Crazy Transit Pitches

bigpicture7 said:
Ok, so I am seeing this for the first time since it popped up (Aug 2024) in one of my regular search feeds, despite the fact that it is dated "2020". I think Perkins + Will may have recently posted it or updated it on their portfolio page. Apologies if this has been posted and discussed elsewhere/previously.

I'm posting it in Crazy Land since it seems to be unofficial and not actually committed toward anything. But maybe someone else knows more about what the heck this is? It speaks to West Station, Grand Junction, etc., hence the transit piece.

perkinswill.com

Charles River: A Living Shoreline

Our framework plan reinvigorates landscape systems, thus increasing climate change resiliency, mitigating pollutant discharge, and connecting surrounding communities to the riverfront.
perkinswill.com perkinswill.com

The concepts look gorgeous (and unobtainium : ( )...e.g.:
CharlesRiver_WebImages5-1.jpg

(c) Perkins + Will

^Report therein:
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Here's some more unobtainum.

1725461787404.png

Ped/Bike Underpasses – The Charles

thecharles.org thecharles.org
 
Charlie_mta said:
unsavory characters
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Down by the water? Lovers, muggers, and thieves?

Seriously though, it's frustrating how often this comes up for an explanation why why can't have nice things. "Unsavory characters" is why we don't like building public spaces, there are no public restrooms, and benches are uncomfortable everywhere. Other places seem to try to fix the root problems. We often seem to just give up on building nice public spaces.

There's a similar tunnel under the next bridge upriver, and it's fine. Biking right along SFR is unpleasant. I'd love an underpass at this bridge.
 
ritchiew said:
Down by the water? Lovers, muggers, and thieves?

Seriously though, it's frustrating how often this comes up for an explanation why why can't have nice things. "Unsavory characters" is why we don't like building public spaces, there are no public restrooms, and benches are uncomfortable everywhere. Other places seem to try to fix the root problems. We often seem to just give up on building nice public spaces.

There's a similar tunnel under the next bridge upriver, and it's fine. Biking right along SFR is unpleasant. I'd love an underpass at this bridge.
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You have me convinced. We can't shut down facilities because of fear. The root causes need to be addressed instead.
 
There is also a middle ground - place based Interventions. You can mitigate a lot of those urban safety concerns through relatively simple actions like regular cleaning and good lighting. It's a evolution of the older broken windows theory, but crime prevention through environmental design (CPTED) and situational crime prevention work - there's an older study out of Lowell that's something of a landmark. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2008-13249-002
 
Agree with those above that root causes need to be addressed, and mitigation used in the interim. But as parked cars that obstruct sidewalks/bike lanes should be removed, or parked cars that obstruct vehicular lanes (at least overnight) are removed, the reason isn’t that societally we hate cars. It’s because public ways used and paid for by the many, if obstructed by an individual’s possession, should be clear of that possession.

Obviously, I have a ton more sympathy for those desperate enough to seek shelter outdoors than some inconsiderate driver, but why is relocating a stolen shopping carriage blocking traffic on Storrow the obvious (first) mitigation measure, but not on the bike highway 10’ away when the carriage is under the same cross street?

Not saying its a good solution, or even a good mitigation measure. But the lack of traffic signals on Storrow prove it’s the solution we have chosen if that tent (or at grade intersection) would hinder some driver’s commute to Rt 2.

Just food for thought; especially when most of the day my bike is faster than my car if I’m paralleling the Charles, despite waiting at the traffic signals. We should be able to build, then use what we build without fear. Honestly, beats me what the best way to do that is though.
 
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ritchiew said:
Down by the water? Lovers, muggers, and thieves?

Seriously though, it's frustrating how often this comes up for an explanation why why can't have nice things. "Unsavory characters" is why we don't like building public spaces, there are no public restrooms, and benches are uncomfortable everywhere. Other places seem to try to fix the root problems. We often seem to just give up on building nice public spaces.

