General Boston Discussion

Here it is: https://www.bisnow.com/boston/news/...-saw-largest-drop-globally-report-says-123038
"MSCI: Boston CBD Sees Largest Drop In Commercial Property Prices Of Any Global City"

Well, I'm blocked by a paywall, but I doubt it's relevant, as the part that's visible provides the dead giveaway:

"property prices in Boston's central business district in the fourth quarter [of 2023] were down 30.4% year-over-year."

So, they compared the, what? two-or-three sales in 2022 to the two-or-three sales in 2023, in Boston's CBD, and thus, presto! came up with that 30.4% figure.

Which you know is absolute garbage, because it's totally distorted by the laughably small sample size.

Come back to us when you have a report, not blocked by a paywall, that credibly backs up your assertion, I say.
 
Well, I'm blocked by a paywall, but I doubt it's relevant, as the part that's visible provides the dead giveaway:

"property prices in Boston's central business district in the fourth quarter [of 2023] were down 30.4% year-over-year."

So, they compared the, what? two-or-three sales in 2022 to the two-or-three sales in 2023, in Boston's CBD, and thus, presto! came up with that 30.4% figure.

Which you know is absolute garbage, because it's totally distorted by the laughably small sample size.

Come back to us when you have a report, not blocked by a paywall, that credibly backs up your assertion, I say.

I don't know the methodology and I don't know that it's "absolute garbage." I provided the link you requested and now you're moving the goalposts. Maybe somebody has a subscription and can post the full article.
Here's the blocked version again for reference since this went onto a new page:
https://www.bisnow.com/boston/news/...-saw-largest-drop-globally-report-says-123038

Here's the report link itself, except I'm unable to download it because I don't work for an appropriate industry to sign up. Do you, or does anybody else, who could download and share this report with the forum?
 
Boston Harbor was in minor flood stage (12.5-14 ft tidal height) for two hours this morning, from about 7:00 to 9:00, peaking at 13.33 ft.

For perspective, this was the 29th highest crest recorded in Boston Harbor history.

While not unprecedented, this level of flooding is notable and not something that happens every month. The last tide this high was on January 13 when a storm brought a crest of 14.41 ft.

Today marks the third time Boston Harbor has reached flood stage this year after reaching that level four times last year and six times in 2022.

Looking at the bigger picture, Boston Harbor reaches flood stage much more often than in decades past. To demonstrate this fact, here are the number of times Boston Harbor has reached flood stage per decade, on record:

  • 2020s: 25*
  • 2010s: 21
  • 2000s: 11
  • 1990s: 10
  • 1980s: 7
* through less than 4.5 years!

What was a once-a-year flood in the 1980-2009 period has become a six-times-a-year flood now.
 
I personally don't think the "will rich people flee" is the operative question. It's more about whether or not Mass leadership has blown a hole in the budget due to fiscal mismanagement and bad policy. Tax cuts necessarily reduce tax revenue, especially in the short term, so it's not surprising that immediately after such cuts revenues dip (compounded by all the other things discussed above). I wanted to simply point out a major variable that wasn't discussed previously, which is a billion dollars in reduced taxes for average Bay Staters. This seems good! You started your first post by saying you were never more hopeless about this state and country than you are now. It seems a modest reduction in tax receipts is a bit much to elicit such a response.

Look forward to checking back in mid-year.
Studies generally show folks move from high tax states to low tax states and tax increases don’t generate the income that politicians hope. https://studyfinds.org/tax-the-rich-theyll-just-leave/

Also, rich folks that have connections here probably keep their home for a few years after relocating so home sales won’t immediately reflect this movement.
 
I don't know the methodology and I don't know that it's "absolute garbage." I provided the link you requested and now you're moving the goalposts. Maybe somebody has a subscription and can post the full article.
Here's the blocked version again for reference since this went onto a new page:
https://www.bisnow.com/boston/news/...-saw-largest-drop-globally-report-says-123038

Here's the report link itself, except I'm unable to download it because I don't work for an appropriate industry to sign up. Do you, or does anybody else, who could download and share this report with the forum?

I'm not moving the goalposts; I'm merely pointing out what is point-blank obvious: that any study claiming that there has been a meaningful drop in property prices since March 2020 is full of crap, given that there have essentially been zero sales. Prices can't drop without price discovery, which there has essentially been zero of.

