Crazy Transit Pitches
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They have jurisdiction over commuter rail, and could force ticketing to become standardized across state lines. Now, if you have a CharlieCard that works on trains in Massachusetts, California and everywhere in between, I like to think most agencies will convert on their own.
If not, commuter rail is half the battle.
Nexis4jersey
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Northeastern Regional / Intercity Rail Network
The New Haven - Springfield - Brattleboro Corridor is being upgraded to handle speeds of 125mph and will be completely double tracked from New Haven to Vermont which is about 119.08 Miles. The line will stay Diesel for now , but room will be left to Electrify in the future. The Upgrade will also reroute the Vermonter onto a New Route adding 4 new stations and shaving 45-70mins... The line will be rebranded as the Knowledge Corridor and run 10-12 round trip trains between DC/NY to Brattleboro and Interior Vermont. Hartford Union Station could be moved when I-84 is rebuilt as a Tunnel or covered through Downtown Hartford. If this were to happen the station would get 2 Island Platform's and 4 Tracks which would service Boston - NY HSR Trains and Knowledge Corridor trains. Springfield Station would also be rebuilt , although there isn't enough funding to do the master plan yet. New Haven Union Station would receive a European style shield above the platform area. The Projected Ridership for the Commuter and Intercity Rail by 2030 is 64,700....I think that warrants Electrification...which is only expected to cost 150 Million more onto of the 270 Million cost of Upgrading this feeder line.
The Downeaster is being extended 2 stations in Maine , with Maine launching studies to extend it as far North as Bangor. This line will also be upgraded and more sidings added to allow speeds up to 125mph south of Old Orchard Beach via Electrified trains in Push-Pull set. There is no target date for the Speed Increasing projects although the first Extensions to Brunswick,ME should in the Fall of this year. The line will enhancements and Future Commuter Rail and Streetcar feeders in Portland and Massachusetts will see between 6,800 people a day by 2030.
Hudson Valley Empire Service , Will be upgraded to support Speeds of at least 110-125mph , from Schenectady to New York Penn Station. All of the 159 miles between Schenectady and NY will be double tracked and concrete tracks laid to handle the increased speeds. All Stations will receive High Level Platforms and a New Station hall , Schenectady , Hudson & Rhinecliff–Kingston will be upgraded by 2025. A Swing Bridge between Manhattan and The Bronx will have to be replaced to handle all extra trains. New Equipment is being looked into for the faster service whether that is DMUs or the line is Electrified and its push-pulls that haul passengers up and down the line. Projected Ridership with Enhancements and including Hudson line riders by 2030 will be 95,300.
Lackawanna line will run from NewYork Penn or Hoboken Terminal to Binghamton about 195 miles. With 14 stations , a key part of line which will reconnect it to PA is under Construction. Phase 1 will open by 2013 , Phase 2 into PA could be completed by 2019 depending on funding. Once in PA , 70 miles of second track will need to be restored and space made for future Electrification... The Commuter Rail portion will run from New York Penn or Hoboken to Analomink,PA. Amtrak would pick up the rest of the 7 stations which are further apart and in less populated areas to support commuter rail.... The Top speed of this line even with upgrades would be 90mph... The Cost of this line is expected to be between 500-800 Million $ , most of which is the cost of restoring 2 Long viaducts in NJ to handle trains once again. Projected Ridership of the Lackawanna Intercity and Commuter Rail services by 2030 is expected to be 35,600 with seasonal ups and downs. This line would connect the popular Pocono Ski Resorts and Gateway Parks of the NYC region.... Seeing how this line was dead a few years and all the sudden is under construction gives me hope for other lines.
Lehigh line would run from New York Penn or Hoboken Terminal to Harrisburg via Allentown and Reading,PA. This line would be 168 miles long , and have 11 stations. Of the 168 miles , 70 miles needs double tracking to allow Amtrak , Commuter rail and Freight to all move smoothly...and in some areas of NJ 4 tracking is needed. This line would be Diesel....and have a top speed of 110mph. The Commuter Rail portion of the route would be operated by NJT and is an Extension of Raritan Valley line from High Bridge,NJ to Allentown,PA. The Lehigh Service would connect over 9 Colleges and Universities , Service a population of 1.5 Million and link together numerous Tourist traps between Harrisburg and NY/Hoboken. Projected Ridership for the Intercity & Commuter Rail services is expected to be 54,900. In Reading the line would connect to the future Reading line for Service south to Norristown and Philly and in Harrisburg to numerous Commuter rail lines to Lancaster , York and Carlisle,PA.
