General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

From a logistics of hosting events (namely an event like the upcoming World Cup) and a pure location standpoint, it would have been nice if Gillette were a bit closer to Boston. However, think of how much prime space that the stadium and associated parking lots would have occupied? I don't mind that it's out in the suburbs where it is. Kraft has done a good job building up the area around it which will hopefully continue to have consistent, scheduled commuter rail service year round.

It could be a lot worse, Boston could be like Indianapolis and have its 65k football stadium right in downtown. Then again, Indianapolis is not close to the tourist draw that Boston is and Indy has to rely heavily on sporting events to draw out of state visitors to its city so in that regard, it kind of makes sense to locate it right in the central core.
 
mass88 said:
However, think of how much prime space that the stadium and associated parking lots would have occupied?
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Outside of the US, it seems fairly normal to have nice soccer stadiums right in cities, and they can be good. They're near where people live and near fun city stuff. The main trick is maybe just don't have massive parking lots.

I don't know NFL stadiums so well, so I'm not sure what a good local example would be. Soldier Field in Chicago? Kinda?
 
US Bank Stadium home of the Vikings in Minneapolis is a good example. Built on the site of the former Metrodome, located in the downtown core with minimal open lot parking and light rail access to two lines (the newer one east to St. Paul and the other original one southeast along Highway 55 / Hiawatha Ave to MSP & Mall of America.)

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mass88 said:
Boston could be like Indianapolis and have its 65k football stadium right in downtown. Then again, Indianapolis is not close to the tourist draw that Boston is and Indy has to rely heavily on sporting events to draw out of state visitors to its city so in that regard, it kind of makes sense to locate it right in the central core.
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I don’t know if it’s fair to use Lucas Oil Stadium as canon folder for NFL Stadiums that are located within city cores. Nor would I classify stadiums are “tourist draws.” Fenway? Absolutely a tourist draw. TD Garden? Not so much. It’s a matter of convenience and modern amenities for the fans. The way that most stadiums are designed are very banal in terms of design. So-Fi and Allegiant Stadiums are draw’s because of their sleek designs. Outliers in stadiums that are a dime a dozen in league.
 
Java King said:
Boston got slammed in this video about Sports Venues and Transit Access because of Gillette. Of course, Fenway and TD Garden were outstanding venues near tons of public transportation and integrated into the urban fabric. Gillette, not so much. Gave us #8 out of top 10 list.

(6) Ten Cities That Do Sports Venues the Best (and Some Terrible Ones) - YouTube
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I saw that video too! I had the exact same thought about Foxboro. To the immediate problem… If the commuter rail was electrified, trains would be lighter, faster, cheaper and easier to schedule with less dwell time and shorter headways. NIMBYs would bitch less about the noise and smoke and start planning around them instead of fighting them. The antique thinking and equipment we keep foisting on the burbs is not exactly a selling point.
As for stadiums in town… the Everett spot could work well with NSRL and a Grand Junction light rail conversion connecting to the Orange, Green and Red lines. As much as I would hate to throw bodies and cash near the casino vacuum, it would work.
…Unless we want to drop something near South Bay.
The main point is we would be better off with MBTA service that worked well on game/ event days… especially if the venues were not located in the far-flung car dependent burbs.
 
Slightly off-topic from the above, however, I was going through old photos and wanted to share them here.

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What I find most impressive is the empty land around Station Landing. These were taken in November 2002.
 
Java King said:
Boston got slammed in this video about Sports Venues and Transit Access because of Gillette. Of course, Fenway and TD Garden were outstanding venues near tons of public transportation and integrated into the urban fabric. Gillette, not so much. Gave us #8 out of top 10 list.

(6) Ten Cities That Do Sports Venues the Best (and Some Terrible Ones) - YouTube
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It's kind of a suspect list, because he gives weight to football stadiums, even though he considers them to be anti-urbanist. I'm glad Gillete is nowhere near Boston, it would be terrible land use for the region's dense core. On separate posts about baseball parks and hockey/basketball arenas, CityNerd ranks Fenway as most urban, and the Garden as 2nd most urban. I'll take first and second in the two types of venues that make sense for urban areas.
 
In an alternate timeline, our football stadium would have occupied the Waterfront/Seaport or something like that. I'm glad it's not.

(Thinking about that, would that timeline would have forced MA to build the Silver Line as proper light rail? That's a thought)

What should happen is Gillette get a real rail connection and make that area urban.
 
ant8904 said:
In an alternate timeline, our football stadium would have occupied the Waterfront/Seaport or something like that. I'm glad it's not.