There's a similar tunnel under the next bridge upriver, and it's fine. Biking right along SFR is unpleasant. I'd love an underpass at this bridge.
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I was surprised to find a good amount of public restrooms in SF Public Parks. Thought this wasn't achievable in the US (boston + nyc).
 
ritchiew said:
Down by the water? Lovers, muggers, and thieves?

Seriously though, it's frustrating how often this comes up for an explanation why why can't have nice things. "Unsavory characters" is why we don't like building public spaces, there are no public restrooms, and benches are uncomfortable everywhere. Other places seem to try to fix the root problems. We often seem to just give up on building nice public spaces.

There's a similar tunnel under the next bridge upriver, and it's fine. Biking right along SFR is unpleasant. I'd love an underpass at this bridge.
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In theory I agree, but municipalities need to demonstrate the ability to fix/manage the problem at existing facilities first, especially when it seems like many are going backward.
 
737900er said:
In theory I agree, but municipalities need to demonstrate the ability to fix/manage the problem at existing facilities first, especially when it seems like many are going backward.
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I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you thinking of some specific problem spot or incident?
Like I said, there is a nearly identical bike/pedestrian underpass on this exact path, on the very next bridge upriver. I bike through fairly regularly. It hasn't become a homeless encampment with people blocking the right of way. I've never seen muggers lying in wait. It's perfectly nice. We don't have to wait for any kind of societal changes before we can build a nearly identical underpass a half mile away.

But more broadly, I think I totally disagree with your sentiment here. We should absolutely focus on building good public spaces, even if some unsavory characters have infiltrated existing ones. Building nice public spaces bring more people out, and more people out in public makes everyone safer. More people around means more witnesses and more people to intervene, and crime becomes harder. Good public spaces can work on its own to be a form of crime prevention. If we give up on trying to build or fix up public spaces, fewer people will go, which can make those people more vulnerable.
 
ritchiew said:
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you thinking of some specific problem spot or incident?
Like I said, there is a nearly identical bike/pedestrian underpass on this exact path, on the very next bridge upriver. I bike through fairly regularly. It hasn't become a homeless encampment with people blocking the right of way. I've never seen muggers lying in wait. It's perfectly nice. We don't have to wait for any kind of societal changes before we can build a nearly identical underpass a half mile away.

But more broadly, I think I totally disagree with your sentiment here. We should absolutely focus on building good public spaces, even if some unsavory characters have infiltrated existing ones. Building nice public spaces bring more people out, and more people out in public makes everyone safer. More people around means more witnesses and more people to intervene, and crime becomes harder. Good public spaces can work on its own to be a form of crime prevention. If we give up on trying to build or fix up public spaces, fewer people will go, which can make those people more vulnerable.
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You can also make public spaces safer (or at least feel safer) without hostile design. Decent lighting goes a long way.
 
The existing underpass under the Elliot bridge could use some better lighting, but I haven't felt unsafe when traveling through it. I hope any new underpasses would have decent lighting and some other design features to make folks feel safer, like including those police emergency call box/buttons.
 
BOS2BON said:
The existing underpass under the Elliot bridge could use some better lighting, but I haven't felt unsafe when traveling through it. I hope any new underpasses would have decent lighting and some other design features to make folks feel safer, like including those police emergency call box/buttons.
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It might be a little out there, but putting something like a small cafe attached to the underpass would do wonders. I saw some old tunnels on the Siene in Paris that have been converted into Bars/Restaurants, and it guarantees that people are out and about near the area providing oversight for others. It also makes a nice pedestrian focused space.
 
Are there streets around Boston that are wide enough to support elevated rail, and which have the location and orientation that could help provide urban-ring-esque service? I'm thinking either Miami People Mover style, if it's a short distance. Or Vancouver Skytrain style for medium distance.

Also related question, but is there any consensus around what type of service Urban Ring Rail would be? I always assumed it would be either elevated or underground but I've never seen many details about what it might look like.
 
Melnea Cass jumps to mind. And maybe 93 from Widdett to South Bay, depending how you want to route the ring through Southie/Seaport.
 