Keystone Corridor runs between Philadelphia and Harrisburg , its 104 miles long with 20 stations. 8 stations will be replaced or upgraded to include high level platforms , heated and A/C waiting area and some stations will have cafes and other leased space. The Wires along the Keystone line will be replaced by 2020 with constant tension to allow speeds up 125mph. 3 Grade Crossings will be separated later this decade. From Lancaster to Harrisburg a new Commuter Rail service will share the tracks which plans call for 2 tracks to be restored in some areas to allow for Amtrak and Commuter Rail service to pass by without any issues. Another station will be added between the 26 mi gap between Parkersburg and Lancaster to service the Amish Country which is a huge Tourism trap in that part of PA. Another Station is being considered in West Philadelphia and would have Trolley / Tram Connections. Commuter Rail Service which runs from Philadelphia to Thorndale,PA will be restored to Parkersburg when the New Switches to allow train turning is put in. A New Amtrak and Septa yard will be built in Thorndale in a former Freight yard. Downingtown will see its station move 400 ft to the East and the US 30 Underpass replaced to allow trucks and buses under. The New Station will have a Bus Terminal , Waiting Areas , and High Level platforms. In Philadelphia a Flyover that carries commuter rail service will have to replaced along with upgrades to the Zoo Interchange to allow trains to move faster and without conflicting... All Sub Stations will also be replaced , half of the keystone Corridor is already upgraded. Projected Ridership combining the Intercity and Commuter Rail Services is expected to be 110,000 by 2030.
Downstate Corridor service would run from New York Penn Station to Ocean City,MD , this line would be 122 miles along mostly straight track which would be replaced. This service would 12 stations. Trains would run up to 125mph on this corridor and connect the high population areas to the popular Coastal Gateway areas of Delaware and Maryland... There would be no commuter service on this line just Intercity Rail service. The line would merge onto the NEC in Newark,DE and service other cities and towns in Northern Delaware like Churchman's crossing , Wilmington and Claymont before heading to Philadelphia , Trenton , Newark and New York. Projected Ridership of this line would be 9,400 with seasonal ups and downs.
Northwest line will run for 86 miles between Baltimore and Harrisburg and have 8 stations. The line would service the I-83 corridor and the numerous historic sites and towns in between. The line would also connect into MARC service in Baltimore and with Commuter Rail service in Harrisburg and York. The line would have a top speed of 90mph and could be Diesel or Electric... Projected Ridership on this line combined with future commuter Rail ridership would be 13,000.
Virginia Regional Service , will be Upgraded to Speeds of 125mph and Electrified. The System will one day cover all of Virginia with 610 miles of track , with 10-15 round trips per day along the Main Trunk between DC and Richmond. Richmond to Newport News and Norfolk will see between 10-12 trains a day when the full build is completed. Richmond to Norfolk service is expected to start in December. Regional Service will be extended sometime later this decade from Lynchburg to Roanoke,VA. And all stations will be High level platformed to allow faster boarding and ADA accessibility... The Network currently connects various cities and towns in Virginia and is expected to grow to 120,800 daily riders by 2030 factoring Commuter Rail in Northern Virginia and Norfolk which will be running by then along the Norfolk branch.
