Downtown Crossing/Financial District | Discussion

[chumbolly]

More than anything, DTX needs to become a business improvement district with it's own cleaning crews and security. The BID should extend all the way down Summer to South Station. As I recall the Boston Police Department opposes the creation of a BID, and has shot down the idea several times.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

Why did they oppose it? I think BIDs are great. They have done wonders in New York.

 

[Beton Brut]

Why did they oppose it?

My guess is loss of lucrative police details. This motivation is hidden beneath concern about handing public safety over to rent-a-cops.

 

[Ron Newman]

One potential issue with BIDs is whether they privatize public space, to the extent that leafleters and political demonstrators are harassed or banished. How has this played out in NYC?

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

I deal with leafleters everywhere, BID or not. And cop harass protesters everywhere. But I don't see rent-a-cops patrolling the streets so I'm not sure why they would be afraid of that.

 

[chumbolly]

Here's the the Boston Business Journal had to say about it 3 years ago:

Business improvement district proponents have had a long struggle. The idea was first pursued in 1997, at the suggestion of Menino. The coalition of downtown property owners supporting the initiative put together studies and drafted legislation, which passed the Boston City Council. But their efforts hit the first of many snags over a requirement that the Legislature approve the plan because it made a change to state BID law. Massachusetts law allows property owners to opt out of paying for BID services, but the Downtown Crossing BID group insisted that all property owners contribute to the BID's upkeep.

By exposing the BID to the Legislature, proponents put it in the path of the powerful Boston Police Patrolmen's Association, which held up the legislation in the late 1990s over worries that their members would be replaced by private security patrols.

When BID backers and Menino allayed those fears with promises patrol units would be maintained, the legislation was held up by the latest concern -- that large property owners would force their will on smaller ones. That's because a majority vote by property owners accounting for 75 percent of the area's property value would put the BID into effect.

http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/2004/05/10/newscolumn1.html

 

[Beton Brut]

But I don't see rent-a-cops patrolling the streets so I'm not sure why they would be afraid of that.

I think that's part of the point. Some condos and co-ops in NYC have plain-clothes/undercover security (some are armed) and surveillance systems around their entrances and contiguous plazas. The developers of projects like what we're seeing at Filene's and on Province Street may want something similar.

I understand Ron's concern about privatizing of public space and its impact on free access to public places and freedom of expression, but I can also imagine the array of concerns that could be voiced by residents, hotel guests, office workers, and business owners. Anyone know the City Council's current position on this?

For my money I wouldn't oppose DTX becoming a BID -- as long as its stewards could ensure a clean, safe, consumer-friendly environment at all hours, I'm not gonna worry too much if PETA can't toss red paint on some elderly woman's fur coat.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

I can see how people would be wary of privatized police but we have to realize that when people no longer live in places where they can take the time to watch people (Jane Jacobs "eye's on the street") then if they want to be safe, rent-a-cops are the next best thing.

 

[Beton Brut]

I can see how people would be wary of privatized police but we have to realize that when people no longer live in places where they can take the time to watch people (Jane Jacobs "eye's on the street") then if they want to be safe, rent-a-cops are the next best thing.

Good points, Van. Consider that the residential and hotel component of the Filene's project and Province Street (not to mention Millennium a few blocks away) all bring residents downtown, but I don't think any of 'em will be signing up for the local crime-watch. These people will pay a premium for (the perception/appearance of) safety.

Real safety (in any neighborhood) is the result of key stakeholders (business owners, residents, elected officials, and civil servants) working together. A lot of people seem to forget that democracy requires you to cook, not to use a microwave.

The law-enforcement community has a point about the "credentialing" of any supplemental patrols that may appear in DTX in the future; these groups should be able to work together, as they have a common purpose.

And as Ron's pointed out, people should be able to gather and carry out their business, even if it's just spreading a message. But the leafleters and canvassers can be part of a larger litter problem, so their activities should be regulated. And there's a fine line between a protest and a public nuisance.

Someone a lot smarter than me needs to triage these issues and address them. When I was a kid (I'm in my late 30's), both of my grandmothers walked Washington Street after dark -- they were in their 80's. My mom feels sketched out there at high noon. She'd rather drive to a mall. That's a shame.

 

[czsz]

How is Downtown Crossing a more hostile-feeling environment than Newbury Street, where heiresses routinely flash icy stares at passersby from behind their Prada sunglasses while sipping iced mochas at the Armani Cafe? The crowds of Roxbury teenagers standing around Washington St. joking among themselves seem comparatively benign. The couple anecdotes thrown around in this thread of purse-snatching attempts - common in any busy shopping district, worldwide - haven't altered this perception.

Whenever I bring people from outside Boston to the district, they're astounded to find a part of the city that embodies its diversity - a relative rarity. It's unfortunate that so many find it seemingly threatening.

 

[JimboJones]

Wrong

The only ones bringing race into this are those who are defending DTX for what it is, today.

It is possible to be against the current state of affairs without considering the race of the people who populate the area.

When I was growing up, in a middle-class to upper middle-class town on the North Shore, there were groups of kids who would gather after dark in an empty lot, near the center of town.

This made everyone else uncomfortable.

Teenagers make people uncomfortable. They are loud and often rowdy. That's what 16-year olds do.

People's complaints have little to do with the color of their skin.

For example, I'm going to guess that kids hanging out on Revere Beach are often railed against by local business people. Those kids, I assume, are white.

Now, the argument can be made that everyone should just accept the behavior of teenagers, but that's not the conversation we're currently having.

