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Cortes said:
I didn't use the term "Boston Proper", with capital letters by accident folks. Take a look at a map.
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Yes, peeps need to reacquaint themselves with "Boston Proper" -- that does NOT include Dorchester!
 
My definition of "Boston Proper" would be the official legal definition of Boston.......which would then include Dorchester, Roxbury, Hyde Park, West Roxbury.......etc. To me, "Boston Proper" is the actual legal city of Boston boundary. While "Greater Boston" of course would include Cambridge, Newton, Brookline, Chelsea.....etc. At least, that's what I've always understood. "Boston Proper" contains many neighborhoods such as North End, South End, Downtown Crossing, Beacon Hill, Back Bay, Fenway, Dorchester, Hyde Park, Roxbury, West Roxbury, Allston, Brighton, Mattapan, South Boston...........just to name a few.
 
Java King said:
My definition of "Boston Proper" would be the official legal definition of Boston.......which would then include Dorchester, Roxbury, Hyde Park, West Roxbury.......etc. To me, "Boston Proper" is the actual legal city of Boston boundary. While "Greater Boston" of course would include Cambridge, Newton, Brookline, Chelsea.....etc. At least, that's what I've always understood. "Boston Proper" contains many neighborhoods such as North End, South End, Downtown Crossing, Beacon Hill, Back Bay, Fenway, Dorchester, Hyde Park, Roxbury, West Roxbury, Allston, Brighton, Mattapan, South Boston...........just to name a few.
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You're referring to the City of Boston. Often when people talk about "Boston Proper" they mean "Boston minus annexed neighborhoods", that being Downtown, North End, West End, Beacon Hill, Chinatown, South End, Back Bay, and Fenway-Kenmore.
 
George_Apley said:
You're referring to the City of Boston. Often when people talk about "Boston Proper" they mean "Boston minus annexed neighborhoods", that being Downtown, North End, West End, Beacon Hill, Chinatown, South End, Back Bay, and Fenway-Kenmore.
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I found various definitions online, so I would say we are both correct. :)

Boston is the capital and most populous city of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in the United States, and the 21st most populous city in the United States. The city proper covers 48 square miles (124 km2) with an estimated population of 694,583 in 2018, also making it the most populous city in New England.
 
Java King said:
I found various definitions online, so I would say we are both correct. :)

Boston is the capital and most populous city of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in the United States, and the 21st most populous city in the United States. The city proper covers 48 square miles (124 km2) with an estimated population of 694,583 in 2018, also making it the most populous city in New England.
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Yeah it’s a lot of semantics. I’d say that the “city proper” is the city limits, while “Boston Proper” is old Boston. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
George_Apley said:
You're referring to the City of Boston. Often when people talk about "Boston Proper" they mean "Boston minus annexed neighborhoods", that being Downtown, North End, West End, Beacon Hill, Chinatown, South End, Back Bay, and Fenway-Kenmore.
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I would say most uses I hear are used to distinguish the city from the inner metro area, as java used it. Sometimes with an additional implication to mean the old original city parts, but less often. I'm not a fan of trying to get precise on terms that have no real definitions, but that's how I've heard it used.
 
Yeah. Ultimately it doesn’t really matter. Boston is particularly odd with it having annexed only some of its surrounding communities, so any stats about the City of Boston aren’t especially useful because a big chunk of the urban core is omitted.
 
The last neighborhood annexed to Boston was Hyde Park...107 years ago. So at best some of you were wee tykes when any concept of 'old vs new Boston' was relevant.
This is a hilariously pedantic sub-thread.
 
I’ve lived here for 10 years and have never heard this usage of “Boston Proper”. Not even on AB.
 
fattony said:
I’ve lived here for 10 years and have never heard this usage of “Boston Proper”. Not even on AB.
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It is possibly a term that has fallen into disuse. The BRA used to even use it in zoning maps, etc.