Misc Northeastern system upgrades and mini projects to be done by 2030
-All Substations to be replaced
-Voltage on the entire Northeastern network to be brought up to 25 kV AC ,60 Hz
-Newark Penn Station Roof , Platform replacement
-Newark Penn Station platform extension to accomendate 22 cars
-European Style Train shield to cover the Platforms at New Haven Union Station
-South Station 5 Track Expansion and Train Shield
-Baltimore Penn Station Platform and train shield replacement
-All Lower Empire Service stations to be High Level platformed and expanded
-All Downeaster Corridors stations to be High Level platformed and expanded
-Downingtown Station will be moved to make way for a redevelopment and replaced
-Coatesville Station will be replaced as part of the long term Coatesville Plans
-Parkersburg Station will be upgraded to ADA compliance and expanded to handle Septa Service
-All Keystone Service stations will be high level platformed and expanded
-The Beast or Dock Bridges repainting
-New LED Signals to the Entire Northeastern Network
-50 New Acela Cars
-70 New Cities Sprinter Locomotives to replace HHP-8 and AME7 locos operating along the NEC and Keystone corridors
-60 New Amfleet cars for Regional Service not including the New cars for the new feeder lines
-Constant Catenary along the Keystone Corridor
-High Level Platforms to all Septa Stations along Amtrak corridors
-High Level Platforms to all MBTA Stations along Amtrak corridors
-High Level Platforms to all MARC Stations along Amtrak Corridors
Shorten list..
Lackawanna Cut-off - 195 Mi - 15 stations - Top Speed : 100mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders : 9,200
Lehigh Corridor - 170 Mi - 11 Stations - Top Speed : 100mph - Diesel - Projected Daily Riders : 17,400
Keystone Corridor - 104 Mi - 20 Stations - Top Speed (after 2025) : 135mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders by 2030 : 16,800
Downstate Delaware Corridor - 122 Mi - 12 Stations - Top Speed : 135mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders : 19,400
Northwest line - 86 Mi - 8 Stations - Top Speed : 90mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders : 14,800
Hudson Valley Empire Service - 159 Mi - 7 Stations - Top Speed : 125mph - Diesel - Projected Daily Riders by 2030 : 29,200
The Downeaster - 135 mi - 10 Stations - Top Speed : 125mph - Electrified by 2035 - Projected Daily Riders by 2030 : 14,200
Knowledge / Vermonter Corridor - 300 Mi - 20 Stations - Top Speed : 125mph - Electrified by 2035 - Projected Daily Riders by 2030 : 25,000
Virginia Railway Network - 610 Mi - 35 Stations - Top Speed : 135mph - Electrified by 2040 - Projected Daily Riders by 2030 : 95,300
Concord Corridor - 70 Mi - 8 Stations - Top Speed : 125mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders : 8,400
Cape Cod Service - 80 Mi - 11 Stations - Top Speed : 90mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders : 12,600
Cross England Express - 190 Mi - 9 Stations - Top Speed : 100mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders : 16,300
The New Haven - Springfield - Brattleboro Corridor is being upgraded to handle speeds of 125mph and will be completely double tracked from New Haven to Vermont which is about 119.08 Miles. The line will stay Diesel for now , but room will be left to Electrify in the future. The Upgrade will also reroute the Vermonter onto a New Route adding 4 new stations and shaving 45-70mins... The line will be rebranded as the Knowledge Corridor and run 10-12 round trip trains between DC/NY to Brattleboro and Interior Vermont. Hartford Union Station could be moved when I-84 is rebuilt as a Tunnel or covered through Downtown Hartford. If this were to happen the station would get 2 Island Platform's and 4 Tracks which would service Boston - NY HSR Trains and Knowledge Corridor trains. Springfield Station would also be rebuilt , although there isn't enough funding to do the master plan yet. New Haven Union Station would receive a European style shield above the platform area. The Projected Ridership for the Commuter and Intercity Rail by 2030 is 64,700....I think that warrants Electrification...which is only expected to cost 150 Million more onto of the 270 Million cost of Upgrading this feeder line.
The Downeaster is being extended 2 stations in Maine , with Maine launching studies to extend it as far North as Bangor. This line will also be upgraded and more sidings added to allow speeds up to 125mph south of Old Orchard Beach via Electrified trains in Push-Pull set. There is no target date for the Speed Increasing projects although the first Extensions to Brunswick,ME should in the Fall of this year. The line will enhancements and Future Commuter Rail and Streetcar feeders in Portland and Massachusetts will see between 6,800 people a day by 2030.
