Design a Better Boston Back Bay Station

[Matthew]

I have definitely ridden one Acela which did not stop anywhere between NYP and PVD. So not everything stops at New London.

 

[Nexis4jersey]

Like ive said before and Amtrak has said , the New England is going to take some time. Whether its the 4 tracked Providence line from Providence to South Station or the New NEC from Providence along US6 to Hartford then along I-84/684 to Port Chester thats a huge undertaking... Its not like the Southern NEC which will just mean 6 tracking from Newark to Philly and 5 tracking Philly to DC....with 4 bypasses in Newark , Philly , Wilmington and Baltimore.....

 

[Nexis4jersey]

This 6 track beast needs to be Extended from at least Newark to Philly to meet the growing demands of the many services that feed into the NEC...and supply Amtrak..


Northeast Corridor - Rahway - New Jersey by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

Grade Separations like this are needed....to allow for MBTA , NJT , SEPTA , MNRR , LIRR and MARC to add and restore various lines into the NEC..without slowing it. A preview of what the New NEC abit 4 tracks will look like in MASS...


Northeast Corridor - Rahway - New Jersey by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

Its a shame they don't use PRR Signals...


DSCN1133 by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

[youtube]GH8nzAfl-rg[/youtube]

 

[Arlington]

I have definitely ridden one Acela which did not stop anywhere between NYP and PVD. So not everything stops at New London.

Matthew has caught a rare F-Line error: its the Regionals that all stop in New London, but the Acelas, while they crawl through, do not stop.

A quick scan of The NEC July Timetable shows about 9 southbound weekday Acelas that are nonstop from PVD to NHV. I can find only 1 Acela (the first of each weekday) that stops in New London.

Back to the topic at hand, the solution at Back Bay would seem not to be anything "on site" but rather the creation of a "Jamaica (Queens)" or "New Carrollton (Maryland)" connecting point further out.

The solution at constrained Back Bay is probably found at today's under utilized (and non-densified) RTE 128 station.

Extending Orange and Indigo to a meeting point at Readville would be a great start. Extending one or both to RTE 128 (and a real Amtrak connection) even better--like New Carrollton. And electrifying Indigo best of all.

All would make it possible to re-balance the whole system between RTE 128 and South Station.

 

[Nexis4jersey]

Route 128 is going to be dropped by Amtrak once the New NEC is fully upgraded , so extending the Orange line would be great.

 

[Arlington]

Route 128 is going to be dropped by Amtrak once the New NEC is fully upgraded , so extending the Orange line would be great.

I think it is just that 220mph super express won't stop there. From what I've seen they plan keep service pretty much everywhere and blend the new and old systems

But if you like a RTE-128-MBTA-Orange-Indigo superstation, why is there no Auburndale-Riverside-128/I-90 superstation that would similarly be a natural multimodal point that would be an "outer" connecting point that would make Back Bay work better? I nominate the turnpike-owned land next to Liberty Mutual.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

But if you like a RTE-128-MBTA-Orange-Indigo superstation, why is there no Auburndale-Riverside-128/I-90 superstation that would similarly be a natural multimodal point that would be an "outer" connecting point that would make Back Bay work better? I nominate the turnpike-owned land next to Liberty Mutual.

I suggested that in the A-Line Reactivation thread, actually.

F-Line informed me that there wasn't enough room for a Route 128-style superstation there - we can fit a station in, but it'd be a park and ride with no place to park.

 

[HenryAlan]

True. But let's start by putting service where people are.

Not that I disagree, but there is a flaw in this idea, which is that it spends money to provide transportation to people who already have transpiration. Those people are currently commuting/shopping/etc. by other means. While it may be a good idea to move them on to trains, it doesn't stimulate new economic activity, which TOD in theory should. At any rate, it's much easier to sell transit as an economic investment that will bring a return in generating new construction, new jobs, etc. Bringing it to already built out places doesn't have that element.

 

[HenryAlan]

I have definitely ridden one Acela which did not stop anywhere between NYP and PVD. So not everything stops at New London.

