Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

30% faster?!! The minimum running time will be about 85 minutes from the terminals. How is that 30% faster than 90 minutes?

If it was actually 30% faster, this service might have a chance in hell of working... but it's not.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

There's that word again. You're using it wrong, this isn't an 'investment'.

The term "investment" implies a financial return, but not necessarily one paid back to the same people who made the initial expenditure. When you're dealing with regional government, I would argue that a return to the regional economy can count as paying back an investment made by the public.

South Station expansion, GLX, and such are investments in the economies of Boston and Somerville, which the Commonwealth hopes will be paid back in jobs, corporate tax dollars, and development.

SCR is indeed an investment if the goal is to pump money into the region which will be answered by economic booms in NB and FR. One could make the case that it's a terrible investment as SCR is unlikely to have much of an impact on the declining CBDs of those cities, but you can't let it off the hook completely by implying that the MBTA is "just spending money" without any expectation of meaningful return.

30% faster?!! The minimum running time will be about 85 minutes from the terminals. How is that 30% faster than 90 minutes?

If it was actually 30% faster, this service might have a chance in hell of working... but it's not.

I read 75, which is 30% faster than 1:40 or so. Not crazy at all given traffic.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I read 75, which is 30% faster than 1:40 or so.

... using trains powered by overhead electrification. The diesel alternative is projected at 85 minutes. And both are premised upon the flawless execution of meets which F-line has gone over in detail.

We went over this: do you really believe the MBTA is going to splurge on the support infrastructure to make electric train operation possible, just to give SCR a 75 minute trip? They won't even do it for the Providence line which is electrified and ready to go!

If this monster gets funded, then the first thing that will go away, once someone with sense gets given this plan, is the idea of using the electric alternative.

Okay, 85 minutes to South Station: now connect to your final destination. Travel time's about the same as driving unless you work at South Station/CBD. And I'll admit, even if it is the same, the train is probably much more pleasant. But you could buy a whole fleet of commuter buses for much less than $2 billion, have them serve destinations all over the Boston area, and still provide more frequent service than SCR. Starting from FR and NB. And it would take about the same trip time.

If SCR cost 10x less then it would make good sense, and we'd be talking about fixing some of the more egregious station and access problems. But at $2 billion, it's threatening to blow up the entire Commonwealth's will to ever fund any transit project ever again.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

If SCR cost 10x less then it would make good sense, and we'd be talking about fixing some of the more egregious station and access problems. But at $2 billion, it's threatening to blow up the entire Commonwealth's will to ever fund any transit project ever again.

THIS.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Rail access to Newport is now functionally impossible for the next 35 years* because the only remaining option for getting into Newport that didn't involve billion-dollar bridges and/or fighting Bristol County every step of the way was over the Sakonnet River.

Tiverton and Portsmouth (and to a slightly lesser extent Little Compton, Middletown, and Newport itself) are now in all likelihood even larger enemies than Barrington would have been on the purely in-state alignment because the minute you start talking about rail from Fall River to Newport, the conversation is going to become "you started tolling us for a RAIL BRIDGE? TO FALL RIVER?!" It isn't even going to be about the merits of the rail connection, the conversation has already been defined for us based on the outcome of the bridge tolling.

Personally I don't think Newport is a compelling enough destination for either RI (who will probably give the #60 bus the R-Line treatment and maybe start exploring dedicated lanes for it long before they go in on South Coast as "rail to Newport") or MA (who have no interest in Newport except for what they can get RI to cough up in subsidy and even then Newport is something of a competitor to the Cape) to have any meaningful impact on South Coast Rail one way or the other - but I did want to just make the point that this thing is salted earth in RI at this point.*

* Caveat: If the opponents of the Sakonnet Bridge Toll somehow manage to get it removed, Newport rail is probably back on the table. Otherwise, 35 years is my 'thrown at the wall' guess for how long it takes those guys to forget about the injustice dealt to them by the toll.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

It's too bad the Middleborough station is just past the split to Taunton, otherwise it seems like it would be easy to extent Middleborough trains to a park and ride at the intersection of 24 and 140 (or at that giant mall parking lot).

How long does it take for a dividing train to divide / conjoin?
 
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I applaud your optimism but I don't think any rational individual would consider SCR in and of itself to be a sufficient catalyst for an economic boom in the region.