Hudson Valley Empire Service , Will be upgraded to support Speeds of at least 110-125mph , from Schenectady to New York Penn Station. All of the 159 miles between Schenectady and NY will be double tracked and concrete tracks laid to handle the increased speeds. All Stations will receive High Level Platforms and a New Station hall , Schenectady , Hudson & Rhinecliff–Kingston will be upgraded by 2025. A Swing Bridge between Manhattan and The Bronx will have to be replaced to handle all extra trains. New Equipment is being looked into for the faster service whether that is DMUs or the line is Electrified and its push-pulls that haul passengers up and down the line. Projected Ridership with Enhancements and including Hudson line riders by 2030 will be 95,300.
Lackawanna line will run from NewYork Penn or Hoboken Terminal to Binghamton about 195 miles. With 14 stations , a key part of line which will reconnect it to PA is under Construction. Phase 1 will open by 2013 , Phase 2 into PA could be completed by 2019 depending on funding. Once in PA , 70 miles of second track will need to be restored and space made for future Electrification... The Commuter Rail portion will run from New York Penn or Hoboken to Analomink,PA. Amtrak would pick up the rest of the 7 stations which are further apart and in less populated areas to support commuter rail.... The Top speed of this line even with upgrades would be 90mph... The Cost of this line is expected to be between 500-800 Million $ , most of which is the cost of restoring 2 Long viaducts in NJ to handle trains once again. Projected Ridership of the Lackawanna Intercity and Commuter Rail services by 2030 is expected to be 35,600 with seasonal ups and downs. This line would connect the popular Pocono Ski Resorts and Gateway Parks of the NYC region.... Seeing how this line was dead a few years and all the sudden is under construction gives me hope for other lines.
Lehigh line would run from New York Penn or Hoboken Terminal to Harrisburg via Allentown and Reading,PA. This line would be 168 miles long , and have 11 stations. Of the 168 miles , 70 miles needs double tracking to allow Amtrak , Commuter rail and Freight to all move smoothly...and in some areas of NJ 4 tracking is needed. This line would be Diesel....and have a top speed of 110mph. The Commuter Rail portion of the route would be operated by NJT and is an Extension of Raritan Valley line from High Bridge,NJ to Allentown,PA. The Lehigh Service would connect over 9 Colleges and Universities , Service a population of 1.5 Million and link together numerous Tourist traps between Harrisburg and NY/Hoboken. Projected Ridership for the Intercity & Commuter Rail services is expected to be 54,900. In Reading the line would connect to the future Reading line for Service south to Norristown and Philly and in Harrisburg to numerous Commuter rail lines to Lancaster , York and Carlisle,PA.
Keystone Corridor runs between Philadelphia and Harrisburg , its 104 miles long with 20 stations. 8 stations will be replaced or upgraded to include high level platforms , heated and A/C waiting area and some stations will have cafes and other leased space. The Wires along the Keystone line will be replaced by 2020 with constant tension to allow speeds up 125mph. 3 Grade Crossings will be separated later this decade. From Lancaster to Harrisburg a new Commuter Rail service will share the tracks which plans call for 2 tracks to be restored in some areas to allow for Amtrak and Commuter Rail service to pass by without any issues. Another station will be added between the 26 mi gap between Parkersburg and Lancaster to service the Amish Country which is a huge Tourism trap in that part of PA. Another Station is being considered in West Philadelphia and would have Trolley / Tram Connections. Commuter Rail Service which runs from Philadelphia to Thorndale,PA will be restored to Parkersburg when the New Switches to allow train turning is put in. A New Amtrak and Septa yard will be built in Thorndale in a former Freight yard. Downingtown will see its station move 400 ft to the East and the US 30 Underpass replaced to allow trucks and buses under. The New Station will have a Bus Terminal , Waiting Areas , and High Level platforms. In Philadelphia a Flyover that carries commuter rail service will have to replaced along with upgrades to the Zoo Interchange to allow trains to move faster and without conflicting... All Sub Stations will also be replaced , half of the keystone Corridor is already upgraded. Projected Ridership combining the Intercity and Commuter Rail Services is expected to be 110,000 by 2030.
Downstate Corridor service would run from New York Penn Station to Ocean City,MD , this line would be 122 miles along mostly straight track which would be replaced. This service would 12 stations. Trains would run up to 125mph on this corridor and connect the high population areas to the popular Coastal Gateway areas of Delaware and Maryland... There would be no commuter service on this line just Intercity Rail service. The line would merge onto the NEC in Newark,DE and service other cities and towns in Northern Delaware like Churchman's crossing , Wilmington and Claymont before heading to Philadelphia , Trenton , Newark and New York. Projected Ridership of this line would be 9,400 with seasonal ups and downs.
