Crazy Transit Pitches

[Riverside]

B&A is going electric eventually - it's a matter of when, not if. Far too important a corridor not to go electric. Double-tracks, at minimum, on the entire line again - probably triple-tracking anywhere we can get it if not full 4-tracks. Possibly something is going to be done about Palmer Junction as well, to eliminate the need to reverse direction on a trip Springfield - Amherst. That's less important, though.

I disagree with you on one point - while most of the 'Springfield Network' isn't yet a winning proposition (and maybe not for a while), NHV-HFD-SPG is clearly winning enough of a proposition for Amtrak to have a non-insignificant presence of service on that corridor. The MBTA could definitely move into that market and recoup the costs of doing so pretty easily, if only they had yards over there.

Oh sorry, I wasn't clear. The 495 Commuter Rail service that was proposed in the article that czsz posted isn't a winning proposition at all for the foreseeable future, in my view.

I totally agree with you about NHV-HFD-SPG needing commuter rail service. It seems to me that, once you institute that, the next step is to send trains up to Northampton and Amherst to connect to the colleges there. You got some of the best colleges in the country (in the world, in a couple cases) up there, and if I were the Mayor of Springfield, I'd be very interested in linking up with them economically. I bet the Mayor of Holyoke would also be interested in bringing commuter rail to the region; he's working very hard to revitalize that community.

Getting the B&A electrified would make SPG-WOR service more palatable and would eventually generate a market for SPR-WOR-BOS, I would think.

I actually think a modest Springfield commuter rail network is not a bad idea. Combine it with a modest RIDOT network and you can suddenly go a lot of places without a car and without a hugely expensive ticket.

 

[Equilibria]

I disagree with you on one point - while most of the 'Springfield Network' isn't yet a winning proposition (and maybe not for a while), NHV-HFD-SPG is clearly winning enough of a proposition for Amtrak to have a non-insignificant presence of service on that corridor. The MBTA could definitely move into that market and recoup the costs of doing so pretty easily, if only they had yards over there.

Commuter Rail on that ROW is already happening and I don't think the MBTA has anything to do with it:

http://www.nhhsrail.com/

Connecticut DOT is running it and it's basically funded and ready to begin construction. The MBTA's role would only be to run service from Springfield to Worcester and Boston.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

Commuter Rail on that ROW is already happening and I don't think the MBTA has anything to do with it:

http://www.nhhsrail.com/

Connecticut DOT is running it and it's basically funded and ready to begin construction. The MBTA's role would only be to run service from Springfield to Worcester and Boston.

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy! That looks pretty good, actually!

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

How much more to drop in a freight track and full-high those platforms anyway? If it's only going to be another $8~$15M, it's probably worth doing.

It's already a full-blown 800 ft. platform. Franklin Line's never going to have full highs from Endicott to Plimptonville because of that freight clearance route to Readville, and thus will never be able to use the automatic door coaches. Or high platform-only EMU's. They don't gain a single thing by throwing down a passing track and blowing up perfectly up-to-spec infrastructure.

$84M is dirt-ass cheap for all the track work, the layover, double-tracking on the Franklin from Norwood Central to Windsor Gardens, and the baseline station amenities like electronic signs and whatnot. Start going full-rebuild, especially when it's going to do that little extra for accessibility, and this starts getting into gold-plated 3-story headhouse territory like those gaudy money sinks in Littleton and South Acton. $84M x 2 is not so cheap, and not so worth it. This whole plan pretty much hinges on a quick-and-clean bootstrapping onto the freight considerations. What's there does everything a full-time commuter station surrounded by a sea of lots is supposed to do. Let Kraft pony up for the bling if that station is supposed to be a centerpiece.

 

[rdeastcl]

so would this take the place of the proposed boston-montreal HSR that they were trying to have go through New Hampshire?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Commuter Rail on that ROW is already happening and I don't think the MBTA has anything to do with it:

http://www.nhhsrail.com/

Connecticut DOT is running it and it's basically funded and ready to begin construction. The MBTA's role would only be to run service from Springfield to Worcester and Boston.

