the data suggest that its ridership demands would be unchanged by an Everett Subway (as opposed to Sullivan, which might become somewhat less critical, and as opposed to Wellington, which would become a much less important station if there were an Everett Subway).
That would generally support the conclusion that branching the OL with basically anything worse than 90 second trunk headways is not a great idea.
I don't really understand how this follows from what you said. And I'm really not sure where the 90 second cutoff is coming from. Pre-covid, Malden was getting 4-5 minute headways. That's the current target again, once the new signaling is done. That would seem to be totally sufficient for Malden. So if there were an Everett Branch, why wouldn't it be sufficient to have 2-2.5 minute trunk headways? I don't want to sound like I'm nitpicking here, but that difference could be big. Running 1.5 minute headways will for sure require total automation. But 2.5 minute headways might not. The difference in required infrastructure could be $100s of millions.
One question to ask is whether 4-5 minutes for Malden is/was sufficient. And I genuinely don't know the answer to that. I found a 2016 MPO Study that looked at crowding on the T. Their Orange Line section (infographic) says:

Northern Section

The northern section of the Orange Line brings commuters from the north including Charlestown, Everett, Somerville, Medford, Malden, and Melrose. Many of these commuters connect with buses, notably at Wellington, Sullivan Square, and Haymarket.

As seen in Figure 11, in the Base Year the Orange Line is overcrowded during the last half hour of the AM peak period between Sullivan Square and Downtown Crossing, and reaches an unacceptable level of crowding between Haymarket and State. Base-Year crowding is much less severe during the PM peak period, as seen in Figure 12.

The widespread regional growth projected for the No-Build scenario will add substantial ridership to the Orange Line, significantly increasing the Base-Year crowding patterns. Crowding will be unacceptable between North Station and Haymarket for an entire hour, and between 8:30 and 8:45 AM between Assembly and Chinatown.

Many of the 72 large-impact projects summarized in Table 5 and shown in Figure 4 will be served directly by the Orange Line. These include Assembly Row, Assembly Square, North Point, West End, Old Boston Garden, Downtown Crossing, and Northeastern University. The combined impacts of these projected developments would impact the Orange Line severely if it is still operating with today’s capacity, as depicted Figure 11. Indeed, if peak-period Orange Line capacity is not expanded meaningfully, then more than half of the congested situations in the AM peak period will be congested at the unacceptable level. The reciprocal congestion during the PM peak period mirrors the AM peak congestion but at a slightly lower level of severity, as seen in Figure 12.

The MBTA is planning to procure new Orange Line vehicles jointly with the new Red Line vehicles, which will expand its vehicle fleet by about 25 percent, and vehicle capacity by 10 percent. With better equipment utilization resulting from a much lower average vehicle age, the Orange Line might be able to move 40 percent more passengers during peak periods. This increased capacity will reduce the duration and severity of crowding greatly, but even this amount of added capacity would not eliminate unacceptable levels of crowding completely.

The Orange Line vehicle fleet could be expanded further and operated safely beyond what is planned currently. However, with a more ambitious expansion program, equipment storage and maintenance capacity also would need to be addressed.

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The three scenarios, Base Year, No-Build and Build appear at the top. The three AM peak-period hours are shown below each scenario name, and beneath the hours, there are arrows indicating the direction of travel. Alewife station appears at the top of all Red Line figures, but the direction of travel, indicated by the arrows, is away from Alewife in Figures 7 and 10 and towards Alewife in Figures 8 and 9.

Within each one-hour column are four positions where a crowding icon might be placed. The crowding icons are shown in the legend and indicate levels of crowding specific to Red Line vehicles as defined in Table 15. For instance, in the Base Year for travel between Central and Kendall/MIT crowding is apparent, with more than 114 passengers per vehicle between 8:30 and 8:45 AM, and between 8:45 and 9:00 AM. Two icons indicating “Overburdened” are placed in these two positions.

More crowding icons appear between 8:00 and 9:00 AM in the No-Build scenario, reflecting substantial regional growth and a large increase in Red Line ridership, as shown in Table 13. In this scenario, crowding between Central and Kendall/MIT begins at 8:15 AM, and between 8:30 and 8:45 AM there are more than 160 passengers per vehicle, indicated by the “Unacceptable” crowding icon. Detailed information about 2040 No-Build scenario passenger loads by station-pair and 15-minute interval are found in Appendix G.

The Build scenario includes trips generated by the 72 large-impact projects in the 20 sample TAZs. Both the duration and severity of AM congestion in this direction are greater than in the No-Build scenario; and the “Overcrowded” icon appears, indicating that the average vehicle is carrying more passengers than the “acceptably full” level shown in Table 15. Detailed information about 2040 Build scenario passenger loads by station-pair and 15-minute interval are found in Appendix H.
Based on the above, it sounds like 4-5 min headways were indeed sufficient for Malden, which is good news for an Everett Branch (although the data do also suggest significant crowding at Assembly, which does point to a need to branch north of there, rather than at Sullivan). If 2.5-min headways can be achieved in the core, then yeah, a branch could be doable.

2.5-min headways in the core, though... man I just don't know. (And really, if we are matching "4-5 minutes" at Malden, that points to 2 minutes in the core.) I'm not saying that it can't be done, but it also seems like it's far from certain that it can be done.
 

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