General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

Aug 19 to Sept 18 - official dates are out for the shutdown.

We're fortunate that the two ends of the OL run parallel to CR trains that pull into Back Bay and North Station, with the Green Line providing train service through the core. The NEC is probably running at capacity but is there any room on the north side up to Melrose to run additional smaller short-turn trainsets? Like if we already had 15-min urban rail frequencies from Forest Hills & Malden Center inbound then we would have a reasonable alternative. But with only shuttle buses, anyone that can afford to drive/uber will do so and I can imagine I-93 and Columbus/Huntington ave being a complete parking lot not only during rush hour but off-peak as well.

Edit: is the GC-North Station shutdown confirmed as well? Good luck anyone on the north side of the city..
 
Equilibria said:
Ah yes, remember when we had a woman of color with extensive experience running a big city transit agency as GM, and then we dumped her for a series of unqualified mediocre white men the Governor gelled with better? Who could have guessed that would backfire!
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She also publicly identified the T's core issues as being structural rather than operational more than anyone else of similar stature in recent memory.
 
sneijder said:
We're fortunate that the two ends of the OL run parallel to CR trains that pull into Back Bay and North Station, with the Green Line providing train service through the core. The NEC is probably running at capacity but is there any room on the north side up to Melrose to run additional smaller short-turn trainsets? Like if we already had 15-min urban rail frequencies from Forest Hills & Malden Center inbound then we would have a reasonable alternative. But with only shuttle buses, anyone that can afford to drive/uber will do so and I can imagine I-93 and Columbus/Huntington ave being a complete parking lot not only during rush hour but off-peak as well.
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The Western Route is single-track from the Eastern Route junction near Sullivan all the way past Oak Grove, which puts a ceiling on the frequency of moves through there. Someone with better operational knowledge (F-Line?) might be able to tell us if it'd be possible to run a shuttle with those kind of frequencies at all through there. (The single-track problem is actually worse than that, because there's not a ton of crossovers, so if you were actually sending a shuttle up into Melrose it'd have to either wrong-rail from Wyoming to wherever or use the hand-throw crossover at Melrose Highlands, which would slow things down more.) Much as it'd be good if they used the infrastructure they had more to deal with these kind of problems, it's a separate if related problem that the inner Haverhill line isn't set up to run as an Orange Line replacement even as well as it could be.
 
(Actual Crazy transit pitch)
Was Stephanie Pollack actually competent? During her tenure it seemed as though the T was (very) gradually improving. Maybe its rose colored glasses / pandemic brain fog, but it if l recall correctly the MBTA wasn’t lurching from crisis to crisis with major service meltdowns.

Convincing arguments either way that her leadership (in part) sewed the seeds for this current meltdown, or she was able to barely hold together a systemically broken agency with Elmer's glue and bubble gum just enough to avoid complete disaster, a feat her successors weren’t skilled enough to manage.

Since sandbagging major capital projects was listed under the “primary responsibilities” section of her job application, she at least excelled at that.
 
sneijder said:
Aug 19 to Sept 18 - official dates are out for the shutdown.

Edit: is the GC-North Station shutdown confirmed as well? Good luck anyone on the north side of the city..
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As far as I can tell, the T hasn’t announced any new Green Line shutdowns. The E line shutdown overlaps with the first couple days of the Orange Line’s, but that’s about it.
 
^ It is confusing though, because the agenda for the Board of Directors meeting definitely mentioned a Green Line diversion.

Somewhat concerningly, the plan for the shuttle buses apparently only involves running them as far inbound as North Station and Back Bay (presumably running to Copley for the transfer? We might hope?) and then I guess letting people walk or squeeze on to the Green Line? https://www.mbta.com/projects/orange-line-track-and-signal-upgrades-2022

So, yes -- whether or not the Green Line is also being closed is, ah, hmm, rather important here.
 
Riverside said:
^ It is confusing though, because the agenda for the Board of Directors meeting definitely mentioned a Green Line diversion.