Neither do I... my argument isn't that this is a GOOD investment, just that you can't dismiss the framework of public investment in a community or region for an indirect return.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

First of all, I don't see much value in placing a snarky nickname on the first Governor in thirty years to even consider making rational and well-funded transit investments. He may be "Cadillac Deval" as compared to your hyper-pragmatic bare-bones aesthetics-be-damned approach, but I doubt any politician will ever see it differently. Also, it isn't totally false that building nice stations and comfortable waiting areas and making a transit line seem permanent DOES gain you ridership. It may not be enough to justify the cost, but it's not nothing.

Yes. It does do nothing when the service is too poor to serve the stations. It does absolutely nothing to have a pretty place to wait for the train. The Governor is not addressing the region's best interests by handing them a ten-layers-of-bullshit covered $2B train that doesn't do what it's promised to.

Furthermore, I stated explicitly that the station aesthetics had more varied funding sources. It's still a waste of money, but the T isn't floating as much of that bill. My main concern with the station cost bloat is the parking metrics that are so flawed the capacity exceeds projected ridership and assumes lot utilization that no other commuter rail line achieves. And these have not been adjusted down while the ridership has. Why do we have to assume "well, it's something" that the parking over-capacity is costing hundreds of millions more than the parking demand. Isn't that an easy fix.

Middleboro station: it was built with a small lot. Then expanded 3 times as the demand increased and TOD buildings started sprouting up around the station. And stuck a traffic light and turn lanes for the access road only when volumes hit the point where they needed it. It worked great and helped control the costs to only build on the parcel in small pieces as demand merited and revenue intake could pay off. Why is that not on the table here? Why is building it all an emotional argument?

The rational argument against phasing is one we hear all the time on this site, F-Line: the first phase of a project is the only one they're committed to build. It's a little different for something like GLX which is committed in its entirety and phased only in terms of scope, but can you think of a single successful transit project in Boston that actually primed a route with buses, proved the ridership, then made the leap and built a train? The MBTA are experts at breaking promises, in JP, Watertown, etc.
Except...the service does not work at all built in one fell swoop. This is not GLX; building it without phasing means this awful skip-stop service at fewest trains per day of any commuter rail service, and peak hour service that must sit at a dead stop for more than 10 minutes every trip to allow the other branch to pass on the crippled mainline.

You know how else this state works? When a service fails they forget about it. With this projected ridership and all the problems keeping it on-time they are not going to second-phase the double tracking of the mainline to de-cripple it. They will let it become forgotten Plymouth, and it'll be first in line for further service cuts along with Needham and Greenbush in any budget crisis or when they need to save face on system-wide OTP by gutting headways on the lines with the habitual worst OTP.

What exactly is being fought for here to get "something". There is compelling evidence this hurts South Coast's growth ceiling to get stuck with Big Dig ignominy for a service that doesn't work well enough to bring enough coattails to any of the towns.

It's all well and good to you if the project dies after Taunton, because that's all you think is a good idea anyway. It's little consolation to the people driving 90 minutes from NB to Boston each day, however, that the state dodged the money sink of getting them to work 30% faster...
Did you even read the quotes from the DEIR about travel times on this? It's 78 minutes to Fall River and 76 to New Bedford. Assuming it can run on time with the track capacity. You're right. A tippy-top 14 minutes of savings at a Zone 9 fare, inability to for either branch to get to/from half the intermediate stations at peak, inability to get to Route 128 shuttles at all, inability to get an off-peak or weekend headway shorter than 3 hours, and inability to get a direct bus from half the city of Fall River from one of these stations because the RTA's got shafted is a very small consolation indeed.

And the state did not dodge a money sink by not double-tracking. The state is spending $1B more than it would cost to double track for the electrification ferry to cover the fatal flaw of impossibly tight margins for train meets. 20 seconds longer dwell at each station ends up forcing extra multi-minute dead stops that land you at a 90 minute commute all the same and require more trains cut from the schedule such that FR and NB will have fewer than 10 trains per day. Do you get it? The service plan is an elaborate lie by the Army Corps predicated on OTP margins so microscopic the T can never commit to it. The schedule will get revised down in the final engineering plan. It will.

The only reason there is no double-tracking is because that had to be bartered away for at least 10 years at the onset to appease the NIMBY's. It has nothing to do with cost cuts. The electrification cost bloat is the ass-covering when they realized the single-tracking concession destroyed the entire service.

And like I said...there will be no hurry-up to infill the double-tracking if the ridership gets adjusted down again. 50 miles of Cordage Parks.


