Did Boston Miss out???

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mass88

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I don't know if any of you have ever seen this, but in cities Like Chicago and Los Angeles, on certain highways, there are rapid trasit lines places in between the lanes. A great example is the Kennedy Expressway in Chicago has the blue line running in the middle. Atlanta has a rediculous plan to do the same thing, they intend to place the lines inbetween a 22 lane highway.

I am wondering, did Boston miss out on a chance to create highways that were able to accomodate this and thus, lose out on a chance to extend the T system to places a little bit further outside the city?
Having rapid transit between the highway would make it a lot easier to expand the service.
 
Yes, a lot of buildings were torn down for the never-built Southwest Expressway. The current Orange Line from Ruggles to Forest Hills was eventually built in its place by itself, rather than alongside this expressway.
 
Is Boston really missing out on not having an expressway in that area? I'm not sure, but I would have to guess it's probably a good thing that there's not another major highway cutting through the city.
 
Which lines would you extend along which highways? I like the idea of extending transit in highway medians to get to a large destination (like O'Hare in your Blue Line example), but it doesn't work very well at all for intermediate stations. I stayed at a hotel by the Cumberland stop in Chicago, and navigating the on/off ramps of the highway on the walk to the station was very unpleasant.

This concept might work best for long distance train travel (relocating Boston-New York Acela service to I-90/I-84/I-91 for example).

Not building the highway was a good thing for the southwest expressway neighborhoods, but unfortunately a lot of damage was done there in preparation for it that will probably take decades to reverse.
 
We should all be very glad that most of the expressways proposed in the 1960s were not built. The few that were, such as I-93 in Medford and Somerville, did huge damage to the urban fabric.
 
Two points:

I don't think rail along our highways would necessarily work that well, mainly because stations generally need to be in commercial and housing centers, not near off ramps. However, I think HOV/bus lanes on I-90 and I-93 would be terrific, as they would allow commuters using mass transit, for example the many express buses and private coaches that come from the outer suburbs, to get an extra edge over driving.

The T was actually supposed to go out much further than it does, for example the Orange Line past Forest Hills and the Red Line past Alewife. I'm pretty sure there were proposals to extend both lines out to 128. However, when this was proposed, those communities that would be affected rejected the plan. They're probably kicking themselves now...
 
The rail stations we now have along I-90 (Auburndale, Newtonville, and West Newton) are probably the least inviting stations we have in the entire commuter rail system.
 
cden4 said:
However, when this was proposed, those communities that would be affected rejected the plan. They're probably kicking themselves now...
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I'm almost positive there is a large segment of the population of West Roxbury who would still be very much opposed to an Orange Line stop there.

It's still 1956 there.
 
cden4 said:
Two points:

I don't think rail along our highways would necessarily work that well, mainly because stations generally need to be in commercial and housing centers, not near off ramps. However, I think HOV/bus lanes on I-90 and I-93 would be terrific, as they would allow commuters using mass transit, for example the many express buses and private coaches that come from the outer suburbs, to get an extra edge over driving.

The T was actually supposed to go out much further than it does, for example the Orange Line past Forest Hills and the Red Line past Alewife. I'm pretty sure there were proposals to extend both lines out to 128. However, when this was proposed, those communities that would be affected rejected the plan. They're probably kicking themselves now...
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I think the Pike could definitely use a HOV lane similar to that used on 93. The outbound Pike is relatively empty in the morning as is the inbound in the evening. My fear in making the Pike even more efficient, though, is that it would encourage more drivers and fewer T users.

As far as expanding the T, ugh. I mean, have you ever ridden the green line all the way from Riverside?? I think expanding the length of the T lines should be done... eventually, and it should not be done at the expense of improving the system within the city core. We've all talked about the urban ring -- I think getting that done should be the T's #1 expansion priority. Backing up subway traffic all the way out beyond Alewife or Forest Hills won't make the system any better in the near or long term, IMO.
 
A lot of it is perception too. When my father worked in various places in Newton we used to take the T from riverside and other fringe stops. It's a painfully long ride and it gets to the point where you just want the drive to say screw it and skip the inner-suburban stops and just continue on to town. That being said, in New York, a half hour or 45 minute commute by subway is not uncommon at all and as much as people may not like it, they deal because that's the nature of it.

The urban ring is a must to ease pressure on some of the existing lines (particularly the green line). It would also be nice to see an express track (especially on the green line from the west of town and the red to the south), but the addition of that infrastructure would be super costly and i don't see the money being spent on that anytime soon.
 
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The ride from Riverside downtown is a good illustration of the T's conflicting dual purposes. On the one hand, it serves suburban commuters who park and ride from 128. On the other, it's a functioning transportation network within Boston and the inner suburbs for people who don't drive locally. Speeding the former comes at the detriment of the latter; improving access to the latter is a hindrance to the former.