That figure of 30.8% is basically premised on, in essence, two properties that last sold at $100 million, now having sold for 70$ million, or some such similar proportion. This, in a CBD hosting tens and tens of billions of dollars in commercial valuation. It's a drop in the bucket, and who cares that Boston ended up at the bottom of the list when there's such a ridiculous lack of data points?
 
Studies generally show folks move from high tax states to low tax states and tax increases don’t generate the income that politicians hope. https://studyfinds.org/tax-the-rich-theyll-just-leave/

Also, rich folks that have connections here probably keep their home for a few years after relocating so home sales won’t immediately reflect this movement.

Many of the "rich" folks who work here are still wage-earning people with normal-ish jobs. A family of two big law lawyers is breaking that $1M threshold and probably not absconding to Rhode Island to avoid paying marginally higher taxes. As always, cities succeed when they're dynamic, diversified, livable, and have cultural and lifestyle draws. Boston is very much that, and while surely there will be people griping about a new tax, the lack of affordable housing is going to be a bigger push for so many lower earners or young people who can't get a foothold. There's a reason Mass is consistently one of the highest median household income states.
 
A family of two big law lawyers is breaking that $1M threshold and probably not absconding to Rhode Island to avoid paying marginally higher taxes....

If they're making $1.1 million and only paying extra taxes on the $100k then it wouldn't affect them much, as the total taxes would go from $55k to $59k. If they're making $11 million and paying extra taxes on the $10 million it's a completely different calculation. It seems to at least logically make sense that the further over that $1 million somebody earns, the more likely they would be to leave due to that tax.

For instance, if you make $11 million then under the old way you were paying 5% on the first million for $50k, and 5% on the next $10 million for $500k, so $550k total. Now under the new way it becomes 9% on that next $10 million, so the total collections would go from $550k up to $950k, a $400k increase. So this very rich person, who thought $550k was acceptable because they like living in this area, is now comparing $950k to a state like Texas or Florida with $0 state income tax. You can say "well the person is already super rich" but most of them aren't getting that way without being greedy. That's almost another million in the pocket of the person in this example, and remember they're already paying a higher federal tax rate on top of that so not like they're pocketing the other $10 million. So instead of getting $550k in taxes from one very rich person, Massachusetts pushes its luck too far and ends up with $0.

The thing about the super rich is that even if they're paying 50x the taxes as an ordinary person, they're not using 50 times the schools, 50 times the bridges, 50 times the police, etc. We shouldn't bend over backwards for the rich, but there's a happy medium so we can stay prosperous and fund a lot of programs in this state. We have most likely swung too far to the other side of this happy medium.

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Also, using an admittedly basic set of assumptions, I worked out the math for how damaging this could be. Lets start with the assumption that the "average" person hit with the millionaires tax makes $2 million. Obviously most of them will make less and a few will make more, even much more, but it seems reasonable and is easy to calculate. So under the old way they'd pay 5% on the first million and 5% on the second, meaning $100k total in taxes. Under the new way it's 5% on the first and 9% on the second, meaning $140k total in taxes.

So the new tax gives a $40k additional benefit for each of the "average" millionaires at this $2 million mark. But what that also means is that when one of these people leaves, Massachusetts is now $100k in the hole from where they would have been under the old rate. So then the next 2.5 people paying the $40k additional taxes are required just to offset the 1 person who left.

That calculation means that if 29% of the above people left the state, we'd be in the net negative since it would require 72.5% (of the original millionaire population) to offset that, and only 71% would be remaining. That's net negative purely on the income tax, and doesn't even include things like I posted above about Massachusetts falling 12 spots in the "business tax friendliness" climate, which becomes an additional loss. So it really doesn't take that many of them leaving to start causing serious budget issues, which happen to be what the state is experiencing right now.
 
