Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

[TheRatmeister]

and who knows if Phase II is even still happening at this point

I think deep down we all know.

 

[themissinglink]

I think deep down we all know.

Yeah, I don't expect to see Phase II actually happen. But I didn't want to definitively say "it's not gonna happen" in an absolutist way since there's always a small chance of it happening...

But it does suck that Phase II probably won't happen. Even though it would be outrageously expensive, Phase II would result in significantly shorter travel times and much better frequencies. Plus the other station in Taunton (on Dean Street) would be so much better than East Taunton, which is far from downtown Taunton and exclusively a park-and-ride station.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

It really sucks that Battleship Cove station was postponed to Phase II, and who knows if Phase II is even still happening at this point. I know Battleship Cove wasn't projected to be a high-ridership station, but it still would've been a nice terminus since it's so close to Downtown Fall River (compared to Fall River Depot).

Battleship Cove station should be built regardless of whether or not Phase II is happening.

The 2013 FEIR for Phase II predicted 240 daily boardings at Battleship Cove vs. 840 at Fall River Depot, or about 28% of FR Depot's ridership. That was third-worst on the line after Easton Village (150) and Freetown (180). The 2018 FEIR for Phase I reduced the Fall River Depot boardings to 390, while Freetown's went down to 60. Assuming 28% of FR Depot's ridership, Battleship Cove under Phase I would board 109. Assuming the 133% of Freetown's boardings (the Phase II ratio), Battleship Cove would board 78.

It's not going to be worth doing for pathetic Phase I frequencies.

 

[TheRatmeister]

Yeah, I don't expect to see Phase II actually happen. But I didn't want to definitively say "it's not gonna happen" in an absolutist way since there's always a small chance of it happening...

But it does suck that Phase II probably won't happen. Even though it would be outrageously expensive, Phase II would result in significantly shorter travel times and much better frequencies. Plus the other station in Taunton (on Dean Street) would be so much better than East Taunton, which is far from downtown Taunton and exclusively a park-and-ride station.

Never say never of course, but I think we can reasonably say with very high certainty that basically no matter what at this point any opening would probably be around 2040 or later, so for any time period really worth talking about and experiencing as a person rather than a transit enthusiast, it's not happening.

 

[eber]

There's a YouTube railfan who's been documenting the progress on the restoration of the Newport Railway between the transit center and Pell Bridge alongside rail-with-trail. They have I think a 40-tonner and 2 RDCs already there and operational. If they had funding they could probably easily run an island shuttle every like 30min

Is it this guy? Holy cow this is quite the playlist for 5 months of content. I would really love a Newport Rail Connection. I've tried to get to Newport, RI by public transit and the only time friends or I were able to do it well was with the Providence->Newport ferry in the summer, but you need to take the bus (or shuttle) or an uber to the ferry (30 minute walk from the train station).

 

[bigeman312]

Is it this guy? Holy cow this is quite the playlist for 5 months of content. I would really love a Newport Rail Connection. I've tried to get to Newport, RI by public transit and the only time friends or I were able to do it well was with the Providence->Newport ferry in the summer, but you need to take the bus (or shuttle) or an uber to the ferry (30 minute walk from the train station).

I do the trip to Newport/Middletown from Boston via mass transit regularly.

The fastest way to do it is Amtrak to Providence, walk to Kennedy Plaza, 60 bus to the island.

The most enjoyable way to do it is Amtrak to Providence, bike to the ferry, ferry to Newport.

The cheapest and most frequent trip is Commuter Rail to Providence, walk to Kennedy Plaza, 60 bus to the island.

All are viable. Commuter Rail directly to Newport via Stoughton and Fall River would be way better, though.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

All are viable. Commuter Rail directly to Newport via Stoughton and Fall River would be way better, though.

It's a loooong schedule. The NYNH&H took 2:05 for a Boston-Newport run in 1930. That's well beyond the comfort threshold for Commuter Rail travel. Fall River-Newport alone took 40 minutes, so project that on top of the 75-78 minutes that the Phase II FEIR projected and with fewer stops you're still scraping 2 hours. Ridership's not going to be good at those travel times.