How is this salvaging something from nothing? Phasing it is salvaging something from nothing, because the service won't work and won't get fixed if it doesn't work.

I am not hearing any logical arguments for why this suicidal build must be so. Every proponent argument is hyper-emotional about being "owed"...your post the most hyper-emotional yet. OK? Where's the beef. There's a mountain of numbers and real substantiated facts on these last few pages about the grave concerns about this project doing more harm than good to everyone including the people it ostensibly serves. Can we get some...any...reciprocal substantiation from the pro side that isn't an aggrieved gut feeling?
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Rail access to Newport is now functionally impossible for the next 35 years* because the only remaining option for getting into Newport that didn't involve billion-dollar bridges and/or fighting Bristol County every step of the way was over the Sakonnet River.

Tiverton and Portsmouth (and to a slightly lesser extent Little Compton, Middletown, and Newport itself) are now in all likelihood even larger enemies than Barrington would have been on the purely in-state alignment because the minute you start talking about rail from Fall River to Newport, the conversation is going to become "you started tolling us for a RAIL BRIDGE? TO FALL RIVER?!" It isn't even going to be about the merits of the rail connection, the conversation has already been defined for us based on the outcome of the bridge tolling.

Personally I don't think Newport is a compelling enough destination for either RI (who will probably give the #60 bus the R-Line treatment and maybe start exploring dedicated lanes for it long before they go in on South Coast as "rail to Newport") or MA (who have no interest in Newport except for what they can get RI to cough up in subsidy and even then Newport is something of a competitor to the Cape) to have any meaningful impact on South Coast Rail one way or the other - but I did want to just make the point that this thing is salted earth in RI at this point.*

* Caveat: If the opponents of the Sakonnet Bridge Toll somehow manage to get it removed, Newport rail is probably back on the table. Otherwise, 35 years is my 'thrown at the wall' guess for how long it takes those guys to forget about the injustice dealt to them by the toll.

There's an opportunity for RI if the Middleboro Secondary gets a full upgrade for Amtrak's Cape Codder. Equipment capable of doing 90 MPH on the NEC to Attleboro Jct., 80 MPH on the extremely straight Middleboro Secondary, and 80 MPH on the as-designed Fall River Branch is not bad if it went limited-stop Providence-->Pawtucket-->Taunton-->Fall River, then local instate stops. Because the entirety of that routing is south of the crippled Stoughton mainline they do have slots to take that the Boston runs would not. And that's exactly why they put the Fall River connection study in the RI State Rail Plan. It's a roundabout routing, but they think they can do it on a schedule that's close enough ballpark range to driving and bridge tolls to attract ridership via the usual rail convenience.

I don't think the Bristol + new bridge semi-direct can ever happen until Mt. Hope bridge is outright up for replacement. Which may not happen for another 50 years because it's on the Historic Register and got major rehab not too long ago. RIDOT is simply too small to initiate rail capital projects wholly of its own volition. That's why South County and Woonsocket have to bootstrap on pristine-condition NEC and P&W mainlines, freight interests, and the T. Why further expansion from there is likewise dependent on Massachusetts and P&W to Worcester, Massachusetts on the Fall River Branch, and possibly some Amtrak interests on the Cape Codder or a like-minded "Newporter". And why Amtrak 2040 is their only feasible path for due-west commuter rail or reconnection of the tunnel to East Providence for them to even have access to the Bristol Branch.

Hell...even having the option to reconnect from the state line to a new bridge is dependent on somebody else. Tiverton's considered "out-of-service" because P&W never abandoned its freight rights on Aquidneck Island and has at-will reactivation rights to lay new track. That is the state's only leverage for beating back all the NIMBY's and rich beachfront property owners; the payola only has to be for allowing higher-speed traffic above and beyond what it was before, not for re-laying track and grade crossings at all.


It's just what they are as a small state; they need that kind of safety in a crowd. The Providence streetcar is the first rail transit project they're going to mount all by themselves. And of course that one's been vaporware for so long it's appropriate skepticism--as well as one of the biggest tests they've ever faced of their ability to get things done--to see through that build. Not only with the ever-shrinking starter line, but in a way that encourages expansion.