 

[kz1000ps]

Whenever I bring people from outside Boston to the district, they're astounded to find a part of the city that embodies its diversity - a relative rarity.

Yup. A friend who lived in Philadelphia for five years was out last week. We walked from the Common down Winter to lower Summer St, and he was surprised by the mixture and heavy traffic of DTX, saying Philly had next to nothing like it.

 

[czsz]

I don't quite see the corollary between the kids in DTCrossing and those who hang out on suburban parking lots. DTCrossing is a bustling neighborhood with a wide variety of pedestrians; the teens who hang out there don't have hegemony like they would in a vacant slice of suburbia.

Defending DTCrossing for what it is? Why, yes, so long as the alternatives I hear advocated almost always involve making the district "cleaner" and more "upscale" - attributes that would diminish its uniqueness in more than one respect. The one thing I'd like to see changed about the neighborhood is the increasing amount of vacant space, but there's no reason the storefronts there can't support more retail that isn't of the Back Bay variety.

 

[Beton Brut]

Re: Wrong

The only ones bringing race into this are those who are defending DTX for what it is, today.

It is possible to be against the current state of affairs without considering the race of the people who populate the area?

That's certainly part the conversation I'm hoping to have in this thread. My opinions about DTX are not race-based. As I've said before, there are troublemakers of every stripe that cruise the area looking to start something, or roll someone. And it isn't always shiftless or truant teenagers. There are shifty types of all ages, some homeless, some intoxicated, some looking for an easy grab-'n-go.

The couple anecdotes thrown around in this thread of purse-snatching attempts - common in any busy shopping district, worldwide - haven't altered this perception.

I understand this is the city, and there are always going to be a fresh supply of undesirables, but as a society, it's unwise to shrug and say "They're just kids," or "They're down on their luck." Tolerating bad behavior amplifies it. It's time for someone to turn the volume down.

Whenever I bring people from outside Boston to the district, they're astounded to find a part of the city that embodies its diversity - a relative rarity.

The same things are apparent in Roslindale Square, Coolidge Corner, on Center Street and Harvard Ave, Inman, Central and Davis Squares, and even in Orient Heights. Diversity isn't the problem with DTX, and I don't think any of its critics (myself included) have suggested that this is so.

I'm going to guess that kids hanging out on Revere Beach are often railed against by local business people. Those kids, I assume, are white.

The kid's are generally Latino and South Asian, from Lynn and Revere. They're generally not the problem. Older Latino gang members (18th street, MS 13), and bikers (mainly the Lynn chapter of the Hell's Angels) hold court near Kelly's. Occasionally have "disagreements" about the underground pharmaceutical trade. Sand isn't the only white powder on Revere Beach.

 

[BostonObserver]

czsz try a visit to reality

The couple anecdotes thrown around in this thread of purse-snatching attempts - common in any busy shopping district, worldwide - haven't altered this perception.

Theft is now ok?

It's unfortunate that so many find it seemingly threatening.

So I should not find being physically attacked and verbally assaulted threatening?

----
Name calling doesn't add anthing to your argument.

-Van
---

 

[chumbolly]

BostonObserver, come on, don't be so petulant.

Getting back to the discussion, when I suggested DTX needs a BID, I wasn't thinking so much about security as cleanliness. Personally, I feel more threatened at Cambridgeside Galleria than I do at DTX. I'm a big believer in the broken windows theory when it comes to places like DTX--if you keep the place really clean, and spend a few dollars making the place look good, a lot of social problems will recede on their own.

 

[Ron Newman]

What DTX really needs is a concerted effort by landlords and the city to fill storefront vacancies. Make it commercially lively again, and all other problems will begin to solve themselves.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

I wasn't thinking so much about security as cleanliness.

This is what I was getting at originaly. This is the most visable and effective way to change an area on the cheap.

if you keep the place really clean, and spend a few dollars making the place look good, a lot of social problems will recede on their own.

Well let's be honest, they won't go away, just out of sight out of mind.

 

[czsz]

Theft isn't okay, obviously, but insinuating that the groups of teenagers hanging out in Downtown Crossing are inherently linked to such theft to the extent that they all need to be "chased away" is an overreaction. Theft can be managed within the existing commercial and cultural fabric of the neighborhood. The Ramblas in Barcelona is one of the best gigs in the world for purse-snatchers and pickpockets, but no one there is panicked and desperate to evict the people who regularly hang out there.

I'm with Ron; the best way to improve Downtown Crossing is to fill its storefront vacancies and increase the number and diversity of people who course through it. What I'm really deadset against are attempts to wholesale "cleanse" it of its character or socioeconomic profile. I bristle at hearing suggestions that the neighborhood must be made upscale, and that low-income shopping has to move out of central Boston. I'd rather have those south of Melena Cass Boulevard come to shop on Washington St. than at South Bay. Downtown Crossing is an asset to the city insofar as it brings together many of its ethnic and income groups, and many of the proposed changes may make it inhospitable to these communities, balkanizing Boston even further.

 

[belmont square]

My mom feels sketched out there at high noon. She'd rather drive to a mall. That's a shame.

While we can all hope for an improved Downtown Crossing, I would hope most of us would agree that people who prefer driving to the mall because they are sketched out by the district at noon (I ran errands there with my two young daughters this afternoon) should not be the target demographic for planned improvements.

Not because we don't want to lure people away from malls.

Not because the district is not objectively "sketchy" at certain hours of the day

But because Downtown Crossing is ill-suited to lure in the mall shopper that finds the current noon-time scene threatening without losing whatever soul it currently has.