I've never stopped anywhere in CT except New Haven when riding Acela. My experience has consistently been BOS --> BBY -->RTE --> PVD --> STM --> NYP

 

[Nexis4jersey]

I've never stopped anywhere in CT except New Haven when riding Acela. My experience has consistently been BOS --> BBY -->RTE --> PVD --> STM --> NYP

All Acelas stop at New Haven and Stamford , some select stop in New London and New Rochelle...like during events or other things.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Extending Orange and Indigo to a meeting point at Readville would be a great start. Extending one or both to RTE 128 (and a real Amtrak connection) even better--like New Carrollton. And electrifying Indigo best of all.

All would make it possible to re-balance the whole system between RTE 128 and South Station.

Only 2 things they have to do to get Fairmount extended to 128:
-- Do the Readville-Canton Jct. tri-tracking (128's outbound platform is already designed as an island for that third track). I would not be surprised if there's a small stimulus grant for that in the next year or two because it's cheap, fast, and does not require Track 3 to be wired up initially (it's for grade separation of CR from intercity). South of the station old Track 3 already exists for 1/2 mile as a repurposed freight turnout, so a portion of the construction would be straight rehab instead of all-new.
-- Reconfigure the Fairmount Line Readville platform so it's a 2-track island shifted about 200 ft. north of the current platform, before the switch: http://goo.gl/maps/9gyJE. That way 2 trains can occupy it, and you can mix and match trains continuing on the NEC vs. trains using the Franklin (right now that platform's only accessible from the Franklin). Only reason they haven't done this already is because current Readville is ADA-accessible, and wasn't as high a priority as getting non-ADA dumps Morton St. and Uphams Corner upgraded. They want to do this when they can find the spare change. They need a 2-track platform to achieve the envisioned service levels non-awkwardly.

That's it. When service levels start to make 128 more congested, notice all that extra space on the easterly side and the extra underpass berth under 128: http://goo.gl/maps/QQypS. That's room for a future 2-track turnout that Fairmount trains can use for themselves. At full build the station could support a total of 5 tracks (2 island platforms + 1 side), with that expansion turnout merging quickly back onto the main on either side.

No way you're getting an Orange Line extension down there. Amtrak's bringing back NEC Track 4 from Forest Hills to Readville so Franklin trains grade separate at the same spot Needham trains do. The Orange Line would've reduced it all to 2 tracks, which is a total nonstarter. Also, check the ridership projections in that OL extension option vs. the Rozzie-West Roxbury-128/Needham option...not even close. The Mt. Hope area is too much of a transit 'tweener'; Rozzie Sq. absolutely blows it out of the water on ridership and bus connections.

But even if you consider rapid transit on/along the Fairmount Line instead, there's no way you're getting >4 side-by-side tracks through these wetlands. NEC Track 3 restoration is the single biggest congestion mitigator Amtrak has identified north of Providence. And they're probably going to need a continuous Track 4 to Canton Jct. as well in another 25 years, esp. if the Inland NEC goes via Providence instead of Worcester and doubles up the high-speed service on those MA miles. No way you're fitting 2 rapid transit tracks there and kneecapping NEC capacity...that's suicidal. I think dense Fairmount short-turns are the best solution.

Note: doesn't mean you can't go TO Readville with rapid transit. I've mentioned in other threads that all it takes is 1/2 mile of River St. subway or 2000 ft. of deep-bore under residential property lines to get the Red Line from Mattapan station to the portion of the Fairmount ROW that used to be 4-track from all the old freight sidings. Neither all that cheap nor Big Dig-level expensive, but you could go to Readville and then turn west to Dedham Ctr. on an erstwhile Ashmont train without touching a single track's worth of NEC or Fairmount capacity. Not saying it comes close to cracking the Top 5 most needed rapid transit extensions (you do, of course, have to get the RL trains replacing the trolleys first), but it's definitely engineering-feasible.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

Note: doesn't mean you can't go TO Readville with rapid transit. I've mentioned in other threads that all it takes is 1/2 mile of River St. subway or 2000 ft. of deep-bore under residential property lines to get the Red Line from Mattapan station to the portion of the Fairmount ROW that used to be 4-track from all the old freight sidings. Neither all that cheap nor Big Dig-level expensive, but you could go to Readville and then turn west to Dedham Ctr. on an erstwhile Ashmont train without touching a single track's worth of NEC or Fairmount capacity. Not saying it comes close to cracking the Top 5 most needed rapid transit extensions (you do, of course, have to get the RL trains replacing the trolleys first), but it's definitely engineering-feasible.