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Many of the "rich" folks who work here are still wage-earning people with normal-ish jobs. A family of two big law lawyers is breaking that $1M threshold and probably not absconding to Rhode Island to avoid paying marginally higher taxes. As always, cities succeed when they're dynamic, diversified, livable, and have cultural and lifestyle draws. Boston is very much that, and while surely there will be people griping about a new tax, the lack of affordable housing is going to be a bigger push for so many lower earners or young people who can't get a foothold. There's a reason Mass is consistently one of the highest median household income states.
I grew up in the Boston suburbs and as a partner in a big law firm in Boston with a national and international practice that mostly travels for work and WFH the other days, I’m a few weeks out from closing on my new Florida home. We will keep the house here for the summers for a couple years. So glad you picked that example and I’m proving I’m leaving.
 
And I’m thrilled your single anecdote is just that. As someone who is quite similar to you in many ways you’re one of the very few I’ve met who is leaving the big east coast city where you’re “based”.

Hope you enjoy Florida, and in a few years we’ll see how the Mass demographics shake out. I still maintain that the biggest push for any population decline here and other high cost of living states (CA, WA, NY) remains a failure to provide a reasonable cost of living for the middle class and below.
 
And I’m thrilled your single anecdote is just that. As someone who is quite similar to you in many ways you’re one of the very few I’ve met who is leaving the big east coast city where you’re “based”.

Hope you enjoy Florida, and in a few years we’ll see how the Mass demographics shake out. I still maintain that the biggest push for any population decline here and other high cost of living states (CA, WA, NY) remains a failure to provide a reasonable cost of living for the middle class and below.
The Democrats our so called elected leaders in this state are giving billion dollar corporations 75% tax abatements to convert there commercial real estate into residential real estate most likely to create subsidized housing which will also be paid by the taxpayers. How does this make any logical sense to the American Taxpayer when the average taxpayer barely can afford to live near Boston?

"As a new migrant shelter is set to open in Boston's Fort Point neighborhood, House Democrats voted Wednesday to steer another $245 million toward the overwhelmed emergency family shelter system while capping how long people can receive its services, along the way rejecting a Republican proposal to limit program eligibility."

Does anybody realize that migrants are actually illegal Aliens according to our laws?

This is criminal at this point.
 
Again, the city of Boston is running this conversion program and incentives are for city taxes. It has nothing to do with Americans generally or the Mass shelter system. Furthermore, the converted buildings requires 17% affordable units, so one in six newly created units will, by definition, be affordable. I think we’re up to 6 total applications with 200-300 total new units in scope. Glad we can incentive the creation of a few dozen affordable housing units where subprime office space used to be.

Do you live in Boston? Vote for your preferred mayoral candidate! This is the Boston Discussion thread, not the “how do we change asylum laws so we can now call this illegal immigration” thread.
 
I had the good fortune to grow up in a small Nebraska farm town. (I always say it was like Mayberry R.F.D on the Andy Griffith Show.) My family is still located in Nebraska, Missouri, and Oklahoma..............3 very conservative states. I follow the politics and conversations in those 3 states because it concerns my family. My niece is married to her wife, and they have 3 children being raised in Oklahoma. Yes, things are getting better for them, but they are always THRILLED to come visit me and see how being LGBTQIA+ in New England is no big deal. I know the Greater Boston area is expensive and the weather doesn't always agree with us, BUT I still think it's one of the BEST and most accepting places to live in the USA! Personally, I'll pay a little more to be in a place with progressive social values. Just my opinion, and nothing more.
 
I had the good fortune to grow up in a small Nebraska farm town. (I always say it was like Mayberry R.F.D on the Andy Griffith Show.) My family is still located in Nebraska, Missouri, and Oklahoma..............3 very conservative states. I follow the politics and conversations in those 3 states because it concerns my family. My niece is married to her wife, and they have 3 children being raised in Oklahoma. Yes, things are getting better for them, but they are always THRILLED to come visit me and see how being LGBTQIA+ in New England is no big deal. I know the Greater Boston area is expensive and the weather doesn't always agree with us, BUT I still think it's one of the BEST and most accepting places to live in the USA! Personally, I'll pay a little more to be in a place with progressive social values. Just my opinion, and nothing more.
Boston--- The only two things that matter around this area.
Rich =relevant
Poor =irrelevant

Nobody cares what individuals do with their free lives. Its a free country and you should respect all individuals as long as they don't encroach on your freedoms.