Northwest line will run for 86 miles between Baltimore and Harrisburg and have 8 stations. The line would service the I-83 corridor and the numerous historic sites and towns in between. The line would also connect into MARC service in Baltimore and with Commuter Rail service in Harrisburg and York. The line would have a top speed of 90mph and could be Diesel or Electric... Projected Ridership on this line combined with future commuter Rail ridership would be 13,000.
Virginia Regional Service , will be Upgraded to Speeds of 125mph and Electrified. The System will one day cover all of Virginia with 610 miles of track , with 10-15 round trips per day along the Main Trunk between DC and Richmond. Richmond to Newport News and Norfolk will see between 10-12 trains a day when the full build is completed. Richmond to Norfolk service is expected to start in December. Regional Service will be extended sometime later this decade from Lynchburg to Roanoke,VA. And all stations will be High level platformed to allow faster boarding and ADA accessibility... The Network currently connects various cities and towns in Virginia and is expected to grow to 120,800 daily riders by 2030 factoring Commuter Rail in Northern Virginia and Norfolk which will be running by then along the Norfolk branch.
Misc Northeastern system upgrades and mini projects to be done by 2030
-All Substations to be replaced
-Voltage on the entire Northeastern network to be brought up to 25 kV AC ,60 Hz
-Newark Penn Station Roof , Platform replacement
-Newark Penn Station platform extension to accomendate 22 cars
-European Style Train shield to cover the Platforms at New Haven Union Station
-South Station 5 Track Expansion and Train Shield
-Baltimore Penn Station Platform and train shield replacement
-All Lower Empire Service stations to be High Level platformed and expanded
-All Downeaster Corridors stations to be High Level platformed and expanded
-Downingtown Station will be moved to make way for a redevelopment and replaced
-Coatesville Station will be replaced as part of the long term Coatesville Plans
-Parkersburg Station will be upgraded to ADA compliance and expanded to handle Septa Service
-All Keystone Service stations will be high level platformed and expanded
-The Beast or Dock Bridges repainting
-New LED Signals to the Entire Northeastern Network
-50 New Acela Cars
-70 New Cities Sprinter Locomotives to replace HHP-8 and AME7 locos operating along the NEC and Keystone corridors
-60 New Amfleet cars for Regional Service not including the New cars for the new feeder lines
-Constant Catenary along the Keystone Corridor
-High Level Platforms to all Septa Stations along Amtrak corridors
-High Level Platforms to all MBTA Stations along Amtrak corridors
-High Level Platforms to all MARC Stations along Amtrak Corridors
Shorten list..
Lackawanna Cut-off - 195 Mi - 15 stations - Top Speed : 100mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders : 9,200
Lehigh Corridor - 170 Mi - 11 Stations - Top Speed : 100mph - Diesel - Projected Daily Riders : 17,400
Keystone Corridor - 104 Mi - 20 Stations - Top Speed (after 2025) : 135mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders by 2030 : 16,800
Downstate Delaware Corridor - 122 Mi - 12 Stations - Top Speed : 135mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders : 19,400
Northwest line - 86 Mi - 8 Stations - Top Speed : 90mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders : 14,800
Hudson Valley Empire Service - 159 Mi - 7 Stations - Top Speed : 125mph - Diesel - Projected Daily Riders by 2030 : 29,200
The Downeaster - 135 mi - 10 Stations - Top Speed : 125mph - Electrified by 2035 - Projected Daily Riders by 2030 : 14,200
Knowledge / Vermonter Corridor - 300 Mi - 20 Stations - Top Speed : 125mph - Electrified by 2035 - Projected Daily Riders by 2030 : 25,000
Virginia Railway Network - 610 Mi - 35 Stations - Top Speed : 135mph - Electrified by 2040 - Projected Daily Riders by 2030 : 95,300
Concord Corridor - 70 Mi - 8 Stations - Top Speed : 125mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders : 8,400
Cape Cod Service - 80 Mi - 11 Stations - Top Speed : 90mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders : 12,600
Cross England Express - 190 Mi - 9 Stations - Top Speed : 100mph - Electrified - Projected Daily Riders : 16,300
Last edited:
DominusNovus
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Quick question: What population density do you guys think is generally sufficient enough for light rail and subways?