Boston Proper is generally defined as the historical contiguous neighborhoods around the original Shawmut peninsula. These would be neighborhoods created by landfill versus annexation.

North End
West End
Bulfinch Triangle
Financial District
Downtown Crossing
Beacon Hill
Back Bay
Bay Village
South End
Chinatown
(Fenway?)
 
HarvardP said:
The last neighborhood annexed to Boston was Hyde Park...107 years ago. So at best some of you were wee tykes when any concept of 'old vs new Boston' was relevant.
This is a hilariously pedantic sub-thread.
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fattony said:
I’ve lived here for 10 years and have never heard this usage of “Boston Proper”. Not even on AB.
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Well that's what happens when someone uses a term they think people will understand a certain way and when they don't, a protracted back-and-forth ensues about the explanation of the term. Like I said, it doesn't really matter. Now everyone knows what Cortes meant, and we also learned something about the history of Boston nomenclature. Cheers to that.
 
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Cortes said:
Boston Proper indeed refers to "Boston minus annexed neighborhoods". This is much like "The City" in London; they happen to be of similar size. This link seems to be as authoritative of a map in this discussion as I could find.

Outline & index map of city of Boston proper - Norman B. Leventhal Map & Education Center

collections.leventhalmap.org collections.leventhalmap.org
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This also exists:

www.boston.gov

Historic Public Works records

We have information below on City of Boston atlases and survey books from the past.
www.boston.gov www.boston.gov

Typically any plans by Boston Public Works and Boston Transportation Department categorize the areas of the city like this. For example, it's very frequent that they call JP and Roslindale part of West Roxbury because in terms of the old maps and how the city administers infrastructure, they are still part of West Roxbury. This is regardless of whether a portion of that original neighborhood/former city has established it's own identity in the past 100 years. Note that the BPDA on the other hand typically does not label districts of the city this way.
 
sm89 said:
Typically any plans by Boston Public Works and Boston Transportation Department categorize the areas of the city like this. For example, it's very frequent that they call JP and Roslindale part of West Roxbury because in terms of the old maps and how the city administers infrastructure, they are still part of West Roxbury. This is regardless of whether a portion of that original neighborhood/former city has established it's own identity in the past 100 years. Note that the BPDA on the other hand typically does not label districts of the city this way.
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The map I posted was drawn in 1860. This was on purpose, as I was trying to evidence that I used to the term how it was originally intended, not how it has been interpreted. Note that it does not include East Boston, which had been annexed in 1836. I will say though, that these boundaries, most especially the bump out that includes South Hampton street to the west of Mass Ave, are STILL used by the court system in Boston.
 