I don't think any other rail projects that aren't riding in Amtrak's, the T's, or P&W's coattails are mountable until their ability to manage the streetcar ROBUSTLY passes flying colors. So I'd embrace the prospect of the around-the-horn Newport run if they can get it close enough range where it's attractive for a couple rush hour runs (definitely in-season it'll be a huge hit). That's no tragedy; RI wouldn't have any options at all any other way were it not for the leg up served by its partners.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

It's too bad the Middleborough station is just past the split to Taunton, otherwise it seems like it would be easy to extent Middleborough trains to a park and ride at the intersection of 24 and 140 (or at that giant mall parking lot).

How long does it take for a dividing train to divide / conjoin?

The Old Colony doesn't have that capacity. That's why the M'boro alternative was eliminated way early. That would cost nearly a billion too double-tracking Dorchester and Quincy to pull off, and there would still be congestion problems all the same feeding Greenbush, Plymouth, Middleboro, Hyannis, Fall River, and New Bedford off one mainline. It was never practical.

The Attleboro alternative was 'slightly' more practical, but got violent NIMBY opposition in Norton and Taunton. Taunton's objections were legit because the Middleboro Secondary is a grade crossing hell through downtown that would've been a serious problem if there were any more daily trains than a couple freights, a couple in-season Amtrak Cape Codders or Providence Cape Flyers, and a few daily RIDOT Providence-Newport extras. Basically...not a whole lot more palatable than using the Grand Junction for more than 10 movements a day.


You CAN thru-route Cape extras from Stoughton-Taunton-Middleboro quite very easily on those Friday afternoons when the Cape Flyer can't fit around the Middleboro locals. But only if the Stoughton line were double-tracked. Then you could serve an effective 3 peak branches with full FR/NB schedules and a Hyannis-Middleboro that runs express to Boston in less time than the all-stop locals.

But, of course, fuggedaboutit with the gimp build SCR calls for. The Task Force has been totally tone-deaf about the Cape factor...tying Taunton Depot into the Cape Codder or Providence Flyer, thru-routing...FR/NB-to-Cape shuttles. They've been totally tone-deaf about the Newport factor and won't give the RI gov't a seat at the table. They've wasted more time acting in direct competition to Cape Rail and the Cape Chamber of Commerce for alpha dog status in Beacon Hill than it has seeking partners that would actually help them.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The Old Colony doesn't have that capacity.

I was suggesting just a one stop extension from Middleborough to near the 24/140 interchange. The Galleria mall already sees bus service from Taunton and the commuter buses from NB appear to stop there as well. Don't know about FR...

Also, what if FR was a Stoughton (or Attleboro) extension and NB was a Middleborough extension? Then you wouldn't have to worry about all that single track, but it probably wouldn't cost any less.

Anyway Middleborough sees 12 trains a day right now, even if half of those were extended to FR and half were extended to NB they're not that much worse off than the current plan.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I've always thought the South Cost rail should go via Fairmount, Norwood and Foxboro, thereby not eating up NEC capacity and also giving Foxboro some scheduled service. It doesn't do anything for the trip times or the grade crossing in Taunton, however.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I am not hearing any logical arguments for why this suicidal build must be so. Every proponent argument is hyper-emotional about being "owed"...your post the most hyper-emotional yet. OK? Where's the beef. There's a mountain of numbers and real substantiated facts on these last few pages about the grave concerns about this project doing more harm than good to everyone including the people it ostensibly serves. Can we get some...any...reciprocal substantiation from the pro side that isn't an aggrieved gut feeling?

The argument is pretty simple. If SCR goes back to the drawing board, most believe it'll never happen. Or, best case scenario, it will be delayed for decades. I (and a few others) have made the point repeatedly.

It's a logical argument when you consider that a South Coast Rail connection has been discussed or proposed for over two decades. It's logical because the NIMBY component is huge (you've even acknowledged this), saying the Army Corps has been difficult may be the biggest understatement in recent history, and most of us have very little faith that the impact studies and reviews process would be any quicker or more efficient a second time around.

I agree with most of your arguments about the proposal's flaws. My only disagreement is that I do think that the flawed service will attract riders better than you seem to think it will. That opinion is based on years of living in the South Coast and commuting to Boston and being all too familiar with the alternative commuting options. You're significantly underestimating the appeal that even an 80 minute, one seat ride will have to an area where there are currently no options that don't involve sitting on traffic on 24 and 93 (either in a car or bus). Obviously that's a "hunch" but it's a hunch based on experience and familiarity with the region.