MBTA can't run out-of-district under the charter revision that went into effect with the forward funding legislation. Except in cases like Rhode Island where every single penny of proportional costs outside the district is reimbursed. Pioneer Valley's transit authorit(ies) aren't hefty enough or chartered powerfully enough themselves to "own" the service like Rhode Island Dept. of Transportation can. The towns between Springfield and Worcester would all have to vote to join the district. This is why we've got that patronage cesspit South Coast Rail Task force promising everyone down there ponies. The T can't interface 1-on-1 with the out-of-district towns and has to have an intermediary until the towns have officially joined. Do we really want another one of those? Because I'm dead certain a lawless Governor's council could invent a way to make the already full passenger-rated B&A cost a half-billion dollars.

Besides, Amtrak's 2025 service plan calls for 10 Inland Regionals + an extra Lake Shore Limited. And that does not include other service patterns like Boston-Montreal starter service which would flush 2-3 more at least as far as Palmer, or a Regional-Downeaster. That's going to be plenty adequate service to Springfield, which doesn't even identify itself east-west with the rest of the state. Enough to give Peter Pan and the other express bus carriers some stiffer competition on the lucrative Boston-Worcester-Hartford run, and enough to make Bradley Airport a decent Logan backup plan. There isn't much of a commuter market there. Springfield goes north-south. Their "state line" is the Palmer-Monson border where the funny accents start.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

It's already a full-blown 800 ft. platform. Franklin Line's never going to have full highs from Endicott to Plimptonville because of that freight clearance route to Readville, and thus will never be able to use the automatic door coaches. Or high platform-only EMU's. They don't gain a single thing by throwing down a passing track and blowing up perfectly up-to-spec infrastructure.

$84M is dirt-ass cheap for all the track work, the layover, double-tracking on the Franklin from Norwood Central to Windsor Gardens, and the baseline station amenities like electronic signs and whatnot. Start going full-rebuild, especially when it's going to do that little extra for accessibility, and this starts getting into gold-plated 3-story headhouse territory like those gaudy money sinks in Littleton and South Acton. $84M x 2 is not so cheap, and not so worth it. This whole plan pretty much hinges on a quick-and-clean bootstrapping onto the freight considerations. What's there does everything a full-time commuter station surrounded by a sea of lots is supposed to do. Let Kraft pony up for the bling if that station is supposed to be a centerpiece.

I wasn't talking about the Franklin Line. I was talking about Foxboro / Gillette Stadium specifically, which does need some kind of freight trackage - but the only thing we'd be 'blowing up' there to drop in a passing track is a whole lot of trees.

I arrived at the $8M~$15M estimate based on what it's apparently going to cost the state to drop in a passing track and two full-highs at Kingston.

so would this take the place of the proposed boston-montreal HSR that they were trying to have go through New Hampshire?

No. Whether or not that's a good thing depends on who you ask - some people are of the opinion that the only HSR to Montreal should be out of ALB - over the B&A from BOS or nothing because it's too expensive and too difficult engineering/politics-wise to go any other way.

I'm of the opinion that the B&A main will never be able to handle the demands of BOS-MTL HSR on top of all the other routes that will use it (BOS-TOR, BOS-CHI, Inland Regional, expanded commuter operations BOS-WOR-SPG-ALB) without destroying half of Newton and Framingham to get uninterrupted 4-tracking over the entire length of the line. Obviously, that's not going to fly.

Now, F-Line has suggested to me in a post I can't find at the moment that the ideal alternative for BOS-MTL service is HSR to Lowell, Stony Brook Branch to Greenfield and Brattleboro and up the former Montrealer ROW that way. I could see that working well.

 

[Equilibria]

And in the "Best Timing of the Year" competition:

http://www.boston.com/businessupdat...triot-place/uwepDJoIDEDRoUckz3URyI/story.html

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

Oh, boston.com comment crew. Never change.

I hope he goes with low income housing since the casino was too good for foxboro. i'm sure Foxboro falls under the 10 percent threshold.

I don't care what they build, you still live in Foxoboro....

i don't think the town should allow any expansion. The already have enough there to keep them happy. The traffic will get worse and more development will bring more crime and attract a lower class of people. Foxboro needs to stand firm and oppose any thing new. The rejection of the casino can set the course. No Wendy's orl Target's. We all know what kind of people shop there. It wil ruin the schools.