Any of the streets that had elevated rail in the past would seem candidates.

That being said, there are places where they do double-stack elevated rail which would seem like something to consider in Boston with our narrower streets and air rights.
 
EastCambridgeDreamer said:
Are there streets around Boston that are wide enough to support elevated rail, and which have the location and orientation that could help provide urban-ring-esque service? I'm thinking either Miami People Mover style, if it's a short distance. Or Vancouver Skytrain style for medium distance.

Also related question, but is there any consensus around what type of service Urban Ring Rail would be? I always assumed it would be either elevated or underground but I've never seen many details about what it might look like.
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Someone was saying earlier an automated light metro would be cool. Kind of a green line+. Another idea that I thought was cool was using the same station design several times, kind of digging boxes and building the same thing with minor adjustments.
 
EastCambridgeDreamer said:
Are there streets around Boston that are wide enough to support elevated rail, and which have the location and orientation that could help provide urban-ring-esque service? I'm thinking either Miami People Mover style, if it's a short distance. Or Vancouver Skytrain style for medium distance.

Also related question, but is there any consensus around what type of service Urban Ring Rail would be? I always assumed it would be either elevated or underground but I've never seen many details about what it might look like.
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I'm having trouble finding a link, but I've seen photos of how some systems just use two concrete pylons instead of single pylons, dropping them in planted bump-outs that replace parking spots -- sort of like the old-school steel el-type structures.
 
as02143 said:
Any of the streets that had elevated rail in the past would seem candidates
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Washington St is shockingly narrow in a lot of places, it's astonishing they made it work, same for Main St in Charlestown. Narrow streets really amplify the negative effects of elevated rail, and it should really be avoided in these cases whenever possible, you really need almost highway width to make it reasonably un-intrusive.

So it's not really surprising that Melnea Cass, which was designed as a highway, and I93/90 are really the only possible candidates, and of those I think Melnea Cass is the only one that makes any sense.
 
EastCambridgeDreamer said:
Are there streets around Boston that are wide enough to support elevated rail,
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Revere Beach Parkway is plenty wide and could work as part of a ring (though that's not typically the chosen path).

How wide a street do you think you'd need? Just as a jumping off point, the new Lechmere is on a relatively nice, quiet viaduct. Cambridge Crossing was willing to put up buildings about 15ft from the trains. Lechmere Station itself if about 60ft wide. So very roughly, you might consider rights-of-way more than 90ft wide. Looking past an urban ring, you can find streets that wide. Blue Hill Ave, Warren St, Columbia Road, Fellsway, Broadway (Somerville), Washington where the Orange el used to run (though I agree with @TheRatmeister , a lot of Washington is pretty narrow. The trains through Egleston must have been loud.)
 
EastCambridgeDreamer said:
Are there streets around Boston that are wide enough to support elevated rail … I'm thinking either Miami People Mover style, if it's a short distance …
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Some candidates that come to mind:
  • Logan Airport, connecting the airport terminals, Airport Station (Blue Line), and the rental car center.
  • Between North and South Station, either over:
    • some combo of Purchase St, Cross St, Atlantic Ave, and Surface Rd, ideally steering clear of the actual Greenway footprint for the most part
    • Congress (to either North Washington and Beverly or Merrimack and Causeway)
  • Extending the North-South People Mover past North Station to Sullivan via one of the following:
    • Rutherford Ave (widest)
    • Main St (most centrally located)
    • Bunker Hill St (most underserved currently)
  • Extending the North-South People Mover past South Station to Seaport via:
    • Seaport Blvd
    • Summer St, hitting BCEC on the way, possibly continuing on to City Point
  • Looping the North-South People Mover via Causeway, Staniford (connecting to Charles/MGH), Charles (connecting to Public Garden and Boston Common), Boylston (connecting to Boylston Chinatown Stations), and Essex St.
EastCambridgeDreamer said:
… Or Vancouver Skytrain style for medium distance …
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Many, many candidates that I want to come back to this.
 
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