But to reiterate the answer to your question, the primary argument is simply that there's no faith that a revised proposal gets built. I'd much rather see a phased, double tracked approach, but I know that if they went back to the drawing board, I probably wouldn't ever see service. Do you honestly believe it would ever happen in a reasonable amount of time (if at all)?
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Maybe I'm missing the point, but isn't Fall River essentially a suburb of Providence? Imagine the Rhode Island border extended past Fall River, and nothing else about the population or commuting patterns changed. Wouldn't we be discussing how RIPTA is going to provide commuter service to Fall River (a la Woonsocket or Pawtucket)? We would never consider the need for direct Fall River-Boston link, bypassing Providence, right? I feel like this is just saying, "Well it's in MA and has this many people so we need to build rail service there." Without considering what would best serve everybody.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I don't think any other rail projects that aren't riding in Amtrak's, the T's, or P&W's coattails are mountable until their ability to manage the streetcar ROBUSTLY passes flying colors. So I'd embrace the prospect of the around-the-horn Newport run if they can get it close enough range where it's attractive for a couple rush hour runs (definitely in-season it'll be a huge hit). That's no tragedy; RI wouldn't have any options at all any other way were it not for the leg up served by its partners.

Right. For once, we're in agreement that this is the best possible routing (by default, being the only possible routing).

Where I'm disagreeing with you is in RIDOT's willingness to throw in on South Coast Rail in spite of all its many difficulties (and the fact that, as you've said, the Cheer Squad isn't so hot for dance partners in Newport or on the Cape) and because, taking all modal preference out of the conversation, the fact remains that Aquidneck Island just got burned with the ideological ten cent toll that's probably going to be a $2 toll at this time next year.

I think at this point it's salted earth because we're no longer going to be dealing with merely traditional East Bay NIMBYism; the conversation over any new capital project is going to be hijacked and defined in the context of the righteous anger that those communities have over the entire Sakonnet River Bridge Tolling fiasco.

And certainly, in the context of "South Coast Rail to Newport" the argument is then going to become that whatever money gets spent on this thing by RIDOT is illegitimate, that the train benefits Pawtucket and Taunton and Fall River far more than it benefits Aquidneck Island, and that there can be no compromise and no mitigation and no support from Portsmouth or Tiverton (or Newport or Middletown) unless and until the tolls are removed from the bridge.

I want to be perfectly clear that I am NOT arguing for rail to Newport to come from anywhere else than Fall River. Please don't misinterpret me.

I'm merely trying to point out that I think that, regardless of what RIDOT has added to their State Rail Plan, the enthusiasm for any capital project in the East Bay has now been virtually extinguished and their opposition to any capital project (especially one that is being undertaken primarily for the benefit of other communities) is going to be far more than I think RIDOT is willing to contest with (to say nothing of P&W, who we would need to ram this through because it does have to be rammed through at this point.)
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I've always thought the South Cost rail should go via Fairmount, Norwood and Foxboro, thereby not eating up NEC capacity and also giving Foxboro some scheduled service. It doesn't do anything for the trip times or the grade crossing in Taunton, however.

No. That is as much of a nonstarter for Foxboro as the Attleboro alternative because of the grade crossing traffic. Ridership would also be much lower because it passes up all unique destinations pre-Taunton that already have (or could have in Foxboro's case) dense CR schedules. Track capacity would be equally problematic because most of the Framingham Secondary was never more than single-tracked, necessitating all kinds of NEC supplementals that are going to get in the way of Providence headways. And the Framingham Secondary isn't as natively fast as the Stoughton Line...60 MPH vs. 80 MPH. So travel times would be worse and again you'd have to send so many extras down the NEC to patch it that it starts infringing on Providence traffic.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The argument is pretty simple. If SCR goes back to the drawing board, most believe it'll never happen. Or, best case scenario, it will be delayed for decades. I (and a few others) have made the point repeatedly.

It's a logical argument when you consider that a South Coast Rail connection has been discussed or proposed for over two decades. It's logical because the NIMBY component is huge (you've even acknowledged this), saying the Army Corps has been difficult may be the biggest understatement in recent history, and most of us have very little faith that the impact studies and reviews process would be any quicker or more efficient a second time around.

And I have zero faith the state will fix the crippled build with double-tracking if the service is this bad from the outset. And likely to slip below 10 round trips to each city, with another requisite slashing of the ridership projections, when final engineering confronts the utter impossibility of the Army Corps' train meet margin of error.

