Green Line extension Newton to Needham

themissinglink said:
Public transportation is also super popular. This doesn't need to be an either/or problem; there are countless examples of pedestrian/cycling infrastructure coexisting with a rail line.
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I've never heard this to be a common thing aside from advocacy organizations in the Boston area. I need a source for this that states this as popular opnion. Example: if everyone who went out to the polls in 2023 or 2024, and one coul ask all of them if they supported public transportation, what % would they get for yes?
 
themissinglink said:
Public transportation is also super popular. This doesn't need to be an either/or problem; there are countless examples of pedestrian/cycling infrastructure coexisting with a rail line.
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And we have some very good examples right on the MBTA system, that can illustrate how well it works for any discussions about a Needham GLX.
 
Delvin4519 said:
I've never heard this to be a common thing aside from advocacy organizations in the Boston area. I need a source for this that states this as popular opnion. Example: if everyone who went out to the polls in 2023 or 2024, and one coul ask all of them if they supported public transportation, what % would they get for yes?
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Mixed bag from election results. The 2014 referendum on indexing the gas tax lost, but the "Millionaire's Tax" won, with both intended to fund the MBTA.

It's not a question of whether the path works next to the train - I'm sure it does. It's that the Greenway is a quiet gravel path through the (relatively recent, not very pretty) woods, and I think that if you took NUF residents to the new GLX Community Path and said you'd do something like that, they'd reject it flat-out. The Community Path is narrow and seems designed for speeding bikes with its double yellow line.

The nicer rail trails in the system - the Community Path through Davis and the Minuteman - don't share ROW with surface rail.
 
To quote Spock, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I have personally observed that path on several occasions and never saw more than 50-60 users per hour
 
Delvin4519 said:
I've never heard this to be a common thing aside from advocacy organizations in the Boston area. I need a source for this that states this as popular opnion. Example: if everyone who went out to the polls in 2023 or 2024, and one coul ask all of them if they supported public transportation, what % would they get for yes?
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It probably wouldn’t be very high as the loss of a direct South Station connection for Needham residents would be unpopular, even if it ends up being better for most commuters.
 
Tallguy said:
To quote Spock, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I have personally observed that path on several occasions and never saw more than 50-60 users per hour
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Especially if there was still room in the ROW for the path, meaning those 50-60 users per hour and still use it if they want. Good example of why the state should just never allow rail trails - its a railroad ROW that has been land-banked first and foremost, and the understanding should be it can always be reactivated if needed.
 
bakgwailo said:
Especially if there was still room in the ROW for the path, meaning those 50-60 users per hour and still use it if they want. Good example of why the state should just never allow rail trails - its a railroad ROW that has been land-banked first and foremost, and the understanding should be it can always be reactivated if needed.
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The trail advocates immediately forget that the situation is supposed to be temporary. Frosts my butt
 
CheapLeak said:
It probably wouldn’t be very high as the loss of a direct South Station connection for Needham residents would be unpopular, even if it ends up being better for most commuters.
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I suspect most riders use South Station as a means to get into the rest of the rapid transit system or to walk to the Financial District, in which case it can probably be done just as effectively with a Green Line branch that has vastly better turn-up-and-go headways.

For people specifically looking for South Station (other Commuter Rail connections, Silver Line, etc), they always have the option of Green-Red.

Today, South Station to Needham Heights takes 45 minutes. South Station to Riverside (similar in length to Needham) takes 52 minutes, and eliminating slow zones on the D will make it even faster. Comparable enough to me given the big differences in headways (Needham Line runs once every hour).
 
jklo said:
No. Probably won't get serious attention until there's a need to get rid of something to free up room at South Station.
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I'd argue that East-West may be a contender for calls to free up room at South Station. If not, electrification and adding more frequent Regional Rail service (especially Fairmount and NEC) definitely will be.

Aside from those necessity conditions, GLX to Needham and OLX to West Roxbury is also one of the most cost-effective rapid transit expansion projects across the whole system, so I can see arguments for doing it without being a prerequisite of something else. But such a scenario will probably only happen after BLX to Lynn (another much needed project with much stronger political will), which itself will only come after Red-Blue.

And this is all assuming the T and the state are willing to work on more expansion projects, which is not a guarantee especially given comments from MassDOT secretary earlier.
 
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Stlin said:
Or OLX to West Roxbury gets serious, but it's even money on what will tip it over the edge.
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OLX+1 seems to be getting more support. My money would be on that as a top 3 candidate after B-R if there's more political interest in rail expansion. I'm not sure how much more expensive it would be to go to West Roxbury instead of Roslindale though.
 
737900er said:
OLX+1 seems to be getting more support. My money would be on that as a top 3 candidate after B-R if there's more political interest in rail expansion. I'm not sure how much more expensive it would be to go to West Roxbury instead of Roslindale though.
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My understanding is that OLX can go as far as Roslindale Village while still retaining Needham Line service, but any further and it necessitates property taking and/or suspension of Needham Line service.

If my understanding is correct, we'd likely see Orange to Roslindale Village be advocated for first, as a much lower hanging fruit than West Roxbury, unless the Needham Line was already on the chopping block.