I think Newport is something you trial with a Newport Flyer in-season experiment (though it might require Phase II because of limited capacity). Do an express run to Fall River, then an extension on 30 MPH unsignaled track from FR Depot to Newport. It's going to have to prove its bona fides the same way the Cape has.

 

[thepixelnation]

It's a loooong schedule. The NYNH&H took 2:05 for a Boston-Newport run in 1930. That's well beyond the comfort threshold for Commuter Rail travel. Fall River-Newport alone took 40 minutes, so project that on top of the 75-78 minutes that the Phase II FEIR projected and with fewer stops you're still scraping 2 hours. Ridership's not going to be good at those travel times.

Yeah I think having a Newport-Fall River route, connection at a Fall River/Battleship Cove station that connects to Boston would probably make the most sense.

 

[riptide]

It's a loooong schedule. The NYNH&H took 2:05 for a Boston-Newport run in 1930. That's well beyond the comfort threshold for Commuter Rail travel. Fall River-Newport alone took 40 minutes, so project that on top of the 75-78 minutes that the Phase II FEIR projected and with fewer stops you're still scraping 2 hours. Ridership's not going to be good at those travel times.

I think Newport is something you trial with a Newport Flyer in-season experiment (though it might require Phase II because of limited capacity). Do an express run to Fall River, then an extension on 30 MPH unsignaled track from FR Depot to Newport. It's going to have to prove its bona fides the same way the Cape has.

The study I mentioned a few posts ago, the
2002 Aquidneck Island Rail Study, estimated the Newport-Fall River segment would take about 30 minutes with 5 intermediate stops. It was assuming track would be maintained to Class 3/60mph standards, and diesel rolling stock would be used. In a SCR Phase II world, that would probably work out somewhere around 1:45 each way once you bake in the transfer at Fall River. Ridership projections from that era (p.42-43) were in the range of 144,000-165,000 annually for all trips within that Newport-Fall River corridor. Weekday trips to/from Boston were estimated at 154.

Makes sense to begin as a Newport Flyer summer service. The 2002 study projected 576 daily visitor trips through the corridor on weekends, which would probably push a little higher if you removed the cross-platform transfer penalty and ran a train straight from Boston.

 

[kmp1284]

Makes sense to begin as a Newport Flyer summer service. The 2002 study projected 576 daily visitor trips through the corridor on weekends, which would probably push a little higher if you removed the cross-platform transfer penalty and ran a train straight from Boston.

The last thing anyone who actually lives in or visits Newport regularly wants is more day trippers waddling up and down the sidewalks debating between the t-shirt or the refrigerator magnet to commemorate their visit.

 

[riptide]

The last thing anyone who actually lives in or visits Newport regularly wants is more day trippers waddling up and down the sidewalks debating between the t-shirt or the refrigerator magnet to commemorate their visit.

On peak weekends, Newport's daytime population can climb as high as 100,000, at least according to this article. Would 576 more day-trippers really be so noticeable in comparison? If anything, you'd be more likely notice parking spaces aren't quite as hard to come by. The more Boston-area travelers that choose to take the train and avoid the hassle and expense of parking, the better Newport will be able to handle the usual crowds.

 

[kmp1284]

On peak weekends, Newport's daytime population can climb as high as 100,000, at least according to this article. Would 576 more day-trippers really be so noticeable in comparison? If anything, you'd be more likely notice parking spaces aren't quite as hard to come by. The more Boston-area travelers that choose to take the train and avoid the hassle and expense of parking, the better Newport will be able to handle the usual crowds.

Probably not but what they suffer with now is far more than the place can handle and it makes it both a less attractive place to live and to spend time for anyone acquainted with how much better it used to be. It’s one of those places that could be so much nicer if it was a lot harder to get to.

 

[KCasiglio]

Probably not but what they suffer with now is far more than the place can handle and it makes it both a less attractive place to live and to spend time for anyone acquainted with how much better it used to be. It’s one of those places that could be so much nicer if it was a lot harder to get to.