 

[Riverside]

No. Whether or not that's a good thing depends on who you ask - some people are of the opinion that the only HSR to Montreal should be out of ALB - over the B&A from BOS or nothing because it's too expensive and too difficult engineering/politics-wise to go any other way.

I'm of the opinion that the B&A main will never be able to handle the demands of BOS-MTL HSR on top of all the other routes that will use it (BOS-TOR, BOS-CHI, Inland Regional, expanded commuter operations BOS-WOR-SPG-ALB) without destroying half of Newton and Framingham to get uninterrupted 4-tracking over the entire length of the line. Obviously, that's not going to fly.

Now, F-Line has suggested to me in a post I can't find at the moment that the ideal alternative for BOS-MTL service is HSR to Lowell, Stony Brook Branch to Greenfield and Brattleboro and up the former Montrealer ROW that way. I could see that working well.

Until I gave it some cynical, political thought, I never understood why the White House proposed BOS-MTL as a high speed corridor over NYP-MTL. The latter makes soooo much more sense to me. Of course, once you realize that BOS-MTL passes through three separate states (including a swing state), things become a little more understandable.

Honestly, I don't think BOS-MTL HSR should be pursued at this point. BOS-ALB HSR, yes. BOS-SPG-NYP, yes. But BOS-MTL? Not buying it.

If I had to buy it, F-Line's idea sounds pretty good, though it's still a rather indirect route, and I can't help but think that HSR monies would be better spent elsewhere on this first go around.

As for overloading the B&A, a couple of ideas:
-since we're crazy here, we can always suppose that HSR becomes so popular/effective that it becomes practical to remove lanes from the MassPike. If you somehow manage to get ride of the whole thing, that's, like, 8 tracks.
-ever so slightly less crazy: kill one lane of the MassPike inside of 128, and convert the middle lane into a peak-travel HOV lane. 2 lanes in each direction + HOV lane. Again, however, this is incumbent on rail being able to take some of those drivers off the road.
-maintain the Pike as is, 6 lanes, 2 tracks and construct a bypass for local rail traffic:
-You could send trains down to Medfield and then up to Needham. Believe it or not, that "only" adds 6-ish miles to your trip. And that track is relatively straight and would have few stations. Given proper upkeep, you might be able to get a decent clip going.
-The best idea, however, might be to connect the B&A either to the Fitchburg Line or the Central Mass Line. Ideally, this would happen near Riverside and Brandeis. The problem, from what I can see, is that that area is a minefield of development, conservation areas and rivers.

Damn. All of those suck.

Really crazy idea. Run BOS-WOR HSR on the Central Mass. Entirely. (Well, maybe going the Waltham Highlands route, or maybe not.) It makes sense. The Central Mass is very straight, and avoids major urban centers. Follow the existing ROW out to Hudson, where it turns SW. Go southwest until it intersects Massachusetts 85 Connector; run parallel to this until 290 and then run in the median until you get to the train tracks parallel to exit 20 in Worcester. Head down to the station and join all the other kids.

*shudders* I hate to think how much that would cost.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

Well, since we're talking INFINITE SPENDING, NO HOLDS BARRED then why not just bury the entire Pike end to end and build 8 tracks on the air rights?

No, wait, even better.

Bury the Pike, build the tracks, then bury the tracks and build air rights on top of THAT so that you have a multi layer transit cake of rails on top of roads with a nice coating of high-density frosting... I mean construction on top.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

The Mass Central RR is being/has been land salted by bike 'advocates'.

 

[Riverside]

Well, since we're talking INFINITE SPENDING, NO HOLDS BARRED then why not just bury the entire Pike end to end and build 8 tracks on the air rights?

No, wait, even better.

Bury the Pike, build the tracks, then bury the tracks and build air rights on top of THAT so that you have a multi layer transit cake of rails on top of roads with a nice coating of high-density frosting... I mean construction on top.

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm, CBS?

I got one better: elevated high speed rail over Route 9 from Worcester to Boston. *evil grin*

The Mass Central RR is being/has been land salted by bike 'advocates'.

Really? I did not know that... In the realm of practical reality, that may actually be not such a bad thing, though. I don't see that ROW ever getting used by transit again.