What the Mass Taxpayers should care about is our tax dollars and were the capital is being funneled. Using tax dollars drives up costs, raises taxes and encroaches on your financial freedom. This is very bad.

It's time to awaken to this reality. Let's ensure that our taxes are allocated wisely not just for the privileged few.
 
If we'd like to talk about something that actually may have an impact on the region's long term population stability:


tl;dr - about 10,000 fewer students expected in the Boston region each year. I don't have the figures on hand for what percentage of students typically sticks around the area but it's not hard to see how any damage to that pipeline of expected high earners softening up is troubling for the long term. I'm not as worried as the author about the importance of smaller, expensive liberal arts colleges to their communities. By all means convert my alma mater (Lesley) to good development and Cambridge might be better off for it.
 
If we'd like to talk about something that actually may have an impact on the region's long term population stability:


tl;dr - about 10,000 fewer students expected in the Boston region each year. I don't have the figures on hand for what percentage of students typically sticks around the area but it's not hard to see how any damage to that pipeline of expected high earners softening up is troubling for the long term. I'm not as worried as the author about the importance of smaller, expensive liberal arts colleges to their communities. By all means convert my alma mater (Lesley) to good development and Cambridge might be better off for it.
That's not surprising. The national trend is for more young people to go into trades (plumber, mechanic, electrician, pipefitter, carpenter, etc.) rather than college.
 
That's not surprising. The national trend is for more young people to go into trades (plumber, mechanic, electrician, pipefitter, carpenter, etc.) rather than college.
It's that there are less kids. The end of the boomer's generation of kids are finishing up college and high school currently.


I brought this up before on here and was dismissed as there's this perception the Boston schools are too good and are immune from be a drop in the number of kids going to college. I still think it's an issue, and the responsible universities are looking at it seriously. These schools built up their staff and programs for the influx of students the past decade and now that tide is ending... Schools that went into that tide at a lower standing than they are now (Northeastern) will probably weather okay - their ranking may be enough to keep attracting students (likely a wider range of students), but other schools are going to have some pretty difficult decisions to make.

It helps on the housing front but for a city with so many colleges, large and small, it will likely have adverse effects elsewhere.
 
That's not surprising. The national trend is for more young people to go into trades (plumber, mechanic, electrician, pipefitter, carpenter, etc.) rather than college.
Most Americans cannot afford to be in debt 100's of thousands of dollars and not be guarantee a job in the future.
Academia main goal was to improve humanity through science/innovation.

Not sure when the Academia institutions thought it was good idea to drag the American public in such deep debt for 4- year degrees for general studies.
The reality is such debt can cause depression and servitude to a 9-5 job which keeps humanity from actually taking risks with expression and creativity.

Not sure what our educational institutions are teaching our children these days but Basic Finance 101 would be a good start.
 
A lot of Boston doom and gloom in this thread - JLL disagrees. From its 2024 Innovation Geographies report:

1. Boston ranks 3rd in the world (behind the Bay Area and San Diego) in number of patents generated per capita;
2. Boston ranks 4th in the world in innovation output (behind the Bay Area, Tokyo, and Seoul)
3. Boston ranks 3rd in the world in talent concentration (behind the Bay Area and Beijing)

We have a lot of problems here, chief among them the high cost of living. But let's not lose sight of this area's enormous strengths and the fact that people all over the world want to be here and invest here.
 
A lot of Boston doom and gloom in this thread - JLL disagrees. From its 2024 Innovation Geographies report:

1. Boston ranks 3rd in the world (behind the Bay Area and San Diego) in number of patents generated per capita;
2. Boston ranks 4th in the world in innovation output (behind the Bay Area, Tokyo, and Seoul)
3. Boston ranks 3rd in the world in talent concentration (behind the Bay Area and Beijing)

We have a lot of problems here, chief among them the high cost of living. But let's not lose sight of this area's enormous strengths and the fact that people all over the world want to be here and invest here.
Fantastic summary. Plus, we have beautiful mountains and forests to our north and west, plus fantastic beaches and islands for the entire coast. You can take a train from Boston to go skiing in the winter (Wachusett) and take the boat for summer beaches and nightlife. (Provincetown) We have an amazing food scene and tons of cultural options that places in the Midwest can only dream about.
 

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