Fairmount Line Upgrade

vanshnookenraggen said:
Before this thread.... derails.... onto some NYC topic, the TriboroRX and Fairmont are vastly different animals. Fairmount was an existing commuter rail line that needed more stations and more service. TriboroRX is a single track freight line that didn't have passenger service for most stretches and is in disrepair. A more appropriate comparison would be Penn Access which would add new stations along the NEC so that Metro North trains can serve the eastern Bronx into Penn Station.
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Thanks Van. i understand the concern about derailing (no pun intended) the thread
 
I'm moving these posts to this Housing thread that was last used in 2017. This is definitely a topic worthy of conversation. I'd like to keep this thread focused on developments surrounding the transit service.
 
Included in the Mayor's proposed $3.99 billion budget is $500k on a technical analysis to transform the Fairmount Line to a "subway-like service."

mass.streetsblog.org

Mayor Wu's First Budget Proposal Features Bus Lane Projects, Safer Streets, and Transit-Oriented Housing - Streetsblog Massachusetts

The proposed budget is an "unprecedented investment because this is an unprecedented moment," Mayor Wu told her cabinet members and City Councilors at a breakfast presentation in City Hall Wednesday morning.
mass.streetsblog.org mass.streetsblog.org
 
Smuttynose said:
Included in the Mayor's proposed $3.99 billion budget is $500k on a technical analysis to transform the Fairmount Line to a "subway-like service."

mass.streetsblog.org

Mayor Wu's First Budget Proposal Features Bus Lane Projects, Safer Streets, and Transit-Oriented Housing - Streetsblog Massachusetts

The proposed budget is an "unprecedented investment because this is an unprecedented moment," Mayor Wu told her cabinet members and City Councilors at a breakfast presentation in City Hall Wednesday morning.
mass.streetsblog.org mass.streetsblog.org
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Maybe this is too "crazy transit pitch" territory, but what I would love is Fairmount become subway service, build NS Rail Link and make Fairmount a branch of the blue line.

OR subwayify part of newbury port line and connect it through to Chelsea for a whole separate line.
 
DAVE said:
Maybe this is too "crazy transit pitch" territory, but what I would love is Fairmount become subway service, build NS Rail Link and make Fairmount a branch of the blue line.

OR subwayify part of newbury port line and connect it through to Chelsea for a whole separate line.
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I love the idea, but IMO mix-running a proper rapid transit Fairmount-Chelsea line with commuter rail in NSRL will likely be an operational nightmare, unless we do a 4-track NSRL build.
 
Teban54 said:
I love the idea, but IMO mix-running a proper rapid transit Fairmount-Chelsea line with commuter rail in NSRL will likely be an operational nightmare, unless we do a 4-track NSRL build.
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Would be even better to connect it with the silver line out to Chelsea imo.
 
tysmith95 said:
Would be even better to connect it with the silver line out to Chelsea imo.
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Hmm, or maybe you could convert it to light rail and connect it to the Transitway out to the Seaport. (Can't go to Chelsea that way though unless you build a new tunnel.) The connection would have to be 100% grade-separated through the Amtrak and MBTA maintenance yards and tunnel under the South Station leads and the I-90 tunnel to get to the Transitway, which would be... challenging.
 
DAVE said:
Maybe this is too "crazy transit pitch" territory, but what I would love is Fairmount become subway service, build NS Rail Link and make Fairmount a branch of the blue line.

OR subwayify part of newbury port line and connect it through to Chelsea for a whole separate line.
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Fairmount is still the southside freight access for CSX, alternate route to SS for Amtrak in case of any issues with the NEC, and sole route for Amtrak to bring in large equipment (since that's damn sure not getting through Back Bay). And I'm pretty sure there's an F-Line post around detailing where and how that's codified in written agreements.

Taking Fairmount off the RR mode is legit God-Mode territory for that reason alone. You could cut-and-cover the existing rail and pop a Blue Line tunnel below it most likely, but there's definitely some issues there. Starting with: how are we connecting Blue to Fairmount, and why on earth does it have anything to do with NSRL??

It's a shame, because that corridor could definitely sustain a rapid transit line (and the ridership is depressed currently by the fact that it isn't show-and-go service levels, people just take buses to Orange and Red instead).
 
roy_mustang76 said:
Fairmount is still the southside freight access for CSX, alternate route to SS for Amtrak in case of any issues with the NEC, and sole route for Amtrak to bring in large equipment (since that's damn sure not getting through Back Bay). And I'm pretty sure there's an F-Line post around detailing where and how that's codified in written agreements.

Taking Fairmount off the RR mode is legit God-Mode territory for that reason alone. You could cut-and-cover the existing rail and pop a Blue Line tunnel below it most likely, but there's definitely some issues there. Starting with: how are we connecting Blue to Fairmount, and why on earth does it have anything to do with NSRL??

It's a shame, because that corridor could definitely sustain a rapid transit line (and the ridership is depressed currently by the fact that it isn't show-and-go service levels, people just take buses to Orange and Red instead).
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valid points. The reason I said NR rail link is cause if you're gonna tunnel from south station to Blue then why would you not make it part of NS rail link..
 
DAVE said:
valid points. The reason I said NR rail link is cause if you're gonna tunnel from south station to Blue then why would you not make it part of NS rail link..
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Because interfacing between Blue and NSRL would be a nightmare. NSRL, out of necessity, is going to be well below all of the rapid transit levels. Take a look at this profile drawing:

NSRL+Profile-VHB+DEIR-MIS+Fig.+2.5-7.jpg


NSRL ends up 50 feet below Blue at the point that Blue crosses it, and on top of that, on the CA/T alignment that's pretty much right where Aquarium station is. So in order to hook into NSRL, you've got to somehow junction off of Blue between State and Aquarium, bang a left and also descend to somewhere between 30 and 50 feet lower somewhere between Aquarium and South Station. There's no room. It's also a terrible idea to branch Blue before State (Orange) and GC(Green), assuming you're planning to through-run up to Wonderland/Lynn.