No way you're ever getting Red Line stock on that trolley unless you reroute it away from that cemetery first.

It looks like a full mile between Ashmont and Milton down Dorchester Avenue, so that's probably out. Any idea if it's feasible to tunnel under Adams Street to Milton from Cedar Grove?

 

[Nexis4jersey]

so ive looked at the Providence line and 4 tracking it shouldn't be that hard. Most of the line used to be 4 tracks. The Hard sections would be near Canton JCT and the Canton Viaduct which need to be 4 tracked. You would need to take some homes in Canton to build a New Viaduct and Grade Separated Interchange to permit smooth operations along with 4 tracks. Building a whole new Route 128 Station will be needed. With 2 thru tracks for Next Gen HSR and 2 side tracks for Commuter and Amtrak Regional. Grade Separations are also needed in Pawtucket for future Woonsocket/Worcester line service and Attleboro for Future Amtrak Cape Cod Service and Commuter Rail service. At Readville Amtrak wants a flyover to allow inbound Franklin service to cross over all tracks without interrupting High Speed Services. Amtrak is also looking into using the Fairmount line ive learned. They want all Providence and Worcester line stations high level platformed by 2030.

Lines that Amtrak eventually wants to Electrify include , Knowledge Corridor / Vermonter , Downeaster , Empire Service up to Albany with new lines ; Cross England Service to Albany , Cape Cod line , Concord Service , Downstate Corridor , Lackawanna line , Lehigh line , Northwest Service and Virginia Network. So the whole Northeastern Network will be Electric and carry at least 350,000 daily passengers and 95% of the travel share by 2040.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

so ive looked at the Providence line and 4 tracking it shouldn't be that hard. Most of the line used to be 4 tracks. The Hard sections would be near Canton JCT and the Canton Viaduct which need to be 4 tracked. You would need to take some homes in Canton to build a New Viaduct and Grade Separated Interchange to permit smooth operations along with 4 tracks. Building a whole new Route 128 Station will be needed. With 2 thru tracks for Next Gen HSR and 2 side tracks for Commuter and Amtrak Regional. Grade Separations are also needed in Pawtucket for future Woonsocket/Worcester line service and Attleboro for Future Amtrak Cape Cod Service and Commuter Rail service. At Readville Amtrak wants a flyover to allow inbound Franklin service to cross over all tracks without interrupting High Speed Services. Amtrak is also looking into using the Fairmount line ive learned. They want all Providence and Worcester line stations high level platformed by 2030.

Lines that Amtrak eventually wants to Electrify include , Knowledge Corridor / Vermonter , Downeaster , Empire Service up to Albany with new lines ; Cross England Service to Albany , Cape Cod line , Concord Service , Downstate Corridor , Lackawanna line , Lehigh line , Northwest Service and Virginia Network. So the whole Northeastern Network will be Electric and carry at least 350,000 daily passengers and 95% of the travel share by 2040.

The Viaduct's on the Historic Register (1835!). No way they can do anything to it. But it's a fairly negligible traffic pinch point given that the ROW returns to full width immediately after and Stoughton trains have already split off.

Also, Franklin flyover? We have one of those. It's called the Fairmount Line. Nobody should fund the T that pony. Because it's not enshrined in the state constitution that a commuter in Forge Park MUST get a one-seat ride to Back Bay, or the Revolution was fought in vain. I want to know if the T official who told Amtrak that one was able to keep a straight face while describing this superfluous second Franklin flyover.


I really think Inland HSR can't get all rammed through Providence. Tri-tracking all of MA brings it back from at-or-above capacity to within capacity for 2030. And only *barely* under between Readville and Back Bay, which is why sooner or later they're going to have to stop kicking the can on whither rapid transit for the Needham Line and whither isolating all thru service on Franklin + any of its future branches to Fairmount. Commuter rail traffic growth will quickly start to re-crest it, and then...bang...here come the superduperduper HSR trains. Are we going to rip up the SW Corridor tunnel to make it 5...6 RR tracks + 2 Orange? I have a better idea...why not just build a 6-lane highway on one tunnel level and a 7-track railroad on another level. The cut will be wide enough for it. We can call it...I-95.