This is the type of stuff I would often hear when I worked in southeast CT and what it always seems to really be about is parking and traffic, not people.

 

[kmp1284]

This is the type of stuff I would often hear when I worked in southeast CT and what it always seems to really be about is parking and traffic, not people.

I haven’t driven into Newport in season in probably five years and I haven’t parked in a commercial lot or on the street for at least ten. It’s about the overcrowding and the rapidly diminishing character of the town.

 

[KCasiglio]

I haven’t driven into Newport in season in probably five years and I haven’t parked in a commercial lot or on the street for at least ten. It’s about the overcrowding and the rapidly diminishing character of the town.

But WHY does it feel overcrowded and changed in character? Is it actually the number of people? Its population is about 50% of its peak. It's not like Newport wasn't a tourist destination in the 1960s. What's changed is how much of the surface area has been given over to parking and wide roads. Take a look at the urban fabric of Newport in 1963 versus today. The same amount of people are being crammed into smaller spaces.

It's the exact same complaint in Mystic, Groton City, and Niantic.

 

[kmp1284]

But WHY does it feel overcrowded and changed in character? Is it actually the number of people? Its population is about 50% of its peak. It's not like Newport wasn't a tourist destination in the 1960s. What's changed is how much of the surface area has been given over to parking and wide roads. Take a look at the urban fabric of Newport in 1963 versus today. The same amount of people are being crammed into smaller spaces.

It's the exact same complaint in Mystic, Groton City, and Niantic.

Have you ever actually been there? You come across as living under a rock and just having an agenda.

 

[kdmc]

I haven’t driven into Newport in season in probably five years and I haven’t parked in a commercial lot or on the street for at least ten. It’s about the overcrowding and the rapidly diminishing character of the town.

Downtown Boston also gets an absurd number of visitors every day. Downtown has far more visitors than it does permanent residents. People visit awesome places, it's a fact of life--the only way to stop them is to make the place less awesome. It's better to capitalize on the tourism and buiId infra to manage it than to kneecap yourself in order to drive it away.

Boston would probably hate tourists too if they didn't mostly navigate the city by train and by foot.

 

[malabari]

For Newport, I dont think people drive around once they get there, the shuttle service is pretty nice, and free during summer.

 

[KCasiglio]

Have you ever actually been there? You come across as living under a rock and just having an agenda.

Several times, yes. If you're done with the ad-hominin I'd be interested in why you think I'm incorrect. The population of Newport has dramatically shrunk. The percentage of surface area taken away from the use of people dedicated to the movement and storage of vehicles has dramatically increased. In as much as I "have an agenda" it's Newport being a lovely place to live and visit in 2024. It's certainly not declaring an arbitrary point in time to be the town's character that needs to be locked in amber. You bemoan how Newport has changed in the past 30 years as if the change is any less than that over the 30 years prior.

 

[DBM]

Have you ever actually been there? You come across as living under a rock and just having an agenda.

I have been there many many times. In terms of its "character"--pick your poison. You know what Newport's "character" was for many years after Nixon relocated the North Atlantic Fleet from there in 1973?

Stagnation. Decay. Despair. Desolation. Emptiness. As the NYT reported:

Rhode Island will also suffer the loss of 21,000 jobs, including 17,300 military personnel, as the Navy closes down the naval station at Newport and the Naval air station at Quonset.

In 1977, the unemployment rate in the area was still as high as 30% as a result, per the Washington Post.

30%!! That's Great Depression-level misery.

Regional economic development planners and business/political leaders saw tourism as the only way out, so that's what they pursued.

Anyway, obviously some of the tourism experience there is tacky, obnoxious, etc.--but that's overwhelmingly clustered along the Thames St. corridor. The Bellevue Ave. mansions, the vineyards, Fort Adams, Audrain Auto Museum, all the non-Thames St. restaurants, etc.--all quite lovely still from my experience... it's really misleading to portray Newport's overall tourism scene as monolithically overwhelming/awful/depressing...