0 if zoning permits dense development 
What's your goal? Remedial transit? Or something that practically pays for itself? I think you want enough density to support a diverse urban neighborhood with a variety of things going on, jobs, homes, etc. Probably upwards of 60-100 dwelling units per net acre. Jobs can be even denser where commercial activity exists. Basically, if it's a place where people happily walk around for daily life, then it's also a place where people will use the station, and there'll be two-way traffic all day.
What's your goal? Remedial transit? Or something that practically pays for itself? I think you want enough density to support a diverse urban neighborhood with a variety of things going on, jobs, homes, etc. Probably upwards of 60-100 dwelling units per net acre. Jobs can be even denser where commercial activity exists. Basically, if it's a place where people happily walk around for daily life, then it's also a place where people will use the station, and there'll be two-way traffic all day.
Nexis4jersey
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It depends , Diesel Light Rail can work with Low to Medium Densities and spread out populations. Where as Electric Light Rail requires Medium to High Densities to work , low densities won't get a good return investment. Subways work best with High to Ultra High Densities...or too connect Semi Dense areas with Ultra Dense areas.
DominusNovus
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What would you define low, medium, and high density at, roughly speaking? How many thousand people/sq mile?
BostonUrbEx
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I personally would probably say:
Rural - Under 1000/sqmi
Low - 2500/sqmi
Medium - 5000/sqmi
High - 10,000/sqmi
Ultra - Over 20,000/sqmi
Rural - not sufficient
Low - debatable
Medium - feasible
High - very feasible
Ultra - you should probably go heavy rail subway
Rural - Under 1000/sqmi
Low - 2500/sqmi
Medium - 5000/sqmi
High - 10,000/sqmi
Ultra - Over 20,000/sqmi
Rural - not sufficient
Low - debatable
Medium - feasible
High - very feasible
Ultra - you should probably go heavy rail subway
20,000/sq mi really isn't "ultra" density in any sense. Back Bay, Fenway, South End, Davis, etc. are all over that threshold and I don't think anyone would classify those areas as ultra dense a la Manhattan, Tokyo, Mexico City, Paris, etc.
I posted the below list in the thread about A Line reactivation but this could be useful benchmarking. Seems like really the bare minimum for rail would be 5,000/sq mi, but that would obviously need to be anchored and supplemented by much higher densities across the corridor.
Density (people/square mile) ZIP Code Neighborhood
63,135 02113 North End
36,211 02115 Fenway
27,933 02116 Back Bay
25,340 02118 South End
24,819 02108 Beacon Hill
21,667 02139 Central/Inman/MIT
21,274 02446 Brookline-North
21,069 02144 Somerville-Davis
17,817 02145 East Somerville/Magoun
17,334 02141 East Cambridge
16,129 02143 Somerville-Union
15,460 02140 Cambridge-Alewife
15,276 02134 Allston
14,620 02150 Chelsea
14,498 02135 Brighton
13,539 02127 South Boston
12,672 02138 West Cambridge/Harvard
12,080 02129 Charlestown
9,073 02130 Jamaica Plain
8,358 02453 Waltham-South
7,245 02472 Watertown
5,625 02445 Brookline-South
5,285 02132 West Roxbury
4,992 02109 Financial District
4,048 02452 Waltham-East
I posted the below list in the thread about A Line reactivation but this could be useful benchmarking. Seems like really the bare minimum for rail would be 5,000/sq mi, but that would obviously need to be anchored and supplemented by much higher densities across the corridor.