(Thinking about that, would that timeline would have forced MA to build the Silver Line as proper light rail? That's a thought)

What should happen is Gillette get a real rail connection and make that area urban.
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We should talk
 
fatnoah said:
Totally agree. Such stadiums should be in less dense regions due to their size and need to support such things as tailgating. There definitely should be good transit options, too, though.
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ant8904 said:
What should happen is Gillette get a real rail connection and make that area urban.
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In theory, Gillette could have a great rail connection. Under a full RUR schedule, with the required track improvements, electrification, and platform upgrades, there would be a reasonably fast and frequent connection between Gillette and downtown. I have to think that under such a scenario, the Krafts, being the smart businessmen that they are, would build out the parking lots for TOD housing and commerce. You'd get a sort of football themed urban amusements and lifestyle satellite to Boston proper.
 
HenryAlan said:
In theory, Gillette could have a great rail connection. Under a full RUR schedule, with the required track improvements, electrification, and platform upgrades, there would be a reasonably fast and frequent connection between Gillette and downtown. I have to think that under such a scenario, the Krafts, being the smart businessmen that they are, would build out the parking lots for TOD housing and commerce. You'd get a sort of football themed urban amusements and lifestyle satellite to Boston proper.
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right.. to be fair, they did build the stadium right next to a Rail ROW.. imagine a 25-min electric train to back bay running every half hour..

The real misfire was building Xfinity Center just far away from the commuter rail that everyone has to drive drunk just to make it home.
 
sneijder said:
right.. to be fair, they did build the stadium right next to a Rail ROW.. imagine a 25-min electric train to back bay running every half hour..

The real misfire was building Xfinity Center just far away from the commuter rail that everyone has to drive drunk just to make it home.
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Oh my gosh,

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Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
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Massachusetts is actually this bad to have such a venue look like this in the middle of nothing?

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Xfinity Center is a fine venue in itself, but a nightmare to get to and a worse one to get out of. When I used to go to concerts there (back when it was still Great Woods), I found that the only way to avoid sitting in the traffic jam of everyone exiting for a full hour was to get over towards the exit during the encore, then sprint like hell for the car as soon as the house lights go up.
And it's theoretically a 15-minute bike ride from Mansfield commuter rail, but the last inbound train is at 10:44, so if the show runs past 10:30 you're SOL.
 
I was just at the Xfinity Center this Sunday for the Curry College graduation. The traffic departing wasn't too bad although it wasn't a concert. That being said, I support much better train service to Gillette and some kind of transportation option to Xfinity Center. As @sneijder commented, 30-minute headways, electric rail service to Gillette would be fantastic!
 
I guess I'm sort of confused how the Gillette area would blossom with TOD if only they had trains every 30 minutes...it's still 23 miles to Boston and, more importantly, they'd still need a ton of parking because people go there from all over New England to get to games, not just along the Franklin Line. And structured parking is obviously significantly more expensive than surface lots.

Many of these people are wealthy and drive in from low-density areas, including New Hampshire and Maine; they're not going to go into Boston / PVD / rte 128 and then take a train out. Kind of the same reason Logan only has a ~13% transit access modeshare, with the majority of that on express buses and not the BL / SL -- people are coming from far out and they skew wealthy.

Maybe there would be some residential by the train station with good service, like there is at Mansfield or Canton but I strongly doubt we'd ever get real urbanity there -- it's going to have a sea of parking forever.
 
Delvin4519 said:
Oh my gosh,

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
www.google.com

Massachusetts is actually this bad to have such a venue look like this in the middle of nothing?

View attachment 38265
View attachment 38266
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My summer gig involves working load in/load out for Live Nation (IATSE #11). The venue itself is so depressing and so many missed opportunities for a Commuter Rail station and TOD. The people that I work with are fine. The concerts are a blast. The venue is just…bleh. Definitely missed opportunities. Maybe some more hotels in and around the 140/495 interchange. Beyond that, TOD around that part of Mansfield will be met with NIMBY blowback.
 
Delvin4519 said:
Oh my gosh,

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
www.google.com

Massachusetts is actually this bad to have such a venue look like this in the middle of nothing?
Click to expand...

Large outdoor amphitheaters tend to be built in the middle of nothing and not near transit - often not even great road infrastructure. Noise complaints are I think a big factor. You really don't want to have much of anything in the direction of the speakers for a mile or so. Pretty sure it's sited there in part because there's a mile of woods to the next property in the direction the speakers face.

They also tend to be basically unused for 6-8 months a year in our region, so I feel like the draw of being near the venue for other development is somewhat low.

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I actually can't think of many large ones that *are* accessible by transit in the Northeast.

Pretty much all the big names are a no. Xfinity Theater (Hartford), Jones Beach, PNC Arts Center (NJ), Meadowbrook (NH), Saratoga, etc - no.

I think Philadelphia-area is the only place that pulls this off in the region - Mann Center + the Pavilion across the river in Camden are both entirely viable to get to by transit.
 
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