In terms of top-three rapid transit extension candidates after Blue to Chalres/MGH, I agree. I'd guess:
  • Blue Line to Lynn
  • Green Line to Hyde Square
  • Orange Line to Roslindale
 
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bigeman312 said:
My understanding is that OLX can go as far as Roslindale Village while still retaining Needham Line service, but any further and it necessitates property taking and/or suspension of Needham Line service.
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Correct. The ROW and all bridges are tri-track to Rozzie because of an old-timey freight lead that used to run there. You'd be deleting a 2/3 mile section of double-track that exists outside Forest Hills, so additional DT would have to be laid elsewhere on the line to compensate for the meets, and that would incur some on-mode extra costs. And if the CR access to Rozzie Station isn't being deleted entirely you'd have to find room for a new Purple Line platform with the OL Station and busways taking up the current property (offset behind the Citizens Bank + muni lot would probably work just fine). But it wouldn't cost that much to make them coexist. The +1 would solve a lot of the bus cycling and overcrowding problems at Forest Hills by opening up a sub-terminal and significantly culling the route duplication on lower Washington.

The pickle is that the NEC squeeze is urgent if we ever want to implement real Regional Rail...urgent enough that that's most likely the bigger driver for doing the project at all. And you get no relief for the NEC unless you do it all: OLX-W. Rox and GLX-Needham Jct. The T's Rail Vision even admits that it may come to that, as the Needham Line cannot participate in any RER frequency increases as long as it's a one-seat to South Station (the neighborhoods already reacted very negatively to a proposal for higher frequencies but a forced Forest Hills transfer). They may even need to see frequency decreases in the further future with Amtrak's post-Gateway frequency increases. So a lot of the momentum for it is not just in positive advocacy for better transit to these areas, but in avoidance of potential worsening transit (bus and rail) to these same areas.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
Correct. The ROW and all bridges are tri-track to Rozzie because of an old-timey freight lead that used to run there. You'd be deleting a 2/3 mile section of double-track that exists outside Forest Hills, so additional DT would have to be laid elsewhere on the line to compensate for the meets, and that would incur some on-mode extra costs. And if the CR access to Rozzie Station isn't being deleted entirely you'd have to find room for a new Purple Line platform with the OL Station and busways taking up the current property (offset behind the Citizens Bank + muni lot would probably work just fine). But it wouldn't cost that much to make them coexist. The +1 would solve a lot of the bus cycling and overcrowding problems at Forest Hills by opening up a sub-terminal and significantly culling the route duplication on lower Washington.

The pickle is that the NEC squeeze is urgent if we ever want to implement real Regional Rail...urgent enough that that's most likely the bigger driver for doing the project at all. And you get no relief for the NEC unless you do it all: OLX-W. Rox and GLX-Needham Jct. The T's Rail Vision even admits that it may come to that, as the Needham Line cannot participate in any RER frequency increases as long as it's a one-seat to South Station (the neighborhoods already reacted very negatively to a proposal for higher frequencies but a forced Forest Hills transfer). They may even need to see frequency decreases in the further future with Amtrak's post-Gateway frequency increases. So a lot of the momentum for it is not just in positive advocacy for better transit to these areas, but in avoidance of potential worsening transit (bus and rail) to these same areas.
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This has been discussed a lot in old threads on transit pitches. It always makes me sad, knowing that even things that have been on the top shelf for planning seem to take literally 4 decades or worse. Even if OLX and GLX got serious now it wouldnt be a reality til like 2070.
Equilibria said:
Mixed bag from election results. The 2014 referendum on indexing the gas tax lost, but the "Millionaire's Tax" won, with both intended to fund the MBTA.

It's not a question of whether the path works next to the train - I'm sure it does. It's that the Greenway is a quiet gravel path through the (relatively recent, not very pretty) woods, and I think that if you took NUF residents to the new GLX Community Path and said you'd do something like that, they'd reject it flat-out. The Community Path is narrow and seems designed for speeding bikes with its double yellow line.

The nicer rail trails in the system - the Community Path through Davis and the Minuteman - don't share ROW with surface rail.
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Having a train next to a path makes the path less nice. Of course. But that would be more of a local issue than a city wide one. I would be more worried about the concerns of losing a fast ride to downtown... on the other hand, Needham over the years has become more and more bourgeois and fits more closely with Newton and Brookline than Dedham or West Rox. Having easy access to those places might also be an allure of such a GLX. And it also would increase frequencies to a real transit service, regardless, which boosts access compared to the current Purple
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
The pickle is that the NEC squeeze is urgent if we ever want to implement real Regional Rail...urgent enough that that's most likely the bigger driver for doing the project at all. And you get no relief for the NEC unless you do it all: OLX-W. Rox and GLX-Needham Jct. The T's Rail Vision even admits that it may come to that, as the Needham Line cannot participate in any RER frequency increases as long as it's a one-seat to South Station (the neighborhoods already reacted very negatively to a proposal for higher frequencies but a forced Forest Hills transfer). They may even need to see frequency decreases in the further future with Amtrak's post-Gateway frequency increases. So a lot of the momentum for it is not just in positive advocacy for better transit to these areas, but in avoidance of potential worsening transit (bus and rail) to these same areas.
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While I'm certainly glad that OLX/GLX may happen even sooner than I thought, could this be an issue with political justice for Lynn? BLX to Lynn really should have happened by now, especially after they were held off by RLX to Alewife, then GLX, then Red-Blue (which will at least help Lynn directly in the future). I'm sure locals and politicians won't be happy if funding and priority get diverted away from Lynn again, this time in favor of West Roxbury and Needham.
 
Teban54 said:
While I'm certainly glad that OLX/GLX may happen even sooner than I thought, could this be an issue with political justice for Lynn? BLX to Lynn really should have happened by now, especially after they were held off by RLX to Alewife, then GLX, then Red-Blue (which will at least help Lynn directly in the future). I'm sure locals and politicians won't be happy if funding and priority get diverted away from Lynn again, this time in favor of West Roxbury and Needham.
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Worth noting that Lynn has a huge amount of political influence with the MBTA right now and has done bupkus with it to get BLX built. The Mayor is fixated on ferries.
 
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