I wonder if this would be so much of a problem if the commuter rail system weren't so unattractive/inadequate. It seems odd that so many people ride the rinky-dink trains for hours to get to Boston from Riverside, when they could (with timing) have a much more quick and comfortable ride on the commuter rail from, say, Auburndale. The T hasn't really helped by encouraging parking at Riverside vs. Auburndale.

Of course, Boston could try to implement express trains or a parallel network of low-frequency-stop S-Bahn sort of trains, but this is a pipe dream when even the Medford Green Line extension will take over a decade.
 
There's also a big fare difference, more evident since the last fare change.

Green Line round trip between Boston and Riverside is now $3.40 (used to be $4.25)

Commuter Rail round trip between Boston and Auburndale is now $9.50 (used to be $7)
 
I actually think the Express Bus system the T has going has done great things for getting commuters from the suburbs into the city where the Commuter Rail is not an attractive option. The 502 and 504 from Watertown Yard to Copley and Downtown respectively are terrific. It's a 20-25 minute ride when traffic is moving. Now if they had a bus-only lane on the Pike it would be that fast during rush hour.

There are similar express buses from Brighton, Riverside, and Waltham Center, and as far as I know, they are pretty popular as well.
 
Green Line round trip between Boston and Riverside is now $3.40 (used to be $4.25)

Commuter Rail round trip between Boston and Auburndale is now $9.50 (used to be $7)
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More evidence the T is creating the wrong incentives.
 
And to compare fares on those too:

Inner Express bus (all except 500 and 505): round trip is $5.60 (was $4.40)
Outer Express bus (500 and 505): round trip is $8 (was $6.90)
 
czsz said:
More evidence the T is creating the wrong incentives.
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The issue of extending the Blue Line to Lynn is another example of wrong incentives. The combined frequency of the Marblehead and Salem bus routes that pass through downtown Lynn bound for downtown Boston and the commuter rail should negate the need for a Blue Line extension. There are two problems with the current service, however--the commuter rail fare is higher than the subway fare would be, and the bus schedules are not designed to provide even headways to downtown Lynn (nor are those routes instructed to hold at Lynn to meet the schedule if they're running early). These two easy fixes would give Lynn riders very good service to downtown without the big investment of a Blue Line extension.
 
In terms of extending the individual lines, I think you have to think about it in terms of diminishing returns in that the father you extend the line, the fewer benefits you'll add. The longer the line, the more problems you have with dispatching, bunching, crowding, and wait time. The shorter the line, the easier it is to control for these problems. But the shorter the line, the fewer the people you'll serve. What I'm getting at is, at a certain point of extension, you'll reach a point were you aren't serving that many more people, and your problems are become exponentially worse. The extension to Lynn and possibly Salem I think is an example of where it might be worth it because you'd open up service to a large population area, the distance isn't that great, and the people you're already serving would probably like to go there as well. I know I would; Salem and Lynn are neat! Extending the Orange Line to Needham is slightly different issue in that fewer people live in that area and not many people have a reason to travel out there. Sure the distance isn't that long, but you're still extending the line, and at what cost? I think that's a case were the CC is a better fit in terms of the type of service needed.
 
underground said:
In terms of extending the individual lines, I think you have to think about it in terms of diminishing returns in that the father you extend the line, the fewer benefits you'll add...
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Agreed. Any of those miles of rail that would be needed to reach out to towns like Lynn or Needham or Belmont would be much better spent connecting the spokes of the T's wheel in town.
 
The other things to consider are density, competing service and cost.

Density: there aren't many opportunities to extend lines into areas where there is still sufficient density to support high frequency rapid transit service. You can bring in riders by extensions to large 128 park and ride facilities, but there is very little ridership from this market outside of peak commuting hours (so CR is probably the better way to serve it)

Competing Service: where density does exist (Lynn/Salem, albeit after a several mile stretch of low density, industrial, or natural areas beyond Wonderland) there is already CR service that would make the trip to downtown in less time (at least 10 minutes faster from Lynn, and at least 15 minutes faster from Salem). This will reduce the benefits of the Blue Line extension somewhat.

Cost: it costs the T $$ to run empty trains, which is what you'll have with extensions on any of the other lines outside of peak commuting hours (see Red Line between Quincy Center and Braintree midday). Orange Line trains would be deserted south of Forest Hills if you extend to 128, likewise on the north side.
 
I don't necessarily agree. If the Red Line were extended to Arlington Center or even Arlington Heights, and the Orange Line to Roslindale Village or even West Roxbury, you'd still be serving high-density areas that would generate lots of passengers.
 
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