But aside from the political minefield it would entail traversing, I am curious how unfeasible it would really be to restore rail to the Central Mass for the use of high-speed rail. It does have the benefit of being a straightaway for three-quarters of the distance between 128 and Worcester. And 290 does look like it has a sizable median for most it.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm, CBS?

I got one better: elevated high speed rail over Route 9 from Worcester to Boston. *evil grin*

I'm never not serious about transit cake!

I could actually see an elevated high speed rail corridor, though. I don't think any HSR that gets built - if it ever gets built inside of existing Interstate medians - is going to be anything other than elevated. The rails can't be placed too close to the road, and rather than having to conform to bad turn geometry the elevated ROW could just sail over.

 

[Riverside]

I'm never not serious about transit cake!

I could actually see an elevated high speed rail corridor, though. I don't think any HSR that gets built - if it ever gets built inside of existing Interstate medians - is going to be anything other than elevated. The rails can't be placed too close to the road, and rather than having to conform to bad turn geometry the elevated ROW could just sail over.

Transit cake! Ha! Gonna have to remember that one (and get me some myself).

I was actually planning to go back and edit that post, and change "high speed rail" to "maglev". That would be awesome. Worcester to Boston in, like, 20 minutes. Boston to New York in an hour.

I agree about HSR needing to be elevated if it goes along Interstate highways. And really, I think it should in a lot of places. Local commuter rail, not as much, because it's harder to do suburban stations in the middle of a highway median. But HSR should (in theory) only stop in major urban locations, where that's less of an issue.

Somehow, though, I don't think an elevated train over Route 9 is really gonna fly (no pun intended). There's no median and it does go through old New England downtowns with semi-active commercial areas.

Still wondering about the Mass Central, though.

 

[Matthew]

Viaducting is expensive and questionable when used excessively, in terms of vibration and stability. Maybe a berm would be ok.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

The Mass Central RR is being/has been land salted by bike 'advocates'.

It's a lousy route, and slower than the B&A if restored. It crosses the current/soon-to-be-vacated Vermonter route only 7 miles north of the B&A in Belchertown. And it was single-track through its entire history, and had to get relocated to a more circuitous route when the Wachusett Reservoir claimed the original ROW. Even the '93 commuter rail study was kind of meh because none of the station sites except West Berlin/495 had room for parking. Has a lot of the same characteristics as the Fitchburg Line in Weston, Lincoln, Concord..."rustic".

B&A works as the starter, this-decade service on regular speed diesel. I think the Lowell Line/Stony Brook Branch/Fitchburg Line to Greenfield works better as the high(er)-speed future option. But mostly because the New Hampshire routing is on crack if they think they're reviving the grade crossing-mad Northern Route or grafting a ROW onto I-89. But B&A is literally something that can be running in 5-7 years if the Vermonter gets another batch of stimulus to re-extend to Montreal. It's all track used daily by Amtrak, with the existing Amherst stop. Fluff the pillows to get NECR speed-bumped from 60 to 80 MPH Palmer to Northfield, and get it PTC-compliant. Every other piece of the route--Boston-Palmer for the Inland Regionals, Northfield-Montreal for the Vermonter--gets floated by separate funded/pending projects. Very, very easy one to bootstrap and get running on a risk-managed limited schedule. I would not be surprised at all if this one magically appears on a fast-starts appropriation before decade's end.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

B&A works as the starter, this-decade service on regular speed diesel. I think the Lowell Line/Stony Brook Branch/Fitchburg Line to Greenfield works better as the high(er)-speed future option. But mostly because the New Hampshire routing is on crack if they think they're reviving the grade crossing-mad Northern Route or grafting a ROW onto I-89. But B&A is literally something that can be running in 5-7 years if the Vermonter gets another batch of stimulus to re-extend to Montreal. It's all track used daily by Amtrak, with the existing Amherst stop. Fluff the pillows to get NECR speed-bumped from 60 to 80 MPH Palmer to Northfield, and get it PTC-compliant. Every other piece of the route--Boston-Palmer for the Inland Regionals, Northfield-Montreal for the Vermonter--gets floated by separate funded/pending projects. Very, very easy one to bootstrap and get running on a risk-managed limited schedule. I would not be surprised at all if this one magically appears on a fast-starts appropriation before decade's end.

I'll be perfectly honest, I'd much prefer BOS-TOR magically appearing on a fast-starts appropriation for the B&A instead.