Cortes said:
The map I posted was drawn in 1860. This was on purpose, as I was trying to evidence that I used to the term how it was originally intended, not how it has been interpreted. Note that it does not include East Boston, which had been annexed in 1836. I will say though, that these boundaries, most especially the bump out that includes South Hampton street to the west of Mass Ave, are STILL used by the court system in Boston.
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Cortes -- there have been many attempts over the years on the ABforum to define Boston Properly [ :cool: ] suffice to say its in the keys struck by the author of a document -- anything from [hierarchically] :
  1. Shawmut Peninsula as settled by Winthrop's "band of brothers and sisters" circa 1630's
  2. 1+ the result of the fillings of the Coves and wharfing out into the harbor which would even encompass the last major land-making in Boston [filling of Bird Island Flats to create the strip of Logan where the Massport HQ and Hyatt Hotel are located]
  3. 2+ the independent towns and cities annexed by Boston
  4. 3+ the urbanized area of adjacent cities and towns -- largely served by the old MTA district [including Brookline]
  5. Everything inside Rt-128
  6. The Metro district boundaries
    1. the Cities and Towns served by the MBTA circa 2020
    2. the Cities and Towns served by the MWRA circa 2020
    3. the officially recognized boundaries of the Boston Metropolitan Statistical Area*1
      1. ranked tenth in population among US metropolitan statistical areas, home to 4,875,390 people as of the 2018 US Census estimate,
  7. Greater Boston in the Greatest Sense
    1. the officially recognized boundaries of the Boston Combined Statistical Area*1 -- which includes parts of NH, RI and is more populous than MA itself
      1. sixth among combined statistical areas, with a population of 8,285,407 -- CSA additionally includes the municipalities of Manchester (the largest city in the U.S. state of New Hampshire), Worcester, Massachusetts (the second largest city in New England), as well as the South Coast region and Cape Cod in Massachusetts.
    2. and finally the general term of the Boston Region -- best defined by continuous light seen in nighttime satellite photos which also includes medium sized bits of ME, and small bits of VT and CT
  8. as an addendum -- the area of Boston influence measured by things like:
    1. Boundary of places directly impacted by people who commute to within Greater Boston [some number of people are commuting from as far away as Central Maine]
    2. TV Broadcast Footprint [original chs 2, 4, 5, 7] -- direct reception and coverage by local cable systems
    3. Federal Reserve District
    4. Federal Appeals Court District
    5. Old "First Naval District" [1903-1976]
    6. 1st Coast Guard District
      1. HQ @ 408 Atlantic Ave responsible for all Coast Guard missions across eight states in the Northeast including over 2,000 miles of coastline from the U.S.-Canadian border to northern New Jersey and 1300 miles offshore.*2
      2. located very close to the site of the Boston Tea Party
      3. Rear Admiral Tiongson assumed the duties of Commander, First Coast Guard District in June 2018
      4. Coast Guard Base on the edge of the old Shawmut Peninsula
    7. FAA "Boston Center" coverage
    8. NECN and NESN footprints
    9. the commuting to games part of the fan-base of the Red Sox includes some of Canada and even some of NY State
*1
from Wiki on Greater Boston
Greater Boston can be described either as a metropolitan statistical area (MSA), or as a broader combined statistical area (CSA). The MSA consists of most of the eastern third of Massachusetts, excluding the South Coast region and Cape Cod; while the CSA additionally includes the municipalities of Manchester (the largest city in the U.S. state of New Hampshire), Worcester, Massachusetts (the second largest city in New England), as well as the South Coast region and Cape Cod in Massachusetts. While the small footprint of the city of Boston itself only contains an estimated 685,094, the urbanization has extended well into surrounding areas; the CSA is one of two in Massachusetts, the only other being Greater Springfield. Greater Boston is the only CSA-form statistical area in New England which crosses into three states (Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Rhode Island).

Some of Greater Boston's most well-known contributions involve the region's higher education and medical institutions. Greater Boston has been influential upon American history and industry. The region and the state of Massachusetts are global leaders in biotechnology, engineering, higher education, finance, and maritime trade.[1]

Over 80% of Massachusetts' population lives in the Greater Boston metropolitan region. Greater Boston is ranked tenth in population among US metropolitan statistical areas, home to 4,875,390 people as of the 2018 US Census estimate, and sixth among combined statistical areas, with a population of 8,285,407.[2] The area has hosted many people and sites significant to American culture and history, particularly American literature,[3] politics, and the American Revolution.
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*2 by the definition of what is controlled from Boston -- well NY Harbor is included in the boundaries 🙃
 
whighlander said:
Cortes -- there have been many attempts over the years on the ABforum to define Boston Properly [ :cool: ] suffice to say its in the keys struck by the author of a document -- anything from [hierarchically] :
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I agree 100% with the idea that this is the place to come for these type discussions. I evidenced my notion of "Boston Proper" by citing one the most important maps in Boston's history, and feel like that's good enough for me. That said, as a resident of said area, I kind of want to pull a "if you lived here" or "if you have to ask" type of nonsense, but really it's all good. My voice was heard.
 
Talk about a huuuuuge space!! Nice photos BeeLine.
 
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