Somewhat concerningly, the plan for the shuttle buses apparently only involves running them as far inbound as North Station and Back Bay (presumably running to Copley for the transfer? We might hope?) and then I guess letting people walk or squeeze on to the Green Line? https://www.mbta.com/projects/orange-line-track-and-signal-upgrades-2022

So, yes -- whether or not the Green Line is also being closed is, ah, hmm, rather important here.
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Also, Haymarket is conspicuously absent from the list of suggested alternative Green Line stops (despite them listing literally all of the others GC-Copley/BBY)
 
The Western Route mainline is single track between Reading Jct (Sullivan Square) and Fells Interlocking (Oak Grove). East of Fells is still "251" (or current of traffic) signals. As stated, there are only a few crossovers between there and Reading (Melrose and Wakefield Jct). All hand-throw. And Wakefield Jct has only one set of crossovers. There is a short siding down at Reading Jct called "Foley St", but its not much use. I suppose you could do some shuttles off-peak, but I question whether commuter rail has the equipment and crews to run much beyond the regular schedule. Then there's also capacity issues when they fold in with Eastern Route trains at Reading Jct and platform capacity at North Station.
 
They are still working out the details for the Green Line between North Station and Government Center for the same duration as the Orange Line shutdown for work related to Haymarket Garage and Haymarket Station. It's requiring discussions between the T and the City of Boston, likely as well as Hynes, to finalize this particular shutdown. I think there was a bit of confusion during the press conference over why the T was announcing this today without all of the details, when the T was really trying to get this out ASAP to alert riders ASAP.

Long story short: there are going to be a lot more details soon. Planning a 30-day shutdown comes with a lot of moving parts, and you can't tell the public anything until the parts aren't moving by much anymore.
 
Baker, T officials: Turn that frown upside down, Orange Line riders, because at 5 a.m. on Sept. 19, you're going to get faster, safer, more reliable service

Gov. Baker and MBTA General Manager Steve Poftak announced today that Orange Line service will end at 9 p.m. on Friday, Aug. 19 and will return at 5 a.m. on Sept. 19 with the elimination of slow zones, better signal systems, an almost entirely new fleet of cars and "deep cleaned" stations.
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Some 3,500 feet of track will be entirely replaced, concentrating on areas where trains now shriek their way slowly due to poor track conditions, in particular near Jackson Square, Back Bay, Tufts and Haymarket, he said. He said that once the work is done and regular service has resumed for several days, trains will be able to bound through those stretches at 25 m.p.h. rather than the current restricted 10 m.p.h. Old signals and switches will also be replaced.
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So... like... a month shutdown to replace just over a half mile of track on an 11-mile line which will bump speed restriction to 25 mph when normal speed should be 40 mph? Better signal and switches? Haven't they been installing an entirely brand new switch system for the new rolling stock for a few years now? Are these just replacing old switches with new ones, or is this wrapping up the installation of the entire new system? I mean, hey, at least right they threw in a power washing of the stations, right?

I'm probably overreacting a bit, but for a month (or longer) shutdown I would expect a lot more track work, the entire line brought back up to full speed - hell, I'd rather expect bumping it up to 50 or 60 mph for the new trains, along with the entirely new signal system online and enough new cars to run a full schedule - although the last part there is obviously not going to happen and there isn't much the T can do.

Really sounds like the bare minimum then the line reopens and is slightly faster in places, but still running old rolling stock that tends to self-immolate and breakdown resulting in rather the same old shite for riders. Mind-boggling if that is seriously all they can fit in for a whole month. What happened to all the lessons learned on the Green Line on rapid track replacement and staging?
 
bakgwailo said:
Baker, T officials: Turn that frown upside down, Orange Line riders, because at 5 a.m. on Sept. 19, you're going to get faster, safer, more reliable service





So... like... a month shutdown to replace just over a half mile of track on an 11-mile line which will bump speed restriction to 25 mph when normal speed should be 40 mph? Better signal and switches? Haven't they been installing an entirely brand new switch system for the new rolling stock for a few years now? Are these just replacing old switches with new ones, or is this wrapping up the installation of the entire new system? I mean, hey, at least right they threw in a power washing of the stations, right?