What you could do, if we're committed to the bit, is tunnel under South Station from the Fairmount, run up Congress in a new tunnel, portal up to elevated after Haymarket, and find your own way over to Chelsea from there. That, too, is firmly in Crazy Transit Pitches. But mixing NSRL, Fairmount, and Blue... too many blockers, not enough benefit. EMU-ing Fairmount would be cheaper and faster.


EDIT: I want to be clear, I appreciate you taking an interest in this ROW! It's definitely underserved currently, but if you want to re-use an existing line, you've got to find another way. Blue just points the wrong way unless you skip most all of downtown.
 
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roy_mustang76 said:
Because interfacing between Blue and NSRL would be a nightmare. NSRL, out of necessity, is going to be well below all of the rapid transit levels. Take a look at this profile drawing:

NSRL+Profile-VHB+DEIR-MIS+Fig.+2.5-7.jpg


NSRL ends up 50 feet below Blue at the point that Blue crosses it, and on top of that, on the CA/T alignment that's pretty much right where Aquarium station is. So in order to hook into NSRL, you've got to somehow junction off of Blue between State and Aquarium, bang a left and also descend to somewhere between 30 and 50 feet lower somewhere between Aquarium and South Station. There's no room. It's also a terrible idea to branch Blue before State (Orange) and GC(Green), assuming you're planning to through-run up to Wonderland/Lynn.

What you could do, if we're committed to the bit, is tunnel under South Station from the Fairmount, run up Congress in a new tunnel, portal up to elevated after Haymarket, and find your own way over to Chelsea from there. That, too, is firmly in Crazy Transit Pitches. But mixing NSRL, Fairmount, and Blue... too many blockers, not enough benefit. EMU-ing Fairmount would be cheaper and faster.
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Right. Transportation is a lot like painting - don't mix your mediums. Don't mix your acrylics with your oils. Don't mix your NSRL with your BL.
Besides, everybody knows the Blue Line should go direct to Kenmore after Charles << pulls pin, drops explosive statement, walks away >>.
 
As much as I have dreamed about doing exactly a cut and cover under Fairmont for true subway service (with a super station in Mattapan Square), yeah, it always comes back to what do you do at the South Station end of the line. Best I can do is a bunch of hand-waving to get across the yard and take up the track + some of the haul road into the Seaport, and more hand-waving to either go into the transit way to SS or figure out a new tunnel (or just end there which... isn't ideal), although then it generally goes back to: light rail is probably better for all that. It would also end up as completely isolated with an at best connection to the red line as a walk right between Broadway and Andrew which is super far.

Which is why I end up always to the conclusion that Tailguy points out: EMUs are the way and can be as good as actual heavy subway rail. In Japan the switch between actual subways and EMUs is pretty much seamless - you would almost have no idea as the EMU network essentially runs as a subway, and the rolling stock is right on point for it. Same thing in the EU. Even in Italy the EMUs were basically subway services on their existing rail. Also add the AGV Italo is amazing and cheap - if you have a chance while in Rome, totally hop on it. The Shinkansen, too, of course, but I guess I expect that in Japan and was rather pleasantly surprised in Italy with how good the train service was. So, yeah, I think every 5-10 minute subway-like EMU service out to Hyde Park/Dedham on the Fairmont is the way to go. Easily 15 minute ride to South Station from Mattapan Square, which is a complete game changer. Also keeps the ability to route Amtrak and other trains if needed down it if something happens on the NEC.
 
Exactly, to EMU fairmount you can just electrify whats there and buy rolling stock, and with modern EMU’s it can basically be equal to subway service. Especially if you have nsrl and it goes through downtown to the northern routes. This is why nsrl and electrification are so important because it can turn basically the whole CR network into a 15 minute headway, subway adjacent system, that makes it so much of eastern ma’s cities are reachable from eachother by rail vs just funneling everything downtown.

Live in Brockton and work in Lynn? Hop on the EMU in Brockton, transfer at north station, ride EMU to Lynn. It unlocks the existing infrastructure and ROW’s we have full potential to truely become a generational project. It would actually take hundreds of thousands of ppl out of cars vs a south coast rail here and a nashua there though those are important too. Thats why its so egregious that nsrl isnt even in any early stage of development right now because its a 15 year project so we need to be starting 5 years ago.
 
EMUs are a great idea, but maybe more in the form of something that can fit other places as well.
 
DAVE said:
OR subwayify part of newbury port line and connect it through to Chelsea for a whole separate line.
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How would that even be possible without eliminating the rest of the line? There’s justification for rapid transit service as far North as Downtown Beverly. But turning that into a branch of the Blue line would eliminate everything North of that - or is there something I’m missing
 
roy_mustang76 said:
It's definitely underserved currently, but if you want to re-use an existing line, you've got to find another way. Blue just points the wrong way unless you skip most all of downtown.
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Agree with the consensus on EMUs, but there is a routing that might work for the Blue Line (full God mode, of course). People are thinking about it as a ride from the North Shore to Dorchester. But what if we envision the Blue Line main as running from MGH to State, then branching, with the new branch heading down Congress St. It could stop at Post Office Square, South Station, then run South toward the Fairmont ROW.
 
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