I really think they have to fork that eastern CT jog up to Worcester first as a relief valve that taps the B&A's more generous capacity growth. And then maybe make a second move after that to reopen the Hartford-Providence connection (itself a pretty choice regional route) and make it a choose-your-adventure type deal. But it all starts breaking down under congestion if everything must--must!--ram through Providence. It immediately undoes all the hard-won Providence Line capacity gains it's going to take us till 2025 to pay for just for existing NEC services. THINK...NEC is 3 tracks at BB, B&A is 2 tracks. 3 + 2 = 5. Or 5+ because the B&A can get tri-tracked anywhere west of 128 and probably much of the length along the Pike extension up to the Yawkey area with some artful reconfiguring. They may want to start applying Occam's Razor to figuring out how to build this. Go where the HSR-supportable capacity is first, them figure out later every little alt routing to make everywhere accessible from everywhere and every politician in every district well-fed.

 

[Nexis4jersey]

Why isn't the Needham line an Orange or Green line Extension?

 

[choo]

Why isn't the Needham line an Orange or Green line Extension?

Ya, I just looked at the map and terrain, it would seem relatively easy to make the OL extend to needham. It's mostly grade separated from what i can tell,and can be two tracked for rapid transit.

One question i can't tell. Does the Fairmount line (future indigo) go all the way to 128 amtrak? it comes close. If you don't extend the orange line from forest hills to 128 at this point, does it make more sense (financial and engineering ease) to make the indigo (relatively) rapid transit from 128 to SS?

 

[HenryAlan]

Why isn't the Needham line an Orange or Green line Extension?

It was supposed to be an OL extension to West Roxbury, then turn south to the Dedham mall. Needham proper was supposed to get a GL branch off of the D-Line around Elliot. But then Needham NIMBYs and changing funding priorities killed the plan. The abandoned ROW to Dedham has been infringed upon, so that's probably never going to happen, but the rest of the plan can and should. Ridership in West Roxbury and Roslindale (when you consider commuter rail plus the dozen bus lines) is easily at rapid transit levels now. I'm less clear on how much Needham needs the Green Line, but I don't think you can keep the commuter rail line once the ROW is used for rapid transit from Forest Hills to West Roxbury.

The Orange Line portion, btw, would be incredibly easy. As choo notes, the ROW is wide enough, it's 100% grade separated, and the existing stations only need upgrading, which means no land takings at all to make this happen.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

Needham NIMBYs? Needham wanted the Green Line. They STILL vote in favor of it, all these years later. Dedham (and perhaps West Roxbury, too?) didn't want the Orange Line.

 

[HenryAlan]

Needham NIMBYs? Needham wanted the Green Line. They STILL vote in favor of it, all these years later. Dedham (and perhaps West Roxbury, too?) didn't want the Orange Line.

There may well have been West Roxbury and Dedham NIMBYs too, I haven't heard much about that. But there was definitely a major drive against the Green Line in Needham at that time. Views can change over the years, but during the window of opportunity, people in Needham wanted commuter rail, not light rail. There is a thread about this at Railroad.net, where a guy talks about how his grandfather (who was a Selectman) was the driving force behind killing the Needham Green Line. As I said in my previous post, I don't think the project works without both OL and GL extensions. Kill one, and the other dies by necessity.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

It was supposed to be an OL extension to West Roxbury, then turn south to the Dedham mall. Needham proper was supposed to get a GL branch off of the D-Line around Elliot. But then Needham NIMBYs and changing funding priorities killed the plan. The abandoned ROW to Dedham has been infringed upon, so that's probably never going to happen, but the rest of the plan can and should. Ridership in West Roxbury and Roslindale (when you consider commuter rail plus the dozen bus lines) is easily at rapid transit levels now. I'm less clear on how much Needham needs the Green Line, but I don't think you can keep the commuter rail line once the ROW is used for rapid transit from Forest Hills to West Roxbury.

The Orange Line portion, btw, would be incredibly easy. As choo notes, the ROW is wide enough, it's 100% grade separated, and the existing stations only need upgrading, which means no land takings at all to make this happen.