The flipside is hardly better. You have useless service, the ignominy of Big Dig Syndrome, a backpedal away from fixing it (Cordage Park Syndrome), and SCR being the very first line scaled back in a budget crisis (Needham Line Syndrome) because as it stands the ridership cannot cover the cost of fuel and staff salaries for the mileage involved (every other line can at least muster that much, if nothing else). This stymies the follow-through investment in the cities.


It's a fear-based response to clutch that tightly at the monolithic build when the result could be just as bad as nothing. There's good reason to have little faith in the follow-through...but that's exactly the point I'm making about "build it broken, fix it later". It'll never happen that way.

So...if it's nearly a given that phasing is the only way to ever achieve a non-broken service that could result in de-investment after it's open...why clutch ears and shout "NO! NO! NO!" when the risks are rapidly converging to par. This isn't rational.

I agree with most of your arguments about the proposal's flaws. My only disagreement is that I do think that the flawed service will attract riders better than you seem to think it will. That opinion is based on years of living in the South Coast and commuting to Boston and being all too familiar with the alternative commuting options. You're significantly underestimating the appeal that even an 80 minute, one seat ride will have to an area where there are currently no options that don't involve sitting on traffic on 24 and 93 (either in a car or bus). Obviously that's a "hunch" but it's a hunch based on experience and familiarity with the region.

Those aren't my feelings on the ridership. I quoted numbers from the DEIR for every single stop. Hard numbers. Hard numbers with hard numbers on how much they've been adjusted down. Hard numbers you can plug into a calculator and adjust further down when the final engineering declares the Army Corp's OTP margins impossible and adds 15 more minutes in train meet dwell times and cuts 2 more trains from the schedule to make it work.

How did this become a battle of "hunches"? This is exactly what I mean by the proponents having little to nothing in the tank but emotional arguments. I would love to hear a challenge on the numbers. But nobody has offered one at any level from straight to the top down to individuals on the Internet.

How does your experience counterpoint the hard numbers. And how much. Can you offer any evidence whatsoever other than intensity of belief?

I'm not putting you specifically on the spot here. We just have to start somewhere...somebody has to make the first move in this project's whole sordid history of backing up their hunch with quantifiable evidence. It hasn't been done yet.

But to reiterate the answer to your question, the primary argument is simply that there's no faith that a revised proposal gets built. I'd much rather see a phased, double tracked approach, but I know that if they went back to the drawing board, I probably wouldn't ever see service. Do you honestly believe it would ever happen in a reasonable amount of time (if at all)?

See above, and the alternative converging--backed by its own numbers--to a point of near-equal bleakness. Is somebody going to be the first make a counter-argument vouching in favor of the monolithic build that is rationally backed and not rooted in pure fear and terror of loss?
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

My argument is pretty rational. I'm not one of those people that thinks that Fall River or New Bedford is "owed" anything. I find the politics involved to be gag inducing. I'm not of the belief that Fall River and New Bedford are going to see waves and waves of new tourists. I'm not one of the people that thinks commuter rail will be the salvation for two economically depressed cities.

Nobody on this site is going to be able to match you in terms of data and numbers for this project or any other transit project in the commonwealth. However, it doesn't make the argument irrational. I'm (mostly) not debating any numbers. The only numbers I'd even are the projected ridership numbers. I think it'll be higher. I don't have "data" to back it up because the service hasn't even begun. You can cite the estimate, but it's just that, an estimate. And MassDOT isn't exactly infallible when it comes to ridership projections. They've missed the mark in that area before (see: Middleborough/Lakeville). So while my "experience" isn't the data you want, it's not "rooted in pure fear and terror of loss." It's insight from a guy who lives in the area and deals with that commute regularly.

Like I said before, I don't disagree with most of what you've said. Neither of us have much faith in the state's ability efficiently restructure the project (phased) or fix the monolith later on. We both agree that if it's scrapped and redrawn in a phased approach, it'll be a very long time before trains start rolling (if they ever do). If you're looking for rationale behind that theory, it's based on precedent. None of the hurdles the current proposal has faced are going away. A new proposal has to go through the same process and it's extremely lengthy. I don't have a number for you, but that doesn't mean it's not a rational or logical concern.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Regarding ridership predictions, the state is more likely to err on the high side -- like with Greenbush -- because of the service characteristics that we are pointing out. Low frequency, long trip times, do not make for an attractive service. And there's no support for reverse commute, so half the paid-for $2 billion capacity is sacrificed upfront.
 

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