 

[Riverside]

It's a lousy route, and slower than the B&A if restored. It crosses the current/soon-to-be-vacated Vermonter route only 7 miles north of the B&A in Belchertown. And it was single-track through its entire history, and had to get relocated to a more circuitous route when the Wachusett Reservoir claimed the original ROW. Even the '93 commuter rail study was kind of meh because none of the station sites except West Berlin/495 had room for parking. Has a lot of the same characteristics as the Fitchburg Line in Weston, Lincoln, Concord..."rustic".

B&A works as the starter, this-decade service on regular speed diesel. I think the Lowell Line/Stony Brook Branch/Fitchburg Line to Greenfield works better as the high(er)-speed future option. But mostly because the New Hampshire routing is on crack if they think they're reviving the grade crossing-mad Northern Route or grafting a ROW onto I-89. But B&A is literally something that can be running in 5-7 years if the Vermonter gets another batch of stimulus to re-extend to Montreal. It's all track used daily by Amtrak, with the existing Amherst stop. Fluff the pillows to get NECR speed-bumped from 60 to 80 MPH Palmer to Northfield, and get it PTC-compliant. Every other piece of the route--Boston-Palmer for the Inland Regionals, Northfield-Montreal for the Vermonter--gets floated by separate funded/pending projects. Very, very easy one to bootstrap and get running on a risk-managed limited schedule. I would not be surprised at all if this one magically appears on a fast-starts appropriation before decade's end.

I totally agree that the B&A should be the focus of HSR-starter efforts. I was proposing the Mass Central as a later-stage solution to CBS's concerns about overcrowding on the B&A once all of these new services start up.

And as I said, I was only proposing using the ROW between Waltham/128 and Hudson (at which point you'd have to construct a bit of new connecting ROW and then run the trains down 290 to connect to the B&A in Worcester).

As you can see here, this segment is 7 miles of almost totally straight track, a turn, and then 5 miles of even straighter track. It's not as good as the 12 mile run between Attleboro and Mansfield, but it's not too shabby either.

And since this would be an HSR only route, there wouldn't be any stations, since the trains would all the expresses anyway.

As for it being single tracked, I can't think it would be that hard to retrack it doubled, especially if you're not worried about stations. Although I freely admit I could be wrong.

Looking at it closely, the only place that looks really hairy is going through downtown Hudson. You're going right along Main Street there for a bit. You could tunnel it, I suppose; it'd be about 1.6 miles by my estimate. Kinda long.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

I totally agree that the B&A should be the focus of HSR-starter efforts. I was proposing the Mass Central as a later-stage solution to CBS's concerns about overcrowding on the B&A once all of these new services start up.

And as I said, I was only proposing using the ROW between Waltham/128 and Hudson (at which point you'd have to construct a bit of new connecting ROW and then run the trains down 290 to connect to the B&A in Worcester).

As you can see here, this segment is 7 miles of almost totally straight track, a turn, and then 5 miles of even straighter track. It's not as good as the 12 mile run between Attleboro and Mansfield, but it's not too shabby either.

And since this would be an HSR only route, there wouldn't be any stations, since the trains would all the expresses anyway.

As for it being single tracked, I can't think it would be that hard to retrack it doubled, especially if you're not worried about stations. Although I freely admit I could be wrong.

Looking at it closely, the only place that looks really hairy is going through downtown Hudson. You're going right along Main Street there for a bit. You could tunnel it, I suppose; it'd be about 1.6 miles by my estimate. Kinda long.

Yeah, the Mass Central as a pressure relief valve of sorts is not really thrilling me. Sorry.

The section I'm really very concerned about is Worcester - Springfield, which comes after where you'd rejoin the B&A anyway. Between Worcester and Framingham there's plenty of room to 4-track, and Framingham on has enough density of commuter rail stops that 3-tracking and getting creative with some station adjustments should be enough to allow for overtakes of commuter rail by the faster trains.

And, continuing my being perfectly honest, forcing everyone en route to Montreal from Boston to board a westbound train and transfer to MTL HSR at Albany-Rensselaer is really the ideal solution if we can't / decide not to get a dedicated ROW like Lowell - Stony Brook Branch built up to spec.