Yeah, most of the places along those route(s) with exception of Dedham (look at the lack of bus coverage in that town...they pretty much want to be walled off from the world) were in support of the extensions. Orange to Rozzie and West Roxbury was supposed to be one of the big "hooks" to help compensate for losing the El. The T whittled it back to FH and washed its hands...Menino won't acknowledge that Rozzie and W. Rox exist...that explains the state of affairs for the last 25 years. Lack of political will. Nobody's even been pushing for Rozzie where all the buses go, which is the furthest you can bring the OL without cannibalizing the commuter rail. Yes, it would be easy to do. Double-track, raise the existing platforms to full-highs (can be done for commuter rail first since they're roughly same height) and add matching inbound side platforms, re-wire the signals so they feed Orange ATO system instead of RR signals (Needham doesn't have cab signals, but it is fed with "modern" track circuits), put back the 2nd-track bridge decks that were ripped out in the 80's, and plonk an electrical substation somewhere along the extension to upgrade the power feed. They don't even have to replace the rails...just do a once-over with the grinder so it's set to rapid transit wheel profile.

The only cost bloat here is that the T will undoubtedly design diamond-encrusted 3-story glass palaces with 800-space parking garages and virtually unlimited mission creep potential.


Needham had to shift gears in the 80's to prevent the Needham Line from being Arborwayed. It was shut down from 1979-1987 for SW Corridor construction, and it reopened late because they didn't begin rehabbing the line until there was less than a year to go and were dropping passive-aggressive hints of abandoning it. Needham had to lawyer up and threaten suit. They had to put up with pathetic headways and no weekend service for the first decade service resumed, and of course they're getting shafted again with the July 1 cutbacks. So much of the energy for last 30 years in Needham has been spent on stop-loss advocacy with the existing service. They still have Green Line community meetings about every 18 months. The support hasn't wavered one bit. It just keeps falling further and further down the priority list the more the T overleverages itself in the outer 'burbs and lets deferred maintenance and bureaucratic dysfunction chew up the existing lines.

If they ever get around to building it--and they would have to build both Green and Orange halves if the Needham Line were to go because Needham would sue for transit loss--it's one of the cheapest of all. Splits off the D past Newton Center. Would require CBTC signaling on the subway to handle the headways, and would be recommended to build the D-to-E connecting trackage for rush hour alt routings, but if the signaling were upped from 19th to 21st century Green can absolutely handle the extra branch. The 128 overpass is being torn-down/rebuilt as a 2-tracker for the widening project. Funded, designed, construction happens next year...not gonna be canceled because the trail's coming in, because it's a MassHighway not T project. Upper Falls has a historic station building and surviving platform that fits in with the other D stations. The Needham Ctr. and Needham Heights low platforms can take trolleys without modification...just rip out the mini-highs and add opposite northbound platforms. There's no room for additional parking to begin with, so they physically can't blow a wad overbuilding those 2 existing stations or the Upper Falls one. Double-track and re-grind the rails on existing CR, replace the Charles River bridge and all track on the disused portion, re-time the existing crossing gates so they go up and down faster for trolley frequencies (otherwise they're perfectly adequate), bulk up the D line power feed, and build a park-and-ride stop at TV Place/128. Trail is no big loss because the parallel industrial spur a few blocks away is also being trailed, and also crosses the Charles and reaches Kendrick St. Between the end of that spur at Needham St. and the D line at Route 9 the ROW is wide enough for rail-with-trail. The towns have got this sorted so one doesn't compromise the other.

Only place the T can gorge itself on eye candy expense is the 128 stop, Needham Junction (would need a relocated platform, and there is room for parking), and if they put both hands around neck with some arbitrary requirement for no grade crossings (unnecessary here, and B line riders' heads might explode at hearing that).


The Dedham ROW from West Roxbury is gone. In 2008 the T brokered sales and easements so developers could build houses on top of the ROW on Belle Ave. It was perfectly preserved until they pulled that passive-aggressive move. So you're only getting to Dedham from Readville-west, which is a better-buffered and totally grade-separated ROW. I would support replacing the Fairmount/Franklin flyover bridge when it's due for replacement with a realigned span that allows for direct Fairmount access to the Dedham branch. Plunk single-track stations at East Dedham and Dedham Ctr./Mall, christen it a Fairmount shuttle branchline. Unfortunately Dedham is a weird, weird little transit hole that doesn't even want to participate in the bus system.