Density (people/square mile) ZIP Code Neighborhood
63,135 02113 North End
36,211 02115 Fenway
27,933 02116 Back Bay
25,340 02118 South End
24,819 02108 Beacon Hill
21,667 02139 Central/Inman/MIT
21,274 02446 Brookline-North
21,069 02144 Somerville-Davis
17,817 02145 East Somerville/Magoun
17,334 02141 East Cambridge
16,129 02143 Somerville-Union
15,460 02140 Cambridge-Alewife
15,276 02134 Allston
14,620 02150 Chelsea
14,498 02135 Brighton
13,539 02127 South Boston
12,672 02138 West Cambridge/Harvard
12,080 02129 Charlestown
9,073 02130 Jamaica Plain
8,358 02453 Waltham-South
7,245 02472 Watertown
5,625 02445 Brookline-South
5,285 02132 West Roxbury
4,992 02109 Financial District
4,048 02452 Waltham-East
F-Line to Dudley
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That is awfully small for JP. Do those figures correct for the landmass of the Arboretum and cemetery? Inhabitable JP is way, way, way denser.
BostonUrbEx
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I guess I was more referring to an entire municipality's overall density. If Boston's total density was 20,000, then I'd say it's ultra when viewed in it's entirety.
No, these are raw total population / total land area which, like you mention, will skew areas like JP, Brighton, Charlestown, Harvard, etc. that have larger percentages of their total land area dedicated to civic uses. Not perfect or completely apples-to-apples, but this provides a rough sketch. My guess is inhabitable JP is somewhere in the 20K/sq mi range.
As you can see, those large grain numbers aren't useful for transportation planning, which needs to look at what's in walking distance of a station. The portion of Allston around Comm Ave has densities on the same order as Back Bay or Fenway, while it's grouped with Oak Square which is semi-suburban.
czsz
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You can find numbers by census district on the census website, which are generally more accurate as the districts are smaller. I did an analysis of Boston in the early 00s (after the last census) and the numbers were way higher in some cases than the zip code versions. The North End was about the same, ~60k, the north slope of Beacon Hill around 80k. The densest district though was East Fenway, at over 100k ppl/sq mi.
Most of the city clocked in around 20-40k, which was consistent across triple decker and some rowhouse neighborhoods (the South End). Back Bay came in higher, somewhere between the Beacon Hill and South End numbers.
Most of the city clocked in around 20-40k, which was consistent across triple decker and some rowhouse neighborhoods (the South End). Back Bay came in higher, somewhere between the Beacon Hill and South End numbers.
HenryAlan
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Interesting, that's quite high. I assume the analysis excludes things like parks and water, which means that the populated areas of Boston are generally high density and could certainly work well with more rail transit. Did you also examine Cambridge/Somerville/Brookline?
Nexis4jersey
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They don't count college students , otherwise the almost 90,000 students living in New Brunswick would 5x the density...
czsz
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Yes, I excluded tracts that were mostly parks and/or water in that analysis. I was definitely surprised by how high the densities were in triple-decker Boston and/or that the South End was low enough density to match them (because rowhouses had been turned into single family houses often, maybe?) It definitely makes the case for more rail transit, particularly on the Indigo Line and/or Blue Hill Ave. corridors and into Southie, which was at the upper end of that spectrum.
I don't remember figures for Cambridge/Somerville/Brookline as well but I think they were similar (only for northern Brookline, though, not the more suburbany, southern parts). Harvard Square, if I remember correctly, had tracts around it up to 40k.
F-Line to Dudley
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North Cambridge probably depresses the Cambridge numbers a bit because a lot of the homes are owner-occupied and not subdivided. And of course Kendall's going to have a little bit of similarity to the Financial District for being so dense for commercial it's got very little residential and turns up almost a zero.
I wish there were a heat map for these sorts of things, because parkland and non-mixed commercial put the numbers through a bit of a funhouse mirror. Needham, for one, always turns up misleadingly low densities because of the enormous land mass of Cutler Park and the reservation land west of Needham Jct. relative to total area of the town. The equal-acreage landmass in between Cutler and Ridge Hill Reservation is hella dense, comparable to densest parts of Newton.
I know somebody who works for City of Cambridge doing GIS work, and they were internally crunching a years-long census project that basically counts occupancy in "3-D" and accounts for building type/floors. That would allow them to weigh things like triple-decker occupancy vs. high-rise vs. lower-occupancy (such as the predominately 2-story, but very closely-packed, area around Lechmere) and return more useful data that accounts for the functional differences in residence types. Haven't talked to her in awhile so I don't know what they are doing with this data and if it will ever become public, but it's the kind of sortable database-cum-Google Maps we'd all salivate over.