I'm probably overreacting a bit, but for a month (or longer) shutdown I would expect a lot more track work, the entire line brought back up to full speed - hell, I'd rather expect bumping it up to 50 or 60 mph for the new trains, along with the entirely new signal system online and enough new cars to run a full schedule - although the last part there is obviously not going to happen and there isn't much the T can do.

Really sounds like the bare minimum then the line reopens and is slightly faster in places, but still running old rolling stock that tends to self-immolate and breakdown resulting in rather the same old shite for riders. Mind-boggling if that is seriously all they can fit in for a whole month. What happened to all the lessons learned on the Green Line on rapid track replacement and staging?
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Are any of the HRT tracks rated for 50-60mph? Seems like even Red tops out at 40-45mph on the straightaways between kendall/central. Speaking of which, is the same thing going to happen for the Red Line in october? It really is a lose-lose.. if the maintenance isn't as "dire" to require a full shutdown on Red, it really speaks volumes to how the state has neglected the OL which runs through poorer parts of town. If they do need to do a full shutdown, then they better put full-on 24/7 bus lanes onto I-93S..
 
Seems mad to me that they cant wait a month or two till the GLX is open to at least pick up some of the slack in Somerville and Medford.
Also, if there's no dispatchers needed for the OL, does the RL go back to full service?
Deep clean of the stations eh, mind boggling that none of this happened during Covid shut downs.
All this while MA is giving special one off tax rebates because of a budget surplus.
Just sign a new law, and invest that money in the MBTA and other state wide transit systems.
 
sneijder said:
Are any of the HRT tracks rated for 50-60mph? Seems like even Red tops out at 40-45mph on the straightaways between kendall/central. Speaking of which, is the same thing going to happen for the Red Line in october? It really is a lose-lose.. if the maintenance isn't as "dire" to require a full shutdown on Red, it really speaks volumes to how the state has neglected the OL which runs through poorer parts of town. If they do need to do a full shutdown, then they better put full-on 24/7 bus lanes onto I-93S..
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Honestly no idea. I believe the D Line was up to 50 mph (at least once upon a time ago). Honestly no idea even on the feasibility, but for a full 4-6 week shutdown I'd expect something great that actually improves service and not just bumping 10mph restrictions to 25mph restrictions.
 
bakgwailo said:
a month shutdown to replace just over a half mile of track on an 11-mile line which will bump speed restriction to 25 mph when normal speed should be 40 mph
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I noticed that too. If you go back to Sneijder's post back on July 12, the linked MBTA Tweet announced they replaced 500 ft of tracks - FTA mandated tracks, but 500 ft and thus lifted the speed limit back to 25 mph and will be 40 mph "once completed"

Our subsequent comments back then that it was a 6 year slow zone and they fixed it in a day.

But now with a 30 day shutdown, they plan to do 3,500 ft to 25 mph and no mention of 40 mph?

While it's not as simple at 30 days * 500ft a day = 15,000 ft, I want to be able to understand the math. Can someone here explain how it adds up? If it just doesn't, can we get reports or get Transit Matters to get this question asked?
 
There's certainly confusion over what's being replaced. The original month-long shutdown at Wellington was to replace 7,000 feet of track, along with full depth replacement of 4 special track units, 2300 feet of 3rd rail, and 150 feet of duct banks.

Yesterday they were throwing a few numbers around, none of which aligned with the original shutdown numbers, I think because some numbers were covering the FTA-mandated track and others covering potentially the total length of track that may include non-FTA-mandate related work.

... Might be indicative of how chaotic getting something as large in scale as this that this administration has never done before up and ready 2.5 weeks before they start...


Also, replying upthread, it'd be nice to have the signals go in swiftly during this month shutdown, but final design isn't complete until fall as of right now.
 
stefal said:
Also, replying upthread, it'd be nice to have the signals go in swiftly during this month shutdown, but final design isn't complete until fall as of right now.
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Does the new signal system streamline dispatching? As in, when the new system is complete would the T be able to have more trains running per dispatcher? I imagine that fully automated systems would have less of a need for dispatchers, but maybe I just don’t know what exactly the dispatchers do.
 
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